8 Simple Rules for dating a Duggar Daughter

[masondoggy]

I think that’s a very good point.

That’s one of the reasons why I am personally against newlyweds living with parents. You’re probably going to have at least a couple of big newlywed fights initially, and it’s important to be able to express disagreements without having any third parties chiming in or “helping.”

I find that when visiting in-laws, not being able to speak my mind to my husband in front of the in-laws is one of the primary burdens.

To have absolutely no ability to have a private disagreement about anything before getting married is interpersonally crippling.

Actually, I take back what I said because I think I know the answer. There’s no marital fighting involved because the women are taught to strictly obey their husbands and never to challenge them. So I guess there would be no fighting or disagreements going on.

 

[petitfleur]

Sounds like a far reaching conspiracy involving the highest TV executives. Much like sister wives championed homosexual marriage.

I know how much you like to get the last word in. You like the Duggars, great. You want to model some of their ideas ok fine. If you want to watch them and only watch on a very superficial level, no problem. I can see why they would be nice wholesome entertainment. I think it’s nice for kids to see people who choose to be chaste.
You keep defending them but completely ignore vital pieces of information. You don’t seemed to of looked up any of the things we have discussed.Your basing this all of what you choose to see on a show then cherry pick some of Michelle’s quotes to suit your argument.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Interesting.

A side note. But trust me, I will get back to the point if I can have a little leeway your honor…

About a month ago my athiest/agnostic mother was visiting us. I have three girls in soccer. She likes to come to the games and watch them. The league we have them in is a church run league. God is incorporated into practices, games and home assignments (memorize a Bible Verse.) The Program is not Catholic but is not contrary to our Catholic beliefs in it’s exposure to Christ for children. The coach is giving a pregame speech to the 9 year old team my eldest daughter is on. He says that we are to honor Jesus with our play. That we are to play and do all as if Jesus was with us at all times. And then he says “what are we to do?” And the Children answer “Honor Jesus”

My mother leans into me and says, “Boy, sure sounds like a lot of brainwashing to to me!” and was concerned. I immediately got defensive. I told her if she thought that was brainwashing then she ought to see our Catholic Homeschool curriculum. We got into a huge blowup and both felt uneasy with the other.

So, I am then relaying the story to my wife and my main point was that my mom accused us of brainwashing our children with our religion and how that set me off. My wife just smiles and says, “:Well you should have just agreed with her” Her point was that we are brainwashing our children as much as anyone does. When we as Catholics tell a 7 year old that the Body and Blood is present in the bread and wine they see, we are “brainwashing” them. When we say that premarital sex is bad and they should not sin, we are brainwashing them. And when we tell them that America is the land of the free and the home of the brave, we are brainwashing them. It is our job as parents.

I guess I don’t understand. From everything you’ve ever said here it seems that you have a very smart, accomplished, vivacious wife who you are very proud of. You met, fell in love, and freely chose each other as two unique, developed human beings. You are the head of your family, and that’s a role that you were able to assume because of the trustworthiness that you displayed to your wife while you were dating.

Had you been under the Duggar’s rules, your wife wouldn’t have anything in the way of an education or career. You would not be able to homeschool your children. You would not have known a single private thought or musing of hers that had not gone through her father first. You would never have been able to tell your girlfriend or fiance anything without her father over your shoulder judging it all.

I know that you’re very protective of your children, but would you really deny them what you and your wife have in favor of this? If you still think it’s a good idea for you to be that in control of your daughters, at least think of your sons. Imagine how humiliating it would be to go through this song and dance just to appease your hyper-controlling future FIL. It’s downright emasculatimg and would probably hinder his efforts to lead his own family after the wedding.

I also understand that you hate and fear the possible influence of secular societ on your kids. But by swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction purely as a response-you are still letting secular society dictate your life, rather than living out your own Catholic faith and values.

 

[masondoggy]

I guess I don’t understand. From everything you’ve ever said here it seems that you have a very smart, accomplished, vivacious wife who you are very proud of. You met, fell in love, and freely chose each other as two unique, developed human beings. You are the head of your family, and that’s a role that you were able to assume because of the trustworthiness that you displayed to your wife while you were dating.

