9/11 Jumpers -- was what they did a sin?

[VIR2010]

I’d be willing to met in a situation like that, survival instict would kick in to escape the fire and jumping out the window to get out of the building in a panic-ridden mind would have seemed a viable option.

Either way, we can’t know for sure so it’s not our place to judge those poor souls. May they rest in peace, and God forgive those who committed such a heinous act against civilians, and soften their hearts so that they may love Him.

I believe they were “choosing” to die in a certain fashion. It was inevitable either way, they just chose the quickest. They did not want to die at all but they knew they were going to.

 

[The_Word]

I see your religion is “God.” As that’s rather vague, I’m going to assume you’re not a Christian, or else you’d believe in the Resurrection of the Body.

As other Christians, I - and probably most posters here - believe that at the final judgment, the Lord will raise up to life the bodies of those who have died. We will not live for eternity as disembodied spirits, but rather in glorified bodies.

It’s going to be hard raising up the bodies of fetuses and those who were burned to ashes.

Consider this thought;

We were all created in the invisible image of God who is nothing but thoughts. The Word ( Jesus Christ, his saints and prophets ) was his first creation and all things were created by the Word. The Word represents the flesh of all the prophets, Jesus and us saints to experience life in them and speak for God. Everyone else was created as men, both male and female. These are the sinners of this age who weren’t chosen to be conformed to the image of Christ.

We need a physical body to experience our thoughts in God and our brain processes these thoughts to make it functional for us to live in. Without our created thoughts, our bodies wouldn’t exist because these thoughts are in God and he’s the life giver. Once our flesh dies, we remain alive in God until this earth changes into paradise, which is going to start happening very soon. When paradise is ready for us, we will be given new immortal bodies to live forever.

The Word will be the first to get new adult bodies to live in that replace the bodies of the prophets, saints and Jesus of this age. There will be a new Adam and Eve adult bodies to start the process of birthing all God’s created men into paradise who will be reborn with two bodies of the opposite sex and they will be partners forever. They will be the babymakers to help repopulate the earth.

Check out these scriptures below to show these thoughts I gave you are backed up with the Bible that you sinners need for understanding anything. All this teaching I’m giving you comes directly from God.

I Colossians 1:
15: He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; 16: for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities – all things were created through him and for him.
17: He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18: He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent.
19: For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell,

Romans 9:
28: We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.
29: For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30: And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
This writing by Paul shows the saints and prophets are created with Jesus Christ as the Word.

John 1:
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: He was in the beginning with God;
3: all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 4: In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
14: And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

Genesis 1:
26: Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”
27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God created man in his invisible image, both male and female. This means they should have two bodies of the opposite sex like Adam and Eve. During this age, we were born with one body and our DNA has both male and female in it.

Genesis 2:
1: Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2: And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done.
3: So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all his work which he had done in creation.
7: then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. God formed the flesh of man a long time after creation, when the earth was ready for man.

Genesis 3:
19: In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return." God is talking about our flesh dying during this age, not our created image in God which lives on for eternity.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

It’s going to be hard raising up the bodies of fetuses and those who were burned to ashes.

Harder than raising up the bodies of those who died long ago and, although not cremated, have completely decomposed? After all, God’s words to our first parents are true of all of us: “Remember, O man, that you are dust, and unto dust you shall return.” (Gen 3:19).

Nonetheless, do you suggest that such a thing would be impossible for God? Why? Because we can’t imagine how it will be accomplished? That’s nothing: “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” - Jesus in Matt. 19:26, and after all, which is more fantastical - the physical restoration of a body or a camel’s passing through the eye of a needle? The former is far less miraculous and contradictory - certainly the matter that makes up my body doesn’t vanish from existence after I’ve decomposed. Every atom, every molecule, will still be out there somewhere.

We were all created in the invisible image of God who is nothing but thoughts. The Word ( Jesus Christ, his saints and prophets ) was his first creation and all things were created by the Word.

Well, I’d be more precise. We really can’t call Christ a creature as that implies He - as a person - has a beginning in time. But God has no beginning, and we know Jesus is God: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” - John 1:1. And Jesus himself said, “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58), after which the crowd attempted to stone him for blasphemy.

When paradise is ready for us, we will be given new immortal bodies to live forever.

Ah, forgive me. I thought you denied this, because I misread your post. You had said we’d be freed “from our sinful flesh forever,” but in light of the above quote I see I was wrong to have assumed that that clause implies that the body is an innately sinful thing.

There will be a new Adam and Eve adult bodies to start the process of birthing all God’s created men into paradise who will be reborn with two bodies of the opposite sex and they will be partners forever. They will be the babymakers to help repopulate the earth.

None of the Scripture verses you cited establish that. Where are you getting it from?

Genesis 3:
19: In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return." God is talking about our flesh dying during this age, not our created image in God which lives on for eternity.

Yep, I see that, and it’s telling that in this discussion we both cited the same Scripture passages (John 1:1, Genesis 3:19, etc.).

I think most people on this forum already understand all this, though. The Catholic Church’s teachings - which derive from Scripture and Tradition - ensure that the fullness of the Gospel is available to believers.

 

[The_Word]

Harder than raising up the bodies of those who died long ago and, although not cremated, have completely decomposed? After all, God’s words to our first parents are true of all of us: “Remember, O man, that you are dust, and unto dust you shall return.” (Gen 3:19).

