8th Sacrament

[annie4]

The priest at my parish has been talking about the “8th Sacrament”?! It is in his mind to act in the Christian way towards another. How can he do this? Is this heresy?

He has been approached before on other serious matters and he ignores our concerns with what he is allowing…first communion before first reconciliation…pushing centering prayer…allowing lay person to give homily.

Any advice???

 

[Della]

Seems as though Father has his own agenda, his own interpretation of Catholic teaching. If it becomes egregious, get solid evidence of his odd teachings and send them to the bishop for review. And pray for him, of course.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, he may think that he is correct; he may even have been taught that this is correct. But of course, it isn’t.

If you’ve tried talking with him to find out where he can ‘document’ this teaching (and it is possible to ask in a non-threatening manner, but he has also probably been taught that anybody who ‘asks’ is either hopelessly pre-Vatican or out to ‘get them’), you’ll have some idea from his response what to do. (Either he won’t tell you, and the next step is to approach the bishop; or he will tell you, you can ‘explore’ the documents and again approach the bishop asking if these documents express authentic church teaching). If the BISHOP thinks it’s all peachy keen, then you have a BIG problem. . .and possibly a big MOVE to consider. Likely the bishop will not think it is ‘OK’ BUT. . .he will probably not actually do much of anything about it, especially if you’re a small parish, nobody else is doing much ‘complaining’, and the $$ hasn’t dropped a lot.

So then you’re stuck in the situation (especially if you have children) of trying to teach them authentically while the ‘authority’ is teaching them something different. Not good, believe me. You might be able to get some people behind you, but I hate to say it, in this world, people HATE obedience and LOVE change, and probably the way Father has been taught to share the ‘message’ is to subtly downplay AUTHORITY and to emphasize the ‘oneness’, the “ecumenism”, the ‘people’. . .and he’ll probably have lots of good words for the ‘popular’ things, and lots of ‘bad’ to say about authority (look how ‘they’ handled the priest crisis, look how ‘they’ are harping into people’s bedrooms and ‘denying rights’).

It’s a sin and a scandal that the Church is definitely under attack from within. And like most of the devil’s weapons, the people as well as the material used is presented in a very agreeable way, ‘angels of light’. When faced with a smiling priest who is full of fun and companionship, talks about “God’s love”, and pretty much gives you the green light to “do as you will”–or with a serious priest who makes a clear distinction between “living for God” and “living in the world”, talks about God’s justice being the “real love”, and appears to be saying that we ‘can’t’ do as we want. . .the majority of people today do, and have for several decades, overwhelmingly support “Father Jolly”.

I take heart that it seems that many younger people, as well as those of us older folk who have overcome the burden of bad catechesis and personal faults/failing and corrected ourself through proper education and late–but hopefully not too late–obedience, are choosing “Father Serious”.

God bless.

 

[EggsWithFur]

Sounds like your priest is having some issues with the authority of the Catholic Church. Is your parish rather “new agey” where the teachings of the Church are continually bent or ignored?

A lot of the current parish priests are from the rebellious era of the late 1960s & 1970s where it was their mission to fight the establishment. Is your Priest involved with fringe groups or beliefs such as the “Centering Prayer” that you mention? This is a tip off that your Priest definately has an agenda. The next thing you know, they will be selling bobble heads to raise money for the Parish.

As one of the other replies stated, you need to work through the channels of the church to try to correct this matter. If that is unsuccessful, then prayer is in order.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

There is somebody who was unclear what Father said in another thread. You seem to have no doubt. Sam advice replies: Pray, then seek out the priest. If you get no satisfaction, contact the dean. If you get no satisfaction, contact the bishop. If you get no satisfaction, contact the provincial. If you get no satisfaction, contact the Vatican. Document, document, document all this stuff.

 

[Genesis315]

Council of Trent

CANON I.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by Jesus Christ, our Lord; or, that they are more, or less, than seven, to wit, Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Order, and Matrimony; or even that any one of these seven is not truly and properly a sacrament; let him be anathema.

 

[dylanschrader]

I’m sure he isn’t claiming that living the Christian life is really an eighth sacrament. That would be ridiculous.