Had you been under the Duggar’s rules, your wife wouldn’t have anything in the way of an education or career. You would not be able to homeschool your children. You would not have known a single private thought or musing of hers that had not gone through her father first. You would never have been able to tell your girlfriend or fiance anything without her father over your shoulder judging it all.

I know that you’re very protective of your children, but would you really deny them what you and your wife have in favor of this? If you still think it’s a good idea for you to be that in control of your daughters, at least think of your sons. Imagine how humiliating it would be to go through this song and dance just to appease your hyper-controlling future FIL. It’s downright emasculatimg and would probably hinder his efforts to lead his own family after the wedding.

I also understand that you hate and fear the possible influence of secular societ on your kids. But by swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction purely as a response-you are still letting secular society dictate your life, rather than living out your own Catholic faith and values.

And secular dating doesn’t always doom a relationship anyway. DH and I had a typical secular dating period including premarital sex and all that. But thank God for the Confessional and the forgiveness of sins! That is all behind me, I have genuinely repented and been forgiven, and DESPITE the mistakes we made while dating, we have one of the best marriages of anybody I know. We are soul mates and if we hadn’t been given the freedom to get to know each other through dating without being smothered by rules, we never would have discovered that.

I feel so lucky and blessed to share a marriage with my best friend who is the perfect match for me. I want the type of relationship we have for everybody else. I would hope that Jess and Ben/Jill and Derrick get to have such a great marital relationship. But from my perspective, with the rules and restrictions they have imposed on them, it will be very , very hard to find the right person for them. The chances are very high that they could wind up with a horrible match simply because they didn’t have the chance to really get to know each other and that makes me sad for them.

 

[Xantippe]

And secular dating doesn’t always doom a relationship anyway. DH and I had a typical secular dating period including premarital sex and all that. But thank God for the Confessional and the forgiveness of sins! That is all behind me, I have genuinely repented and been forgiven, and DESPITE the mistakes we made while dating, we have one of the best marriages of anybody I know. We are soul mates and if we hadn’t been given the freedom to get to know each other through dating without being smothered by rules, we never would have discovered that.

I feel so lucky and blessed to share a marriage with my best friend who is the perfect match for me. I want the type of relationship we have for everybody else. I would hope that Jess and Ben/Jill and Derrick get to have such a great marital relationship. But from my perspective, with the rules and restrictions they have imposed on them, it will be very , very hard to find the right person for them. The chances are very high that they could wind up with a horrible match simply because they didn’t have the chance to really get to know each other and that makes me sad for them.

Yes.

There are too many barriers preventing the girls from having a good choice of mates.

Plus, the reality show format is going to distort relationships. What, for example, if one of the girls discovers that she shouldn’t marry the guy who is courting her? When you’re living this out in front of millions of people, there’s no graceful off-ramp out of a bad relationship. There’s too much pressure in this situation to pull off a successful and photogenic match on a schedule so as to keep up ratings and the magazine covers coming.

 

[casslean]

You are condemning a vast majority of the world both current and ancient and labeling them a cult. When the Catholic Church has many of the same “rules” the Duggars have.

You can’t isolate out individual rules and say “Well, it’s not fair to criticize because the Catholic Church teaches this same thing.”

It isn’t the effect of individual rules that is problematic. It’s the effect of the entire set of rules on these children’s (and especially these girls’) lives.

Further, the Catholic Church has teachings rather than mandates. I choose to live a chaste life before marriage, practice modesty, etc. because I believe in those teachings. Think of the advice given here if a parent says their teenage child is not following the teachings of the Catholic Church. Parents are advised to pray, talk to their children about why they are abandoning those teachings, show compassion, and kindness - the message is not to exert such severe control over your children that they cannot make those choices - it is to encourage them not to.

