8 Simple Rules for dating a Duggar Daughter

[Xantippe]

Not to mention intimate communication. And I don’t mean sex talk, or at least not only sex talk, but other things that are a couple’s private domain, even if they do plan to adopt their parents’ model.
Especially with one of the younger children as a chaperone, physical intimacy is not the part I’d miss the most. Adult conversation is what new parents sometimes miss, and these young people discussing marriage get no opportunity to have a real, honest discussion.

That’s a very good point.

Married parents also have a hard time finding the opportunity to have a good, frank, thorough, private chat about important affairs while big kids are up and listening. (Mine are always interrupting and asking for word definitions and explanations of what we’re talking about–I suppose it’s educational.)

To create that situation artificially by assigning courting couples child chaperones is a really bad idea.

 

[sailor28]

Not to mention intimate communication. And I don’t mean sex talk, or at least not only sex talk, but other things that are a couple’s private domain, even if they do plan to adopt their parents’ model.
Especially with one of the younger children as a chaperone, physical intimacy is not the part I’d miss the most. Adult conversation is what new parents sometimes miss, and these young people discussing marriage get no opportunity to have a real, honest discussion.

As someone mentioned earlier in the post these courtship rules could be grounds for an annulment. These couples are not allowed to have conversations alone. I really can not in anyway support this whole scenario as being good. In this case we need to throw the baby out with the bath water. I’ve seen the long term damage this does to people. It is not holy or right. Though, it all looks very, very sweet. Actually the girls are taught to “keep sweet”

Healthy human beings have a range of emotions that include anger, depression, sadness, and frustration. In marriage we need to learn how to feel and express them and work them out in a healthy way. The Duggar’s just do not come across to me as being authentic human beings. We need to be very careful about accepting any of their theology. Gothard has some pretty terrible teachings and they have followed him all along.

 

[robwar]

As someone mentioned earlier in the post these courtship rules could be grounds for an annulment. These couples are not allowed to have conversations alone. I really can not in anyway support this whole scenario as being good. In this case we need to throw the baby out with the bath water. I’ve seen the long term damage this does to people. It is not holy or right. Though, it all looks very, very sweet. Actually the girls are taught to “keep sweet”

Healthy human beings have a range of emotions that include anger, depression, sadness, and frustration. In marriage we need to learn how to feel and express them and work them out in a healthy way. The Duggar’s just do not come across to me as being authentic human beings. We need to be very careful about accepting any of their theology. Gothard has some pretty terrible teachings and they have followed him all along.

THANK-YOU!
I honestly feel very sorry for all the Duggar children. My heart goes out to them.
the web site recoveringgrace.org has some very good first hand articles about the dangers and problems that happen with this kind of “courtship”. It is a set up for real problems later on. I feel for these children not just because they are being raise under Bill Gothard’s horrible teaching but all of this is played out on TV which adds an extra unneccessary pressure to follow and stay put. I pray for all of them.

 

[Ms_Manners]

I don’t watch the show, but I can’t help it, I have to question the motivation or reasoning of any parent who allows such intrusions in their children’s lives.

And the main message I get from these rules, especially when they insist on adult children following them, is that they don’t trust their own parenting or their children.
If you can’t let your adult child have half an hour alone with the person they are planning to marry, something is seriously wrong with the way you raised him/her.

This first generation of Duggar children is in trouble, but if they are treated as children forever, how will they raise their own kids? Imagine their kids or grandkids and how unprepared they will be… There will be some serious problems with the following generations.

 

[DarkLight]

I don’t watch the show, but I can’t help it, I have to question the motivation or reasoning of any parent who allows such intrusions in their children’s lives.

And the main message I get from these rules, especially when they insist on adult children following them, is that they don’t trust their own parenting or their children.
If you can’t let your adult child have half an hour alone with the person they are planning to marry, something is seriously wrong with the way you raised him/her.

This first generation of Duggar children is in trouble, but if they are treated as children forever, how will they raise their own kids? Imagine their kids or grandkids and how unprepared they will be… There will be some serious problems with the following generations.

From what I’ve seen of these sorts of groups being an adult isn’t really expected. You have a rigid set of rules and everyone watches everyone else to make sure they’re followed. Privacy is discouraged. So for example even adults were discouraged from having a private computer, because they might be tempted to look at porn or something.

Generally it’s called “avoiding temptation” or “accountability” or somesuch.

 

[robwar]

From what I’ve seen of these sorts of groups being an adult isn’t really expected. You have a rigid set of rules and everyone watches everyone else to make sure they’re followed. Privacy is discouraged. So for example even adults were discouraged from having a private computer, because they might be tempted to look at porn or something.

