8 Simple Rules for dating a Duggar Daughter

[masondoggy]

As a Catholic I agree with you. As a TV watcher I just find it one of the best and nicest shows that align the closest with our faith and views.

Hey, TLC! Take note, there are a ton of people who just want to see a Catholic version of the Duggars. I nominate my family. You are welcome to call me anytime. I am a stay at home homeschooling dad of 4 kids with one one the way and we are counterculture from our faith, to our family dynamics!

Yes, as a TV watcher, I do still enjoy the show and it’s one show that my kids love to watch and I don’t have to worry about them seeing any smut. I have no reservations at all allowing them to watch.

All in all, they HAVE been a good influence for kids to watch. And there’s probably more that they do that I agree with than disagree with.

But I would never pressure my daughters into following their dating rules, I wouldn’t even suggest it. I think they’re unhealthy and unnecessary. It doesn’t matter anyway because both of them roll their eyes at them. I don’t blame them.

We don’t demand blind obedience out of them, but we do talk to them a lot about relationships. We try to point out things that they should look for in a potential mate and how to recognize the red flags that should send them running in the opposite direction. We have those talks A LOT. And even though my oldest daughter is pretty rebellious right now, I do think when she’s an adult that she will value our (name removed by moderator)ut when she’s pursuing a serious relationship with somebody.

But if she makes a choice that we don’t like, we will state our case and then back off.

 

[jmcrae]

I wish that all our kids got a post secondary education and lived on their own, supported themselves, travelled a bit, before getting married. It’s a great idea.

I agree. This needs to be encouraged!

However, why do our Catholic young women, when they go out on their own, move in with a boyfriend?

There’s definitely a gap between what we want for our girls, and what they settle for.

Perhaps they feel like they don’t have enough money or enough earning power to get a place of their own, and then on top of that, maybe they feel they have to have a boyfriend to keep the “creeps” at bay, and then once they have a boyfriend and the “creeps” are gone, they feel like they have to do whatever he wants them to do, to keep him from leaving.

If so, then the solutions will involve helping our girls and young women learn to deal with “creeps” without having to get a man involved, as well as ensuring that they have all the job skills and earning power that they need at that time of life, so that they can not only be independent, but also they can feel independent.

 

[Walking_Home]

Pope Benedict XVI had this to say about those “cultures” – where women are subordinate.

MESSAGE OF HIS HOLINESS
POPE BENEDICT XVI
FOR THE CELEBRATION OF THE
WORLD DAY OF PEACE

1 JANUARY 2007

1. Similarly, inadequate consideration for the condition of women helps to create instability in the fabric of society. I think of the exploitation of women who are treated as objects, and of the many ways that a lack of respect is shown for their dignity;** I also think —in a different context—of the mindset persisting in some cultures, where women are still firmly subordinated to the arbitrary decisions of men, with grave consequences for their personal dignity and for the exercise of their fundamental freedoms. There can be no illusion of a secure peace until these forms of discrimination are also overcome, since they injure the personal dignity impressed by the Creator upon every human being.**

 

[WonderAndAwe]

What’s a “Duggar?”

 

[masondoggy]

Pope Benedict XVI had this to say about those “cultures” – where women are subordinate.

He stated it so well.

Women deserve better.

 

[masondoggy]

What’s a “Duggar?”

???

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes, as a TV watcher, I do still enjoy the show and it’s one show that my kids love to watch and I don’t have to worry about them seeing any smut. I have no reservations at all allowing them to watch.

All in all, they HAVE been a good influence for kids to watch. And there’s probably more that they do that I agree with than disagree with.

But I would never pressure my daughters into following their dating rules, I wouldn’t even suggest it. I think they’re unhealthy and unnecessary. It doesn’t matter anyway because both of them roll their eyes at them. I don’t blame them.

We don’t demand blind obedience out of them, but we do talk to them a lot about relationships. We try to point out things that they should look for in a potential mate and how to recognize the red flags that should send them running in the opposite direction. We have those talks A LOT. And even though my oldest daughter is pretty rebellious right now, I do think when she’s an adult that she will value our (name removed by moderator)ut when she’s pursuing a serious relationship with somebody.

