8 Simple Rules for dating a Duggar Daughter

[Xantippe]

This is not a thread about their religious affiliation and how we should stay away from it. The purpose of this thread was to look at how their dating rules honors God and each other for the couple. I’ve seen too many pregnancies and living together couples and wished to discuss that. We as Catholics can do better than we are.

Let’s give it 10 years.

We’ll see if the Duggar kids are still married to the same people at that point.

I know that’s an awful thing to say, but at least some of them have so many things going against them: being young themselves, marrying very young spouses, lacking an education, lacking the ability to support themselves at the US median, starting to have kids immediately, lacking their own home turf, the presence of a powerful patriarch figure, not to mention living their private lives on reality TV. Aside from a strong religious faith, having several of those factors in play is a doomsday scenario for a young marriage.

 

[masondoggy]

This is not a thread about their religious affiliation and how we should stay away from it. The purpose of this thread was to look at how their dating rules honors God and each other for the couple. I’ve seen too many pregnancies and living together couples and wished to discuss that. We as Catholics can do better than we are.

Their religious affiliation has everything to do with their courtship rules and the type of “dating” that they are advocating on their show.

 

[masondoggy]

I wish that all our kids got a post secondary education and lived on their own, supported themselves, travelled a bit, before getting married. It’s a great idea. However, why do our Catholic young women, when they go out on their own, move in with a boyfriend? The world does that, but why is our Catholic youth following the world for dating and married life? I am not going to criticize a young Duggar lady staying at home and saving money for her future.

Saving what money? A Duggar daughter is not allowed to have a job to have her own money to save.

Her complete dependance on her parents as an adult is used to keep her in line.

 

[DarkLight]

I wish that all our kids got a post secondary education and lived on their own, supported themselves, travelled a bit, before getting married. It’s a great idea. However, why do our Catholic young women, when they go out on their own, move in with a boyfriend? The world does that, but why is our Catholic youth following the world for dating and married life? I am not going to criticize a young Duggar lady staying at home and saving money for her future.

How much choice does she have? If she tries to go to college she’ll be kicked out of her home and forbidden from seeing her siblings whom she helped raise. She has never held a job and quite likely doesn’t have any idea how to apply for one, nor does she have so much as a recognized high school degree.

And that is leaving aside psychological issues. As someone who grew up closer to that movement, so much as thinking that you might possibly want to do something different is an attack of the devil and you must put it out of your mind as quickly as possible. It is very hard to break out of that.

You ask a good question, but going to an over-controlled life that leaves few options for young women is not the answer. This is cultic level control, plain and simple, and it’s no more a solution than phariseeism ever is. In fact, from my experience, if a girl does make the choice to not stay home with her parents she’s probably even more vulnerable because she feels like she’s already “ruined”, and she has no experience or idea of resisting temptation on her own.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

I wish that all our kids got a post secondary education and lived on their own, supported themselves, travelled a bit, before getting married. It’s a great idea. However, why do our Catholic young women, when they go out on their own, move in with a boyfriend? The world does that, but why is our Catholic youth following the world for dating and married life? I am not going to criticize a young Duggar lady staying at home and saving money for her future.

I wouldn’t criticize someone for staying at home for awhile and saving money for the future, either. But in the case of the Duggars and other young women in their movement, it is not a choice. The girls and women are required to stay at home and “serve their father” (that is the exact wording used) until they get married. They also are not allowed to go to college or get a job outside the home, in most cases. So it’s not even as if they are working a job and saving money for their future. They are entirely dependent on their family for support (unless of course, they rebel and move out; and even then, it’s a hard road because they likely would not have a support network out in the world and don’t have an education or job skills to put on their resume).

Edit to add: I didn’t see Dark Light’s post above before I wrote this; it looks like she is saying essentially the same thing. Certainly, I agree with Penny that our young people need good models for dating and marriage, and that we as a Church need to do a better job with education and catechesis in this area. But I don’t think the Duggars are the role model we want to look to.

