9/11: An Odd Confluence of Ideas

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For me, it was odd (and perhaps I see God’s hand) in the theme of the readings for the last Sunday Mass, and the fact that Sunday was the 10th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

I had the priviledge of reading both the first and second reading, and I also gave the commentary which mentioned Peter’s question and Jesus’s reply in the Gospel. I read these words, but I had also just seen footage of the planes hitting the World Trade Center buildings, the ultimate collapse of both buildings, and a lot of scenes of the dead, dying and (ultimately) the walking dead, those who lived through it but don’t understand. I’ve seen stories of heroes that got others out of WTC 1 or WTC 2, only to be haunted by their memories to the point of turning to alcohol, destroyed marriages, unable to work, or do anything.

And so, I ask, how do we forgive? Ten years later, the USA as a nation hasn’t forgiven, we’ve invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, and, as an American I can tell you I still feel the hairs stand up on the back of my neck every time I see footage of 9/11. I did feel vindication when I heard that Osama bin Laden was dead (but, sadness that Hell has one more occupant). But, I know that I am out of God’s will in this, as Jesus’s words made clear to me on Sunday.

Can I ask how other Catholics feel about this and your thoughts? Because, I’m really struggling… Lord, how do I forgive 70 times 7? I can’t forgive this one time!
 
To me, forgiveness is leaving the other person up to God and His judgement. I figure, I am a child of God; therefore, the other person, by doing something bad to me, has done something bad to God.

I sometimes have to forgive someone what seems like 70x70 times for the same thing! But I just try to turn the other person over to God as many times as needed. It doesn’t mean my previous forgivings were invalid, more like I took it back.

OTOH, the fact that I forgive does not mean that I cannot defend myself. If someone steals from my business, the fact that I forgave him does not mean that I have to hire him to do my bookkeeping, right?

And the fact that I forgive someone for trying to kill me does not mean that I give up my right to self-eefense, it just means that I do not exercise my self-defense in a vindictive way. I do not kill him when he comes after me again to punish him, but I might have to kill him as the only way to stop him from killing me.

In the case of the government, there is an even more important factor, which is that the government has the obligation to defend the nation.
 
This is a difficult issue in part due to the hyper nationalism that surrounds the issue. This is also difficult due to the allegations that this is a corporate crime and if so then corporate forgiveness is called for.

The immediate result of the attack was the US government declaring this the result of an international terror organization. This gave justification to making war on any country in the world that contained such alleged terrorists. The problem for me is in believing the government at all. Governments have a terrible track record of lying. They have a terrible track record of lying to get into wars which profit a few interests at the expense of human lives. All the thinking on this issue is predicated on the assertions of the US government. I do not feel this is a sufficiently reliable source.

It is undeniable that the US used this attack as justification for attacking Iraq. The result was at least 100,000 Iraqi deaths and almost 5,000 coalition deaths. Therefore the deaths resulting from this war that was primarily justified based on the 9/11 deaths far exceeded the original deaths. As a Christian I’m supposed to care about every living soul, not just those who are under the same government as me. As a human limited by my nature I do find it hard to truly care about everyone. But I must try.

To me the fact that the US started a war that killed far more people than died on September 11th is most bothersome. I find it a case where the log is in our eye. We want to remember the dead from ten years ago. But we ignore numerically greater deaths we caused since then. If we are going to remember our dead then can not the family of those killed by us remember their loved ones? If we are allowed retribution for our dead are not they allowed retribution? How can we claim to want to put an end to violence when we are never actually willing to when given the chance?

The attack’s on 9/11 killed no one close to me. I have no personal connection to the event. The only connection I have is that it occurred to people who live under the same government as I do. I should care about it as much as I care about any deaths in the world. I should not have particular concern for this event while ignoring others across the planet.

So what role do I have in forgiveness in the first place? Do I even think about forgiving those terrorists who kill Russian citizens? No, I dont. So why do I need to think about forgiving those who perpetrated 9/11? Is this even my place? No one really talks about this at all but I think this is something we as Christians must consider.

I think we also need to consider when do we forgive. Do we automatically forgive any wrong? Does forgiveness require repentance? If it requires repentance then the men who committed the acts being dead they can not repent in any way known to me. Can guilt and forgiveness be corporate matters? It seems in modern Christian thought we tend to want to occasionally and inconsistently say guilt is not corporate. If so then how can forgiveness be corporate?

If repentance is required and guilt is corporate how would I ever know that the party in need of forgiveness had repented? I dont have any personal contact with any of the alleged corporate bodies responsible for the attacks. So I could never be aware of them seeking forgiveness. Therefore it seems to me my choice is either to forgive without knowledge of repentance, to never forgive or to forgive if some authority claiming to have knowledge of the corporate body declares them to have sought forgiveness. For me, since the authority would be the US government, which has not been shown to be reliable, I find the third option to be untenable. I believe never forgiving to be not in keeping with Christs teaching. Therefore I must forgive whoever was responsible.

We are told we must forgive in order to be forgiven. But for me the greatest difficulty is not forgiving what others have done. I’m more worried about being forgiven for what has been done in my name. The 9/11 attacks were terrible and tragic. But since then we have caused far more people to be killed in just one war based on lies and the claim that we have the right to preemptively attack people if we, in our sole discretion, determine they simply *might *be a threat to us someday. The horrors of that moral principle should be clear as it would allow everyone to attack anyone else since we all *might *be a threat someday.