But if she makes a choice that we don’t like, we will state our case and then back off.

Great post.

 

[DarkLight]

Yes.

There are too many barriers preventing the girls from having a good choice of mates.

Plus, the reality show format is going to distort relationships. What, for example, if one of the girls discovers that she shouldn’t marry the guy who is courting her? When you’re living this out in front of millions of people, there’s no graceful off-ramp out of a bad relationship. There’s too much pressure in this situation to pull off a successful and photogenic match on a schedule so as to keep up ratings and the magazine covers coming.

Even without that, in a lot of these cases women say there was too much pressure on them to marry. Between their father approving the match, the teachings on not giving away your heart, and

Off base? Perhaps. But you of course would stop short of thowing out the abusive controlling cult label right?

BTW would you allow passionate kissing for a 16 year old non engaged person?

The physical rules are I think not so bad, though the whole side-hug thing would drive me nuts coming from an area where everyone hugs. But yes, I do think that level of monitoring of an adult child is cultic.

If you do a little research, these girls do not go anywhere on their own. No one uses a computer with any privacy. These girls don’t get jobs or go to college. The program they are using will not provide them with a degree that would be taken seriously in the world - and for that matter, given that they wouldn’t even let an adult child volunteer without a chaperone, what makes you think one would be allowed to work?

These are not Catholic values. These are values some of us have lived with and they are deeply, fundamentally inimical to the Catholic faith. They look pretty in the way legalism always does. And they fundamentally prevent the formation not just of mature relationships but of mature faith. They create what I’ve heard termed “hothouse faith”, a faith that exists by carefully secluding itself from the world and from so much as learning about others. It’s a faith that builds itself on fear and does not stand for any exposure to the world.

It creates the faith of the pharisee who scorns the tax collector, not the saint who speaks to the sinner.

 

[severus68]

This thread is about the Duggars. Nor Gothard. I suppose that you could start a thread about Gothard if you wish.

Though I feel we must be careful when throwing stones in this area.

Here is a quote from a father.

Not so different from what a duggar might say on TV,

Who was this father you ask? What brand of cult does he belong to?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=901822

I just find it odd how absolutely condemning people are of this family and of some of the values when it is not that different from our own. It seems to me in a time of family abuses of divorce, homosexual marriage, blended families and baby mommas that there is so much attention and criticism of the Duggars. Is there a family on TV that does it better? Maybe.

You do know that they and those like them, spend time. energy and money to convert Catholics too to their brand of religion?

 

[severus68]

:

Pope Benedict XVI had this to say about those “cultures” – where women are subordinate.

 

[severus68]

Even without that, in a lot of these cases women say there was too much pressure on them to marry. Between their father approving the match, the teachings on not giving away your heart, and

The physical rules are I think not so bad, though the whole side-hug thing would drive me nuts coming from an area where everyone hugs. But yes, I do think that level of monitoring of an adult child is cultic.

If you do a little research, these girls do not go anywhere on their own. No one uses a computer with any privacy. These girls don’t get jobs or go to college. The program they are using will not provide them with a degree that would be taken seriously in the world - and for that matter, given that they wouldn’t even let an adult child volunteer without a chaperone, what makes you think one would be allowed to work?

These are not Catholic values. These are values some of us have lived with and they are deeply, fundamentally inimical to the Catholic faith. They look pretty in the way legalism always does. And they fundamentally prevent the formation not just of mature relationships but of mature faith. They create what I’ve heard termed “hothouse faith”, a faith that exists by carefully secluding itself from the world and from so much as learning about others. It’s a faith that builds itself on fear and does not stand for any exposure to the world.

It creates the faith of the pharisee who scorns the tax collector, not the saint who speaks to the sinner.

Well said.

 

[petitfleur]

Here’s a quote from three years ago:

“Several of the kids have started with CollegePlus! an online program that allows students to earn college credit, and potentially an entire degree, in a fraction of the time, at a fraction of the cost. “We’ve had several friends that have gotten a four-year degree in about eighteen months from College Plus!” Jim Bob announced during our interview.”

duggarfamilyblog.com/2011/02/duggars-on-college.html

Ummm–that is not very reassuring. Real, honest to goodness four-year-degrees take four years to get through, give or take a year, unless you are amazingly brilliant.