 

[Vicki_T]

Michelle Duggar was recently quoted as saying that once a Duggar girl is married, she is NOT ALLOWED to say no to having sex with her husband if he wants to have sex. How can that NOT be interpretted as marital rape???

 

[Xantippe]

Same thing here. What’s missing is an expectation of being mature. It’s the father controlling the relationship - how many of you would want to marry a spouse when you hadn’t been able to so much as have a private conversation? It practically ensures that you haven’t had a chance to really get to know your spouse.

**Yes. There are so many people who keep up a good front in public but turn out to be very different in private.

This system guarantees that the daughters will only know the “public” face of the man before marrying him.**

And this only works if you accept the whole package deal. Keep in mind the daughters they’re talking to are 20 and 22 and not allowed to go to a real college or have jobs outside the home. Judging by the resources the duggars use, if they did so in defiance of their parents they would both lose financial support (and they probably have no idea how to get a job) and be forbidden to speak to their siblings.

These rules would be impossible on a woman who held a job outside the home or went to college without staying with her parents. Would her father supervise her contact with male classmates or coworkers as well? Would she be forbidden to stay late at the office or work on a project with a male friend unless there was a sibling or other approved chaperone around?

Right.

 

[Xantippe]

Michelle Duggar was recently quoted as saying that once a Duggar girl is married, she is NOT ALLOWED to say no to having sex with her husband if he wants to have sex. How can that NOT be interpretted as marital rape???

And it’s such an inappropriate thing to say about one’s children.

Also, what if the husband wants his wife to be able to say no when she’s not interested?

 

[masondoggy]

Michelle Duggar was recently quoted as saying that once a Duggar girl is married, she is NOT ALLOWED to say no to having sex with her husband if he wants to have sex. How can that NOT be interpretted as marital rape???

That’s exactly what it is.

 

[DarkLight]

And it’s such an inappropriate thing to say about one’s children.

Also, what if the husband wants his wife to be able to say no when she’s not interested?

Judging from what I was taught, a good woman is never interested in sex. Sex is a thing men want and women use to make sure they marry.

 

[PennyinCanada]

The 2 older girls were studying to be midwives and assisted on many births. They did have this job and were away from home to help with the births. I imagine they didn’t do it for free either.

The oldest son Josh who is married and his wife talked about their first kiss on their wedding day and how special it was and how glad they were when the other sisters made that decision. They had the biggest smiles looking back on that day. They did not give the impression at all that they were under the heal of the dad and were forced to follow ‘the rules’.

There is a whole bunch of stuff being brought in this thread to derail it, which I thought would happen. Let’s pray that our youth and young adults, who we have left in the Church, find a joy in Christ and are a light to the world that they can be. May God help us.

 

[masondoggy]

The 2 older girls were studying to be midwives and assisted on many births. They did have this job and were away from home to help with the births. I imagine they didn’t do it for free either.

The oldest son Josh who is married and his wife talked about their first kiss on their wedding day and how special it was and how glad they were when the other sisters made that decision. They had the biggest smiles looking back on that day. They did not give the impression at all that they were under the heal of the dad and were forced to follow ‘the rules’.

From what I saw on the show, they were in a training program and are still students. They have never said whether they will actually pursue that as an actual paying job. I have my doubts because Michelle just stated on one of the last episodes that they send their kids out two by two in the world, they are not allowed to go out alone. So the only way I see them actually working in that field is if the girls get a job together. that’s unlikely since Jill is married and pregnant now.

I would be VERY surprised if we see Jana actually working as a paid doula on her own. Unless she rebels.

 

[Vicki_T]

I just don’t like the Duggars. At all. I think they are way too controlling and abusive. How can their children be in healthy relationships when every single word and action is supervised and monitored, when things as innocent as hand holding and hugging is prohibited, and they are basically RUSHED into marriage without really even getting to know the other person. I feel so bad for their poor kids. They are so abused and brainwashed and have no freedom. It’s just so sad.

 

[Vicki_T]

I don’t follow the show because I can’t stand them, but are all the Duggar children expected to be reduced to nothing but baby making machines like their parents?