Generally it’s called “avoiding temptation” or “accountability” or somesuch.

It is fear based parenting and religion basically. Bill Gothard was a big fan of Charles Finley from the 1800’s who didn’t believe in original sin. When one doesn’t believe in original sin and that sinful choices and ideas come from within, then they tell others that to avoid becoming entrapped in sin, they go to extremes to avoid anything they may think is sinful. Yes, we are to avoid watching, listening, looking at things that promote sin but trying to raise children in a hyper-controlled environment like the Duggars is not any guarantee that these children will not rebel or sin later in life. These children never learn to have internal self control and discipline, they are just taught to obey obey and obey. Charles Finley taught that children need to raised in a hyper-type isolated environment which then will result in adults that moral and holy. That isn’t how it works and the Duggars base all of this on a single man that never has raised children. Look at the Amish, they are raised isolated from the world and in their own isolated communities with like minded people yet they do have a drug and alcohol problem with their teenagers.

 

[twf]

As others have pointed out, I think any tribunal would grant an annulment faster than you can blink if a couple had been forced to court in this manner prior to marriage. There is no true informed adult consent of two parties here- this is emotionally and psychologically abusive parental manipulation. For Catholics, canon law is clear that parents are not to exert pressure in the selection of a spouse, and the requirement of adults to include their parents in all conversations is an obvious intrusion into their private lives.

This is not holiness. This is control and fear.

 

[EmeraldOak]

I don’t watch the show, but I can’t help it, I have to question the motivation or reasoning of any parent who allows such intrusions in their children’s lives.

Same here. I understand the need for virtue but I personally believe they have taken the courtship rules too far. I also believe some of these rules would have to be grounds for annulment. And it really bothers me that they have let their daughters courtships and weddings play out on cable TV. I am embarrassed for them and I don’t even watch the show.

 

[sailor28]

I said it earlier and I’ll say it again, this critique of the Duggars on a Catholic website is new. If you search the web for popular Catholic writers and their articles on the Duggars you will find very little criticism and a lot of praise.

Example here: “Shocker the Duggar Kids are Normal and Happy”

ncregister.com/blog/danielle-bean/shocker-the-duggar-kids-are-happy-and-normal

It is interesting how the Catholic understanding of them as changed as we see the kids enter adulthood. Also, as the truth about Bill Gothard comes out we are much wiser. But how did we fall for it in the first place? Well, it all looked very sweet.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

But how did we fall for it in the first place? Well, it all looked very sweet.

I’m surprised that there were Catholics who allowed themselves to catch on to begin with. With a premise like the Duggars? Really?

 

[ToeInTheWater]

It is interesting how the Catholic understanding of them as changed as we see the kids enter adulthood. Also, as the truth about Bill Gothard comes out we are much wiser. But how did we fall for it in the first place? Well, it all looked very sweet.

I suspect one of the reasons Catholics were initially so quick to defend the Duggars, is the quite simple idea of “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”.

On the surface, the Duggars seem to uphold values that struck a chord with Catholics as well as other conservative Christians, and invited ridicule and disdain from the secular mainstream. A religious married couple who seemed “open to life”, committed to home-schooling, modest dress, and other practices that are certainly not exclusive to the “quiverfull” community.

And while few Catholics would condone the extreme patriarchy of the quiverfull movement, certainly, many Catholics DO believe that traditional gender roles should be followed, that the primary vocation of the majority of women is wife and mother, many DO believe a mother should not work unless absolutely financially necessary, many DO believe in wifely submission, many DO believe in the “marital debt”, even if they don’t think it’s quite as absolute as the Duggars might.

Even the OP and a few others who have posted here in this topic who still seems to hold the Duggar lifestyle as a refreshing change from the lifestyle extolled in most other TV shows, movies; etc; one in which sex has become just another dating ritual with not much more significance than ballroom dancing, one in which men seek not to protect women, but to conquer them sexually to boost their egos; one in which religion and faith is mocked and even attacked.

Also, the initial Duggar shows were fairly superficial and focused on the novelty of a large family, much like “Jon and Kate Plus 8”; how many diapers they go through a day, how many shopping carts they use up in one trip, etc. Although Michelle and Jim Bob DID interject their thoughts and mention their beliefs, I think what we saw on TV didn’t seem that extreme at first.

And certainly, what seemed to be more justifiable as a way to parent minor children, seems less justifiable as a way to “parent” young people who are way over the age of majority.