The kids get marginal educations and study for iffy credentials (like the online degrees and the CPM), they are qualified for at best lower-middle class jobs, they are encouraged to marry young, and they are encouraged to have large families. Taken all together, it’s a recipe for failure, and it’s setting them up for a life of dependence, either on public assistance or the Duggar family dole.

I personally just can’t get over the idea of having a daughter marry a 19-year-old suitor. Gah! If you look at the stats on men’s age at first marriage in the US, the medians from 1890 to 2010 never dip below 22 years of age. The lowest median age (1950 and 1960) is 22.8 years of age for men. A 19 year old guy is almost always pretty callow.

infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html

I don’t think one needs a college education to be successful at life, but it’s hard to imagine what the quality would be of a person’s entire degree was online. I am back at school now and cannot imagine taking my philosophy class online. I think the classroom expierence is important. Not for all classes but I would want my kids to expierence it. The same way I want my kids to expierence a job outside the home where they interact and have a boss, and customers of all types. I want them to have a bank account and pay a bill or two, and know how to stay in budget. 18 months seem like they are missing so much. I don’t think any of them have completed a program.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t think one needs a college education to be successful at life, but it’s hard to imagine what the quality would be of a person’s entire degree was online. I am back at school now and cannot imagine taking my philosophy class online. I think the classroom expierence is important. Not for all classes but I would want my kids to expierence it. The same way I want my kids to expierence a job outside the home where they interact and have a boss, and customers of all types. I want them to have a bank account and pay a bill or two, and know how to stay in budget. 18 months seem like they are missing so much. I don’t think any of them have completed a program.

Yes.

There’s a lot of talk about online courses as being the cure to everything, but the truth is that when you’re just starting a subject or weak in a subject, online courses are usually not the way to go–weak students need a lot of hand-holding. A lot of people start online courses and then fizzle out because it doesn’t have the structure and urgency of an in-person class. I believe that online classes can work for strong, highly-motivated students, but not for a lot of other people.

articles.latimes.com/2013/jul/06/local/la-me-online-remedial-20130706

 

[Xantippe]

We don’t demand blind obedience out of them, but we do talk to them a lot about relationships. We try to point out things that they should look for in a potential mate and how to recognize the red flags that should send them running in the opposite direction. We have those talks A LOT. And even though my oldest daughter is pretty rebellious right now, I do think when she’s an adult that she will value our (name removed by moderator)ut when she’s pursuing a serious relationship with somebody.

But if she makes a choice that we don’t like, we will state our case and then back off.

That’s really good.

From personal experience and from CAF discussions and the secular advice columns I follow, I think we parents need to be way more explicit about dating, relationships and marriage and how to get safely from point A to point B.

Here’s pretty close to the sum total of the advice on marriage I got from my parents:

–don’t get married out of high school (good)
–go to college (good)
–don’t marry a man with a temper (good)

But that was about it, and there was absolutely no guidance about how to get one of those husband thingies. As far as I could tell as a teenager, one was supposed to be issued to you upon college graduation. (That did not pan out.)

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You do know that they and those like them, spend time. energy and money to convert Catholics too to their brand of religion?

I never figured this would be an issue for you. Interesting. Good to know you support our faith so much that you object to other Christians efforts to evangelize. I guess the answer to this is to evangelize the duggars. I would note that politically they are a huge asset to our pro life cause. From josh to the constant posts on social media to speeches. Would that more Catholics lived the faith as loud as the duggars!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I will say this. On Instagram Jessa and Ben and josh have been posting pretty interesting kissing pictures the let few days…

 

[Xantippe]

Off base? Perhaps. But you of course would stop short of thowing out the abusive controlling cult label right?

**There are abusive controlling cult-like families that operate very similarly to the Duggars. I expect it’s hard to tell the difference unless you’ve been inside.

homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2014/10/07/the-breakthrough-moment-cynthia-jeubs-story-part-two/**

homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2014/10/08/why-does-this-have-to-be-public-cynthia-jeubs-story-part-three/

I don’t know if Cynthia Jeubs is a reliable witness, but there are quite a number of other people with similar stories.