I would even be careful about saying it as a manner of speaking, though, since it doesn’t really make sense. The seven sacraments are what make it possible for us to live the Christian life!

This may show a lack of understanding of the real, objective efficacy of the sacraments as instruments of grace.

 

[puzzleannie]

Augustine listed several “sacraments” other than the liturgical ones, moments and actions which are sacramental and in which Christ is present, so the priest’s words are not necessarily heretical, so chill out. Like “big T and little t” tradition it may be possible to speak of “Big S and little s” sacraments. Would it not be best to have an accurate statement of what the priest said, in context, before commenting further and attributing intentions and agendas which we cannot substantiate?

 

[dylanschrader]

Augustine listed several “sacraments” other than the liturgical ones, moments and actions which are sacramental and in which Christ is present, so the priest’s words are not necessarily heretical, so chill out. Like “big T and little t” tradition it may be possible to speak of “Big S and little s” sacraments. Would it not be best to have an accurate statement of what the priest said, in context, before commenting further and attributing intentions and agendas which we cannot substantiate?

It’s true. When Augustine was writing, the word “sacrament” hadn’t yet begun to be used only in the technical sense in which we use it today. Certain “sacramentals” as we now call them were sometimes called “sacraments.”

 

[La-Petite-Fleur]

Gosh, I don’t know about you, but I’m fed up with all the dissent, both among Religious and laity. I didn’t join the Catholic church to be a pagan-“Catholic” (or a moral-relativist-“catholic”), I joined to be a Roman Catholic… These kinds of things are not fair to converts and all Catholics, and especially not to Jesus Christ, and also every martyr that died defending the Church and her teachings. Good grief. I’m sorry your priest is among the dissenters, or “progressives” as they so lovingly call themselves. Very sad. I recommend praying for him, first of all. Then you’ll have to go through the proper channels of formal complaint. Perhaps someone can help give you more information about that. I think it has something to do with contacting your bishop or archbishop. But these days, so much is allowed and even condoned, so good luck and God be with you as you seek to defend and protect the church.

 

[otjm]

I’m sure he isn’t claiming that living the Christian life is really an eighth sacrament. That would be ridiculous.

That would epend on wether the term Sacrament was being restricted to its primary meaning, of the 7 instituted by Christ, or in a less restrictive meaning in that we bring Christ to others, by our Christian witness we make Him present; where two or three are gathered in My name, I am there in the midst, and related meanings.

This may show a lack of understanding of the real, objective efficacy of the sacraments as instruments of grace.

Probably not. I have heard it from priests I consdier to be orthodox; they have made it clear that they are not speaking of strict Scarmental Theology but by analogy.

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Two thoughts:

1. Within the past several decades, the Church has increasingly recognized the sacrament of annointing of the sick is not only for the moribund but also those with any serious illness. I have received annointing of the sick once when ill, but not because I was moribund. The priest told me there were different prayers for the two different cases. Since I wasn’t near death, I didn’t receive communion Viaticum. Perhaps Father was separating the sacrament of annointing of the sick into two subsections, calling each a sacrament.
2. Fr. Shillebeeckx wrote a very popular book called Jesus: The Sacrament of the Encounter with God. Perhaps Father thought of this work and decided to make Jesus the eighth sacrament that binds all the seven together.

 

[Sir_Knight]

The priest at my parish has been talking about the “8th Sacrament”?! It is in his mind to act in the Christian way towards another. How can he do this? Is this heresy?

He has been approached before on other serious matters and he ignores our concerns with what he is allowing…first communion before first reconciliation…pushing centering prayer…allowing lay person to give homily.

Any advice???

Write a letter to your bishop saying that you are confused by your parish priest’s teachings and ask for clarification. Either you WILL receive the clarification or your priest will be asked for clarification FROM the bishop.

 

[John_Higgins]

And to think I ALWAYS thought the 8th Sacrament was Bingo!!!

John

 

[PapaSquash]

Well the Pope just released “Sacramentum Cariatis” (The Sacrament of Charity) It obviously doesn’t try to formally institute an additional sacrament however.