I’m not sure I’d call it a cult. I do agree it has many, many elements I find very troubling, including elements I find troubling from the child protection perspective. I’m also not convinced we should be willing to save it under the “religious freedom” defense. Religious freedom cannot and should not be used to protect someone’s right to harm anyone, let alone a child. There is no question in this day and age that abuse can be entirely psychological or mental, and that such abuse can have devastating effects. This may be a situation that requires greater scrutiny.

 

[Xantippe]

You can’t isolate out individual rules and say “Well, it’s not fair to criticize because the Catholic Church teaches this same thing.”

It isn’t the effect of individual rules that is problematic. It’s the effect of the entire set of rules on these children’s (and especially these girls’) lives.

Yes.

And as Catholics, we have a variety of different acceptable lifestyles to live. In that world, there is only one per gender.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I know how much you like to get the last word in. You like the Duggars, great. You want to model some of their ideas ok fine. If you want to watch them and only watch on a very superficial level, no problem. I can see why they would be nice wholesome entertainment. I think it’s nice for kids to see people who choose to be chaste.
You keep defending them but completely ignore vital pieces of information. You don’t seemed to of looked up any of the things we have discussed.Your basing this all of what you choose to see on a show then cherry pick some of Michelle’s quotes to suit your argument.

You can make your points without personal attacks. Saying I have to get the last word in is a personal attack. Please just be charitable.

I didn’t cherry pick anything, I provided a quote directly on the subject from a Duggar. I would like to see some quotes from other posters about the accusations and judgement that are thrown about against a family living their faith.

Where are all the quotes showing all the cultishness and patriarchy child abuse?

 

[petitfleur]

You can make your points without personal attacks. Saying I have to get the last word in is a personal attack. Please just be charitable.

I didn’t cherry pick anything, I provided a quote directly on the subject from a Duggar. I would like to see some quotes from other posters about the accusations and judgement that are thrown about against a family living their faith.

Where are all the quotes showing all the cultishness and patriarchy child abuse?

I tried but you ignore it and keep using the same argument over and over. You also won’t answer specific questions directed at you. I can’t do anything about that.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I tried but you ignore it and keep using the same argument over and over. You also won’t answer specific questions directed at you. I can’t do anything about that.

You win. You are right.

 

[masondoggy]

You can make your points without personal attacks. Saying I have to get the last word in is a personal attack. Please just be charitable.

I didn’t cherry pick anything, I provided a quote directly on the subject from a Duggar. I would like to see some quotes from other posters about the accusations and judgement that are thrown about against a family living their faith.

Where are all the quotes showing all the cultishness and patriarchy child abuse?

There have been several quotes provided in both threads on this subject as well as links to the information about Gothard and his camp.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

There have been several quotes provided in both threads on this subject as well as links to the information about Gothard and his camp.

This thread is about the Duggars. Nor Gothard. I suppose that you could start a thread about Gothard if you wish.

Though I feel we must be careful when throwing stones in this area.

Here is a quote from a father.

Passionate kissing is an exclusive expression of affection. It is not the ordinary way people relate to just anybody. While you may like each other, your relationship is not exclusive yet. You are both free to go your separate ways. Passionate kissing is appropriate when it is in sync with the exclusive relationship that we call marriage.

Not so different from what a duggar might say on TV,

Who was this father you ask? What brand of cult does he belong to?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=901822

I just find it odd how absolutely condemning people are of this family and of some of the values when it is not that different from our own. It seems to me in a time of family abuses of divorce, homosexual marriage, blended families and baby mommas that there is so much attention and criticism of the Duggars. Is there a family on TV that does it better? Maybe.

 

[Xantippe]

You can make your points without personal attacks. Saying I have to get the last word in is a personal attack. Please just be charitable.

I didn’t cherry pick anything, I provided a quote directly on the subject from a Duggar. I would like to see some quotes from other posters about the accusations and judgement that are thrown about against a family living their faith.

Where are all the quotes showing all the cultishness and patriarchy child abuse?

Here’s a quote from three years ago:

“Several of the kids have started with CollegePlus! an online program that allows students to earn college credit, and potentially an entire degree, in a fraction of the time, at a fraction of the cost. “We’ve had several friends that have gotten a four-year degree in about eighteen months from College Plus!” Jim Bob announced during our interview.”

duggarfamilyblog.com/2011/02/duggars-on-college.html

Ummm–that is not very reassuring. Real, honest to goodness four-year-degrees take four years to get through, give or take a year, unless you are amazingly brilliant.