BTW would you allow passionate kissing for a 16 year old non engaged person?

I wouldn’t be thrilled about it.

It’s a little hard to imagine for my kids, though, because I didn’t date until very late in college and my husband didn’t date until graduate school.

I believe in pacing for physical affection, and I think that if the finish line is going to be somewhere in the early/mid 20s at best, passionate kissing at 16 is probably too early. But I don’t think that this needs to be policed the way the Duggars and others would do it–it’s a possible near occasion of sin for some people, not necessarily intrinsically a sin in and of itself, which I think is an important distinction.

Personally, I think that if the scale of romantic physical contact runs from 1 to 10, 1 being handholding and 10 being intercourse, passionate kissing is maybe a 3, a 4 at the most. There’s a lot of other stuff in between kissing and intercourse, and I’m bemused by the idea that it’s a single step from passionate kissing to intercourse and that the one leads inevitably to the other. But in my personal opinion, passionate kissing probably is the last stop before you get to stuff that is better left for marriage.

 

[DarkLight]

There are abusive controlling cult-like families that operate very similarly to the Duggars. I expect it’s hard to tell the difference unless you’ve been inside.

homeschoolersanonymous.wordpr…tory-part-two/

homeschoolersanonymous.wordpr…ry-part-three/

I don’t know if Cynthia Jeubs is a reliable witness, but there are quite a number of other people with similar stories.

I think you’ll find there are some of us here who could tell horror stories. From my own life…there was never physical abuse. I mean, yes, I got spanked plenty, but that wasn’t abusive. What hurt was the emotional and spiritual climate.

It was being told when you talked about not wanting to marry that it was a sign of your rebellious heart.

It was suffering from depression and being told to put a smile on your face and stop sulking but never asking if anything was wrong or how you felt.

It was hearing that if you weren’t cheerful people would go to hell because they’d think badly of God and be forever turned away from Christianity.

It was being told over and over again how bad and sinful and generally worthless you were.

It was being spanked for crying and being told that you only cry because you’re manipulative and rebellious.

It was being told the minute you showed any anger or frustration, no matter how measured, that you were out of control.

It’s a parent discovering self-harm and screaming about how you’re dishonoring God and don’t you dare do that again, and never following up.

It was trying to approach problems and only being punished for being rude, but being denied when you asked how you should ask - or being punished after asking the way you were told to.

Those are what cause damage as surely as anything.

 

[Xantippe]

I think you’ll find there are some of us here who could tell horror stories. From my own life…there was never physical abuse. I mean, yes, I got spanked plenty, but that wasn’t abusive. What hurt was the emotional and spiritual climate.

It was being told when you talked about not wanting to marry that it was a sign of your rebellious heart.

It was suffering from depression and being told to put a smile on your face and stop sulking but never asking if anything was wrong or how you felt.

It was hearing that if you weren’t cheerful people would go to hell because they’d think badly of God and be forever turned away from Christianity.

It was being told over and over again how bad and sinful and generally worthless you were.

It was being spanked for crying and being told that you only cry because you’re manipulative and rebellious.

It was being told the minute you showed any anger or frustration, no matter how measured, that you were out of control.

It’s a parent discovering self-harm and screaming about how you’re dishonoring God and don’t you dare do that again, and never following up.

It was trying to approach problems and only being punished for being rude, but being denied when you asked how you should ask - or being punished after asking the way you were told to.

Those are what cause damage as surely as anything.

I’m sorry that happened to you.

 

[DarkLight]

I’ll probably start my own thread, but I mention it here because a lot of people don’t see behind the scenes or what can happen.

Being expected to put on a happy face at all times creates families that both look very, very good and are extremely emotionally damaging. And this is something that many of the parenting books that the Duggars endorse recommend. It’s a mentality where thought-crime runs rampant, and expressing an unapproved desire or wish is forbidden. But again, it does lead to putting on a happy, Christian front - even more so because showing dissatisfaction in front of non-Christians it considered tantamount to blasphemy. (I’m not kidding on that one - dissatisfaction or unhappiness is a sign that you’re unhappy with “God’s will”, and showing that in front of unbelievers might make them think that Christianity isn’t any better than their lives.)