 

[masondoggy]

As others have pointed out, I think any tribunal would grant an annulment faster than you can blink if a couple had been forced to court in this manner prior to marriage. There is no true informed adult consent of two parties here- this is emotionally and psychologically abusive parental manipulation. For Catholics, canon law is clear that parents are not to exert pressure in the selection of a spouse, and the requirement of adults to include their parents in all conversations is an obvious intrusion into their private lives.

This is not holiness. This is control and fear.

I believe that you are right.

I said it earlier and I’ll say it again, this critique of the Duggars on a Catholic website is new. If you search the web for popular Catholic writers and their articles on the Duggars you will find very little criticism and a lot of praise.

Example here: “Shocker the Duggar Kids are Normal and Happy”

ncregister.com/blog/danielle-bean/shocker-the-duggar-kids-are-happy-and-normal

It is interesting how the Catholic understanding of them as changed as we see the kids enter adulthood. Also, as the truth about Bill Gothard comes out we are much wiser. But how did we fall for it in the first place? Well, it all looked very sweet.

I think that’s because they did a great job of hiding their extremism on the show in the past. Not so much anymore…even aside from the obvious issues with the way they control their adult children but they have really slipped up lately just in their behavior on the show and things that come out of their mouth (like the way michelle freaked out when Jessa and Ben held hands) It’s so obvious that their dating rules are NOT voluntary as they have tried to portray…which is really affecting their credibility.

I think if they keep slipping up like this, their support among Catholics will dwindle quickly.

 

[DarkLight]

I think there’s also a timing issue. Given when these sorts of movements really started, you’re seeing more and more young people like me - people who grew up in movements on various levels of extremism. And a lot of us are finding each other over the internet instead of being lone voices trying to hide the craziness in our lives.

Some of us found our way over to Catholicism and are happy to share our stories with other Catholics.

 

[fpt]

The Catholic paradigm is only the good one. The protestant paradigms, largo sensu, like the “quiverfullism” (the quiverfull movement), are not good models for catholics because inside there are many heresies and ideologies, and there is a lack of balance, of moderation, of temperaments. This family is touched by many strange intellectual approaches far away from the deep and true catholicism (universality, neutrality, super-naturality and morality). Of course, there can have many sharings with catholicism, but the great differences are: the differences of nature and / or the differences of level / degree. This family should struggle against her wrong positions: the theoretical providentialism of the procreation, the absolute pro-creationism, the absolute natalism, the race to the ultra-large family, the female condition in general (rights, obligations, duties, roles, functions, competences, liberties, responsibilities) and the female condition within the marriage (rights, obligations, duties, roles, functions, competences, liberties, responsibilities), the only essentialist view of the female nature, the only essentialist view of the male nature, the primacy of males on the females, the primacy of clan on each human person, the wrong reaction to the radical feminism, the nostalgia of past times concerning the couple and the family (the modern form of puritanism in the social life, a neo-form of victorianism in the social life), a deep obsession about sins of flesh, a particular view on the modesty and the decency in the garment, the non respect of the the family life via the TV shows and Co (may be it is a form of indecency).

As catholic persons, in my humble opinion, we do not have to support their tips for establishing an ideal world. With them, we have to be prudent and thus to try to discern very deeply. With this family, not to be naive is my rule. Do you wish to live inside their world? As catholic, not at all.

 

[fpt]

The Catholic paradigm is only the good one. The protestant paradigms, largo sensu, like the “quiverfullism” (the quiverfull movement), are not good models for catholics because inside there are many heresies and ideologies, and there is a lack of balance, of moderation, of temperaments. This family is touched by many strange intellectual approaches far away from the deep and true catholicism (universality, naturality, super-naturality and morality). Of course, there can** be** many sharings with catholicism, but the great differences are: the differences of nature and / or the differences of level / degree. This family should struggle against her wrong positions: the theoretical providentialism of the procreation, the absolute pro-creationism, the absolute natalism, the race to the ultra-large family, the female condition in general (rights, obligations, duties, roles, functions, competences, liberties, responsibilities) and the female condition within the marriage (rights, obligations, duties, roles, functions, competences, liberties, responsibilities), the only essentialist view of the female nature, the only essentialist view of the male nature, the primacy of males on the females, the primacy of clan on each human person, the wrong reaction to the radical feminism, the nostalgia of past times concerning the couple and the family (the modern form of puritanism in the social life, a neo-form of victorianism in the social life), a deep obsession about sins of flesh, a particular view on the modesty and the decency in the garment, the non respect of the the family life via the TV shows and Co (may be it is a form of indecency).

As catholic persons, in my humble opinion, we do not have to support their tips for establishing an ideal world. With them, we have to be prudent and thus to try to discern very deeply. With this family, not to be naive is my rule. Do you wish to live inside their world? As catholic, not at all.