He may be using hyperbole to sate that performing loving acts brings us closer to God and to emphasize that living the faith outside the liturgy is important. I’d hope he would make that clear to avoid confusing people.

Lay homilists and administering Communion without first requiring Reconciliation are more clearly irregular, it would seem.

 

[jimmy]

The priest at my parish has been talking about the “8th Sacrament”?! It is in his mind to act in the Christian way towards another. How can he do this? Is this heresy?

He has been approached before on other serious matters and he ignores our concerns with what he is allowing…first communion before first reconciliation…pushing centering prayer…allowing lay person to give homily.

Any advice???

He really is not wrong. If you read modern apologetics you will see the idea that sacramentality proceeds beyond seven sacraments. A sacrament is essentially an encounter with God. Vatican II called Christ and the Church sacrament. All modern theologians would agree that the liturgy of the word is sacramental. There are many theologians who say that each human is a sacrament and all his acts have sacramental character. Read Michael Schaus’ book on the Sacraments. He mentions this a few times. Read Matthai Kadavil’s book, ‘The World as Sacrament’. Read Alexander Schmemann’s, ‘For The Life of The World’. He believed the world is sacrament with a liturgical locus theologicae. Your pastor has probably been reading some liberation theologians or something that speaks of their theology though like Leonardo Boff who believed that the world was sacramental with an ethical locus theologicae.

The fact is that the ancient Christians would agree with the priest and actually would go further and say there are many sacraments. St. Ephrem was very clear on his theology that the world is sacrament. The syrian Christians followed this view.

If you condemn this guy for saying there are more than seven sacraments then you condemn all the Church fathers and every Christian before the 12th century because none of them restricted it to seven.

 

[Genesis315]

Well the Pope just released “Sacramentum Cariatis” (The Sacrament of Charity) It obviously doesn’t try to formally institute an additional sacrament however.

The Sacrament of Love is the Eucharist. He didn’t mean the loving is itself a sacrament.

 

[jimmy]

This may show a lack of understanding of the real, objective efficacy of the sacraments as instruments of grace.

No it doesn’t. As I said, St. Ephrem and all of syrian Christianity following him believed that all of Creation is sacrament. The sacrament is inherently the symbol of God since it was created by God. A symbol according to the understanding of the fathers isn’t simply a representation of God, but it actually contains God. Everything in creation contains the power of God. If you read the fathers you will see that they refer to the Eucharist and baptism and the chrism of confirmation and etc. as symbols. This doesn’t mean they werejust representations; this means that they may appear to be bread and wine but they are actually God. In a similar way the fathers believed that the world was sacrament and by your encounter with creation you encounter God. According to Schmemann the sacrifice of Christ restored the original sacramentality of the world.

 

[PapaSquash]

The Sacrament of Love is the Eucharist. He didn’t mean the loving is itself a sacrament.

I realize this; I was hoping to show that words can be misunderstood, and that I would try to listen with charity and to “seek first to understand rather than to be understood” relative to the Priest’s teaching.

His actions regarding Liturgy are likley to be easier to pin down as truth or error.

 

[Teelynn]

That would epend on wether the term Sacrament was being restricted to its primary meaning, of the 7 instituted by Christ, or in a less restrictive meaning in that we bring Christ to others, by our Christian witness we make Him present; where two or three are gathered in My name, I am there in the midst, and related meanings.

Probably not. I have heard it from priests I consdier to be orthodox; they have made it clear that they are not speaking of strict Scarmental Theology but by analogy.

My thoughts exactly. I would not be convinced that this priest is trying to proclaim an actual 8th Sacrament until I heard his homilies on such subject and could put it into perspective. This might be his way of emphasizing how important it is to reach out to one another in Christian love. (sometimes things can be taken quite literally, when they are not intended as such)

As for the other abuses, however, I think you probably need to call a spade a spade. Take some steps, and as suggested in previous posts in the order that logic dictates. Keep him always in your prayers. In light of the agressive manor in which the Church of Christ is being attacked from within, constant prayer is needed from all of us. We need to STORM HEAVEN with this very urgent need people!!