The kids get marginal educations and study for iffy credentials (like the online degrees and the CPM), they are qualified for at best lower-middle class jobs, they are encouraged to marry young, and they are encouraged to have large families. Taken all together, it’s a recipe for failure, and it’s setting them up for a life of dependence, either on public assistance or the Duggar family dole.

I personally just can’t get over the idea of having a daughter marry a 19-year-old suitor. Gah! If you look at the stats on men’s age at first marriage in the US, the medians from 1890 to 2010 never dip below 22 years of age. The lowest median age (1950 and 1960) is 22.8 years of age for men. A 19 year old guy is almost always pretty callow.

infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html

 

[masondoggy]

This thread is about the Duggars. Nor Gothard. I suppose that you could start a thread about Gothard if you wish.

Though I feel we must be careful when throwing stones in this area.

Here is a quote from a father.

Not so different from what a duggar might say on TV,

Who was this father you ask? What brand of cult does he belong to?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=901822

I just find it odd how absolutely condemning people are of this family and of some of the values when it is not that different from our own. It seems to me in a time of family abuses of divorce, homosexual marriage, blended families and baby mommas that there is so much attention and criticism of the Duggars. Is there a family on TV that does it better? Maybe.

Well, as I said before, I have never been one of the Duggar critics in the past. I have followed their show and found them to be a very nice family that are doing a great job raising good kids. I have been their defender in the past…until now. It’s the things that are coming out recently as they push the relationships of their adult daughters to the public as if it’s something to look up to and emulate. I see serious, serious warning flags and I’m speaking up now. What they are portraying is NOT Catholic and has no business being praised on a Catholic message board as if it’s something we should try with our own kids, imo. Let’s stick with the teachings of Theology of the Body instead of promoting a heretical view about women.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Here’s a quote from three years ago:

“Several of the kids have started with CollegePlus! an online program that allows students to earn college credit, and potentially an entire degree, in a fraction of the time, at a fraction of the cost. “We’ve had several friends that have gotten a four-year degree in about eighteen months from College Plus!” Jim Bob announced during our interview.”

duggarfamilyblog.com/2011/02/duggars-on-college.html

Ummm–that is not very reassuring. Real, honest to goodness four-year-degrees take four years to get through, give or take a year, unless you are amazingly brilliant.

The kids get marginal educations and study for iffy credentials (like the online degrees and the CPM), they are qualified for at best lower-middle class jobs, they are encouraged to marry young, and they are encouraged to have large families. Taken all together, it’s a recipe for failure, and it’s setting them up for a life of dependence, either on public assistance or the Duggar family dole.

I personally just can’t get over the idea of having a daughter marry a 19-year-old suitor. Gah! If you look at the stats on men’s age at first marriage in the US, the medians from 1890 to 2010 never dip below 22 years of age. The lowest median age (1950 and 1960) is 22.8 years of age for men. A 19 year old guy is almost always pretty callow.

infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html

My wife’s BS/and Theology Degree was in 3 years. My theology degree was in 3 my BS took longer than that. My wife is finishing a MBA in Dec that will have taken 1 year.

College these days is offering many different ways to learn. The Future probably will not be so bright you need to wear shades for many brick and mortar colleges. Online degrees are not only expanding but in some cases are better than their traditional counterparts. In the business world an online executive MBA can hold much more education and reputation than
a traditional one.
My children, even though homeschooled are going to be well prepared for college. But only the ones who wish to pursue a degree for a career will be encouraged to go. And many homeschool programs offer a high school degree.

The examples my daughters have in their mother who is a scientist student mother and preggers make me happy for them. But in no way does that mean that they should or should not go to college. And I sure will not be able to foot the bill for however many kids we have. That is also a reason they are not in Catholic Schools. 5 kids so far? College is something they will do if it is the right thing for them and their futures. Not like most these days who just go to college because “I don’t know what else to do”

 

[Xantippe]

Here is a quote from a father.