The “discipline” of this family seems to be very strong. She seems to live like in a monastery or a seminary. Who is her mentor? Who is the chief of their religious beliefs? What is the intellectual position of the local bishop about their Shows and co? What is the local reaction of catholic lay persons about them? This family seems to be into another world.

 

[Sky_River]

I’ve known way too many Catholic couples living together before marriage and/or getting pregnant before being married.** I really appreciate the Duggars giving an example to the country on how to be chaste and date in a way that honors God and each other.**

Single Catholics, are you dating in a way that gives witness to Christ in the world? When you see how many abortions happen each year, know the world is desperate for your good example!

tlc.com/tv-shows/19-kids-and-counting/games-and-more/rules-dating-duggar-daughter.htm?mkcpgn=fbtlc1&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=19Kids&Counting

I disagree. I think the Duggars are too puritanical and legalistic. Why is it wrong for a couple to be together in PUBLIC without a chaperone? Nothing sexual could possibly happen in public. They remind me of middle eastern people with their rules.

 

[fpt]

The Duggar family is linked **to protestant movements, largo sensu (officially not quiverfull and Co, but very near, like the theoretical providentialism of the procreation, the absolute pro-creationism, the absolute natalism, the race to the ultra-large family). **In addition, there are the female condition in general (rights, obligations, duties, roles, functions, competences, liberties, responsibilities), the female condition within the marriage (rights, obligations, duties, roles, functions, competences, liberties, responsibilities), the only essentialist view of the female nature, the only essentialist view of the male nature, the primacy of males on the females, the deep power of father on his daughters (no equality and equity between the sons and the daughters), the primacy of clan on each human person, the wrong reaction to the radical feminism, the nostalgia of past times concerning the couple and the family (the modern form of puritanism in the social life, a neo-form of victorianism in the social life), a deep obsession about sins of flesh and a particular view on the modesty and the decency in the garment.…etc…

This family does not have the true catholic understanding of things, in the details with all subtleties. This family is touched by some heresies and ideologies about: the ends of marriage, the condition of woman, the condition of wife and Co. Only, the teaching of Roman Catholic Church, in the details, with all subtleties and with Faith and reason and Reason and Faith, has to be followed by the catholic lay persons: not more and not less.

We need to avoid the catholic mentalities of morality coming from the U.S.A. and from English speaking countries, in order to understand the deep view of Catholicism. Those English lands are touched culturally by some heresies about the material nature of human beings. In the USA and in the English speaking countries there’s still a significant undercurrent of Puritan beliefs, and even more, some “catholics” are polluted by this cultural poison. The european countries are more moderated and balanced, even if we have our own heresies, of course. **A big work of purification (in the catholic way) in the several dimensions of the human nature should be done. Catholic education is very important. **

The views on the conjugal sexual needs of the husband are strange, curious and more. In general, their moral paradigm is not very fair.

 

[fpt]

In addition, this family is touched by a form of** pharisaism**, by a form of jansenism, by a form of puritanism, by a form of** externalism **and by a form of judgmentalism. In reality, inside this family, there are many heresies and ideologies in link with the human nature: there’s a significant undercurrent of Puritan beliefs about the body and Co.

The discipline of life of Duggar’s family is very particular and is full of wrong intellectual approaches on the duties, obligations and rights. Not a model for the catholics, in my humble opinion.

 

[genevieve2K]

I haven’t read this whole thread, but for those debating what is morally permissible for Catholics while dating, this homily is helpful: audiosancto.org/sermon/20040912-Dating-6th-and-9th-Commandments.html

 

[sailor28]

I took a few minutes to listen to the posted audio at audiosancto. I’ve listen to sermons from this website before. It definitely promotes the most narrow and rigid view possible on all topics.

I listened to the 1st 7 minutes. Here is what is promoted for dating:

“Avoid as much as possible being alone with one another and speaking confidentially with one another or looking at one another” (Quotes because I am not making it up or paraphrasing) This is where the concept of a needed chaperone comes in. I stopped here. No need to listen to the whole 20 minutes. We already know these kind of severe rules cause damage and are potential grounds for annulment. I could have listened to the whole thing to make sure he was not talking about 16yr old dating. However, I am already familiar with this site and he was talking about men and women, not teens.

As we can see the Duggar theology is present in the Catholic Church. Mostly from those who believe Latin Mass is the better way to worship the Lord.

Genevieve, I’ve seen you drop a post before and leave one of these audios without writing any words. I know you are trying to evangelize Catholics to the Truth. I’m sure you know you’ll get a response from people. Maybe say a few words next time and lay out some of the guidelines and share a bit about how this worked for you.