 

[Xantippe]

The 2 older girls were studying to be midwives and assisted on many births. They did have this job and were away from home to help with the births. I imagine they didn’t do it for free either.

**They didn’t study to be actual nurse midwives, though, right? They were studying to be CPMs, which is a non-credential. (I believe it is no longer recognized in Canada.) Here’s a rundown of the difference between a CNM and a CPM:

sddocsformidwives.org/?q=node/16**

Very briefly, a CNM is an actual nurse with additional training and she is qualified to work in a hospital in labor and delivery. CPMs, on the other hand, are not generally nurses and they are not allowed to work in hospitals. They often train via apprenticeship under other CPMs and they are considered qualified after attending only 40 births.

If the Duggar girls had become CNMs, that would be quite impressive. CNMs can make a good salary. CPM training isn’t impressive and CPMs have a bad safety record in the US. They have become notorious for doing high-risk deliveries at home and ignoring or not recognizing danger signs.

The oldest son Josh who is married and his wife talked about their first kiss on their wedding day and how special it was and how glad they were when the other sisters made that decision. They had the biggest smiles looking back on that day. They did not give the impression at all that they were under the heal of the dad and were forced to follow ‘the rules’.

 

[masondoggy]

CPM’s basically can only do homebirths. They are not medical professionals.

A CNM is a registered nurse who has gone to graduate school to further her education in midwifery. It is the equivalent of a nurse practitioner. CNM’s can prescribe meds just like a doctor.

 

[masondoggy]

Fwiw, I don’t have any issues with couples saving the first kiss for marriage or limiting contact to hand holding…if it’s THEIR choice. In this case, even though they try to make it appear that it is their choice, it clearly is NOT. It is Jim Bob’s rule and they are expected to obey him.

There’s nothing romantic about a couple saving their kiss for the wedding because daddy won’t allow them to even be alone together or have a private conversation.

 

[Sarcelle]

Having an able-bodied spinster daughter at home for decades sounds like a real drag to me. Conceivably, we might wind up living with a single adult child, but that would be a choice on all of our parts, not an arrangements we would consider God’s plan for our family that we would rigidly adhere to, no matter how much discomfort and inconvenience it caused all of us. I do not see myself policing the chastity of middle aged children.

And even from the prospective husband’s point of view–how is he to know what his intended would do with freedom if she’s never had it before? Also, if marriage is the only way out from under parental authority, daughters may marry just about anybody to get out. (That has been known to happen.)

I feel like this particular style of parenting fetishizes virginity for the unmarried at the expense of common sense and the future well-being of the couple and their future children.

Well technically the intended bride will still not have freedom since the husband is now the authority instead of the father. So control of the daughter which was the duty of the father is now the responsibility of the husband.

Women are perpetual minors in the Christian Patriarchy movement.

 

[Robyn_p]

The Duggars are part of the Christian Patriarchy movement - I believe daughters are generally expected to remain under their father’s care until they marry. Financial independence on the part of a woman would be treated as unbiblical; she is viewed as answerable to her father until she marries.

I would be careful with this sort of thing. Legalism, over-control, and scrupulosity are as poisonous to the faith as permissiveness.

This is a good point. Both have a severely distorted view of sexuality and the human person in general. For me, this kind of legalism about dating almost pushed me away from the Church. It made me feel like my body was some kind of evil tainted thing that I couldn’t control.

Thankfully I learned the Church’s actual teaching, which is so much more freeing. But if I hadn’t, I’m not sure what kind of person I would be today. I have a feeling I would have snapped and left Christianity entirely. :sad_yes:

 

[Sarcelle]

Yes, this is very true. I, too, am familiar with this brand of Protestantism from my “pre-Catholic” life, and I would recommend staying away from it. I always cringe a little when I hear Catholics expressing great admiration for the Duggars. Although there are some things to admire about them, such as their financial savvy in being able to raise a large family without debt, there is much more to the Quiverfull/Patriarchy movement (which the Duggars are a part of) than you see on the happy-clappy surface.

There are groups of traditionalist Catholics who advocate the same thing, so it is not a purely Protestant phenomena.