Not so different from what a duggar might say on TV,

Who was this father you ask? What brand of cult does he belong to?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=901822

**I think Fr. Serpa is off base, but there’s a lot of air between his discouraging passionate kissing between a boyfriend and girlfriend who are apparently kissing to enliven a boring evening of TV, and discouraging any kissing at all before marriage, even between fiances. It’s arguable, in fact, that on Fr. Serpa’s principles, engagement provides the sort of exclusivity that would make passionate kissing appropriate (when prudent).

I’d personally advise that the physical relationship should reflect and not outpace the relationship as a whole, so that the physical relationship should not be expressing stuff that isn’t true of the relationship. Hence, sex is for marriage, while passionate kissing could be appropriate for an engaged couple.
**

I just find it odd how absolutely condemning people are of this family and of some of the values when it is not that different from our own. It seems to me in a time of family abuses of divorce, homosexual marriage, blended families and baby mommas that there is so much attention and criticism of the Duggars. Is there a family on TV that does it better? Maybe.

I think being on reality TV for years is a strike against them. I would not expose my children to that sort of invasion of their privacy, and I have a hard time respecting anybody who would.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Well, as I said before, I have never been one of the Duggar critics in the past. I have followed their show and found them to be a very nice family that are doing a great job raising good kids. I have been their defender in the past…until now. It’s the things that are coming out recently as they push the relationships of their adult daughters to the public as if it’s something to look up to and emulate. I see serious, serious warning flags and I’m speaking up now. What they are portraying is NOT Catholic and has no business being praised on a Catholic message board as if it’s something we should try with our own kids, imo. Let’s stick with the teachings of Theology of the Body instead of promoting a heretical view about women.

As a Catholic I agree with you. As a TV watcher I just find it one of the best and nicest shows that align the closest with our faith and views.

Hey, TLC! Take note, there are a ton of people who just want to see a Catholic version of the Duggars. I nominate my family. You are welcome to call me anytime. I am a stay at home homeschooling dad of 4 kids with one one the way and we are counterculture from our faith, to our family dynamics!

 

[Walking_Home]

Well, as I said before, I have never been one of the Duggar critics in the past. I have followed their show and found them to be a very nice family that are doing a great job raising good kids. I have been their defender in the past…until now. It’s the things that are coming out recently as they push the relationships of their adult daughters to the public as if it’s something to look up to and emulate. I see serious, serious warning flags and I’m speaking up now. What they are portraying is NOT Catholic and has no business being praised on a Catholic message board as if it’s something we should try with our own kids, imo. Let’s stick with the teachings of Theology of the Body instead of promoting a heretical view about women.

---

Bingo-- yes.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think being on reality TV for years is a strike against them. I would not expose my children to that sort of invasion of their privacy, and I have a hard time respecting anybody who would.

Yeah and I was totally joking in my post above about nominating my family.

If the argument was that the duggars were harming their children by the sheer fact of being on reality tv I would probably join right in the criticism.

We will find out in the future how close to a “cult” this family is There is no way 20 people live under Jim Bob’s reign of terror without Barbara Walters interviewing some poor Dugger child 20 years from now about the sheer horrors of a father that loved them.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think Fr. Serpa is off base, but there’s a lot of air between his discouraging passionate kissing between a boyfriend and girlfriend who are apparently kissing to enliven a boring evening of TV, and discouraging any kissing at all before marriage, even between fiances. It’s arguable, in fact, that on Fr. Serpa’s principles, engagement provides the sort of exclusivity that would make passionate kissing appropriate (when prudent).

I’d personally advise that the physical relationship should reflect and not outpace the relationship as a whole, so that the physical relationship should not be expressing stuff that isn’t true of the relationship. Hence, sex is for marriage, while passionate kissing could be appropriate for an engaged couple…

Off base? Perhaps. But you of course would stop short of thowing out the abusive controlling cult label right?

BTW would you allow passionate kissing for a 16 year old non engaged person?