I can readily forgive those who perpetrated 9/11 because I know that if corporate guilt exists I am far more guilty than they. So I pray for God’s mercy and forgiveness of me and my people and the forgiveness of those who have been wronged by those who claim to represent me so that the cycle of violence might end.
 
ExNihilo,
I just wanted to point out that one can forgive without repentance on the part of the other. That is what Christ did on the cross when He said, Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.

And I will also point out that patriotism is even in natural law: we should care about out nation, because it is the society which has given us so much and in which we chose to live. Check out Plato’s Apologia for the best explanation of this. (It’s an easy read, unlike other philosophy books!)
exnihilo said:
This is a difficult issue in part due to the hyper nationalism that surrounds the issue. This is also difficult due to the allegations that this is a corporate crime and if so then corporate forgiveness is called for.

The immediate result of the attack was the US government declaring this the result of an international terror organization. This gave justification to making war on any country in the world that contained such alleged terrorists. The problem for me is in believing the government at all. Governments have a terrible track record of lying. They have a terrible track record of lying to get into wars which profit a few interests at the expense of human lives. All the thinking on this issue is predicated on the assertions of the US government. I do not feel this is a sufficiently reliable source.

It is undeniable that the US used this attack as justification for attacking Iraq. The result was at least 100,000 Iraqi deaths and almost 5,000 coalition deaths. Therefore the deaths resulting from this war that was primarily justified based on the 9/11 deaths far exceeded the original deaths. As a Christian I’m supposed to care about every living soul, not just those who are under the same government as me. As a human limited by my nature I do find it hard to truly care about everyone. But I must try.

To me the fact that the US started a war that killed far more people than died on September 11th is most bothersome. I find it a case where the log is in our eye. We want to remember the dead from ten years ago. But we ignore numerically greater deaths we caused since then. If we are going to remember our dead then can not the family of those killed by us remember their loved ones? If we are allowed retribution for our dead are not they allowed retribution? How can we claim to want to put an end to violence when we are never actually willing to when given the chance?

The attack’s on 9/11 killed no one close to me. I have no personal connection to the event. The only connection I have is that it occurred to people who live under the same government as I do. I should care about it as much as I care about any deaths in the world. I should not have particular concern for this event while ignoring others across the planet.

So what role do I have in forgiveness in the first place? Do I even think about forgiving those terrorists who kill Russian citizens? No, I dont. So why do I need to think about forgiving those who perpetrated 9/11? Is this even my place? No one really talks about this at all but I think this is something we as Christians must consider.

I think we also need to consider when do we forgive. Do we automatically forgive any wrong? Does forgiveness require repentance? If it requires repentance then the men who committed the acts being dead they can not repent in any way known to me. Can guilt and forgiveness be corporate matters? It seems in modern Christian thought we tend to want to occasionally and inconsistently say guilt is not corporate. If so then how can forgiveness be corporate?

If repentance is required and guilt is corporate how would I ever know that the party in need of forgiveness had repented? I dont have any personal contact with any of the alleged corporate bodies responsible for the attacks. So I could never be aware of them seeking forgiveness. Therefore it seems to me my choice is either to forgive without knowledge of repentance, to never forgive or to forgive if some authority claiming to have knowledge of the corporate body declares them to have sought forgiveness. For me, since the authority would be the US government, which has not been shown to be reliable, I find the third option to be untenable. I believe never forgiving to be not in keeping with Christs teaching. Therefore I must forgive whoever was responsible.

We are told we must forgive in order to be forgiven. But for me the greatest difficulty is not forgiving what others have done. I’m more worried about being forgiven for what has been done in my name. The 9/11 attacks were terrible and tragic. But since then we have caused far more people to be killed in just one war based on lies and the claim that we have the right to preemptively attack people if we, in our sole discretion, determine they simply *might *be a threat to us someday. The horrors of that moral principle should be clear as it would allow everyone to attack anyone else since we all *might *be a threat someday.

I can readily forgive those who perpetrated 9/11 because I know that if corporate guilt exists I am far more guilty than they. So I pray for God’s mercy and forgiveness of me and my people and the forgiveness of those who have been wronged by those who claim to represent me so that the cycle of violence might end.
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I had a few thoughts on 9/11…

At some point, we really have to get over it and move on…that doesn’t mean a memorial every so often isn’t appropriate…

…and even though innocent lives were lost, my thoughts turn to the thousands who lose their innocent lives through abortion, murder, lack of proper food, water, medical care, etc.

This may sound cold, and maybe it is…but it’s like America and New Yorkers have cornered the market on “loss”…more so, anyway, than those in the other planes that went down…guess that’s just my perception.

Nobody grieves over the poor homeless sap that freezes to death in the middle of winter; his body sits in the morgue in Detroit or elsewhere (I only use Detroit as an example as I live near there), waiting for someone to claim him and bury him.

I dunno…maybe I’m in a pessimestic mood today, but I saw a little of a pity party on 9/11…probably media generated…instead of “Yeah, it was bad, yeah, innocents lost their lives, but even though we miss and remember them, we’re a stronger nation than we ever were”.

Politics and media…guess I’m getting sick of them.

Anyway, I don’t want to step on any toes here, especially for anyone who lost someone in those attacks…I’m not critical of any one person or group of people who’ve lose someone, rather of the media and the pols.
 
I did feel vindication when I heard that Osama bin Laden was dead (but, sadness that Hell has one more occupant). But, I know that I am out of God’s will in this, as Jesus’s words made clear to me on Sunday
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when did you get to decide that someone went to hell.
 
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