Nonetheless, do you suggest that such a thing would be impossible for God? Why? Because we can’t imagine how it will be accomplished? That’s nothing: “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” - Jesus in Matt. 19:26, and after all, which is more fantastical - the physical restoration of a body or a camel’s passing through the eye of a needle? The former is far less miraculous and contradictory - certainly the matter that makes up my body doesn’t vanish from existence after I’ve decomposed. Every atom, every molecule, will still be out there somewhere.

Well, I’d be more precise. We really can’t call Christ a creature as that implies He - as a person - has a beginning in time. But God has no beginning, and we know Jesus is God: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” - John 1:1. And Jesus himself said, “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58), after which the crowd attempted to stone him for blasphemy.

Ah, forgive me. I thought you denied this, because I misread your post. You had said we’d be freed “from our sinful flesh forever,” but in light of the above quote I see I was wrong to have assumed that that clause implies that the body is an innately sinful thing.

None of the Scripture verses you cited establish that. Where are you getting it from?

Yep, I see that, and it’s telling that in this discussion we both cited the same Scripture passages (John 1:1, Genesis 3:19, etc.).

I think most people on this forum already understand all this, though. The Catholic Church’s teachings - which derive from Scripture and Tradition - ensure that the fullness of the Gospel is available to believers.

I get all my understanding directly from God and I only use the scriptures to admonish sinners and teach them the correct interpretations of them. I don’t argue because I’m the only one on earth who has the truth in me.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I get all my understanding directly from God and I only use the scriptures to admonish sinners and teach them the correct interpretations of them. I don’t argue because I’m the only one on earth who has the truth in me.

Oh, okay…

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

Oh, okay…

Tolkien has a memorable passage in The Hobbit that speaks to this situation.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Tolkien has a memorable passage in The Hobbit that speaks to this situation.

What is it? It’s been awhile since I’ve read The Hobbit.

 

[The_Word]

Oh, okay…

Did you know that the love of God is the knowledge of God and the truth? When I preach the gospel, which means to speak for God, I am loving everyone who accepts his love. Most people won’t accept his love and run away. You don’t need to run away because you don’t understand something. That’s what questions are all about and you get more loving from God when you do that.

Some people challenge God and think they can change his mind but that’s impossible. God has been the truth forever and he isn’t going to change his mind for anyone.

 

[John7]

I’m the only one on earth who has the truth.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[centurionguard]

The thread has gotten pretty bad. It was the initial question I was talking about - and while I do find it revolting, if someone asks, what is there left to do but answer? I don’t think asking this question - as tasteless as that is - compares to campaigning against women wearing pants, for example, or claiming it’s your “right” to bring a concealed firearm to Mass, or discussing whether holding the Christian faith should be a prerequisite for American citizenship.

Topics like that make me want to vomit. This thread simply provoked me to reply that the answer is, “No, they didn’t sin in jumping” as loudly and emphatically as I could…

I see your religion is “God.” As that’s rather vague, I’m going to assume you’re not a Christian, or else you’d believe in the Resurrection of the Body.

As other Christians, I - and probably most posters here - believe that at the final judgment, the Lord will raise up to life the bodies of those who have died. We will not live for eternity as disembodied spirits, but rather in glorified bodies.

He denied repeatedly that we can be certain fear was a primary motivating factor. I don’t think absolute skepticism is appropriate when considering this question. It’s pretty clear that those victims’ last act was in no way sinful.

…

Fone Bone wrote:

He denied repeatedly that we can be certain fear was a primary motivating factor. I don’t think absolute skepticism is appropriate when considering this question. It’s pretty clear that those victims’ last act was in no way sinful

I wasn’t advocating skepticism when I agreed with he other poster about speaking about all the conjecture flaunting around this thread. And your right It is pretty clear that those 9/11 jumpers victims last act of “desperation” to remove themselves from harms way was in no way sinful. I certainly can’t see in all common logical sense how anyone in the exact traumatic situation could see it any differently. Unequivocal FEAR was the motivating factor. People jump from buildings on fire all the time. Any bias conjecture questioning the moral culpability of blaming a person in fear of fire jumping out of a building to get away from smoke and fire is in my respectful opinion redundant.

Peace
Chris

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I wasn’t advocating skepticism when I agreed with he other poster about speaking about all the conjecture flaunting around this thread.

Oh, don’t worry, I didn’t mean to imply that you were.

And your right It is pretty clear that those 9/11 jumpers victims last act of “desperation” to remove themselves from harms way was in no way sinful. I certainly can’t see in all common logical sense how anyone in the exact traumatic situation could see it any differently. Unequivocal FEAR was the motivating factor. People jump from buildings on fire all the time. Any bias conjecture questioning the moral culpability of blaming a person in fear of fire jumping out of a building to get away from smoke and fire is in my respectful opinion redundant.

Peace
Chris

Of course, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[kinja]

Jet fuel is refined kerosene. Airliners use “Jet A” kerosene and the military uses “JP 4” kerosene. Regardless, neither grade burns that hot, or it would melt the inside of a jet engine.

Jet A is the same stuff burned in conventional steel wall heaters. In an open-air office fire such as that at WTC (called a “dirty burn”) kerosene or any hydrocarbon will burn at around 500-700degrees Fahrenheit. The FEMA report on 911 said that the jet fuel burned off after a few minutes and the fires from the office furniture and carpets were about 560 degrees. The special structural steel of the WTC has over 98% of its strength at those temperatures, and the WTC was built to hold 5 times its load.

In a “controlled burn” (where oxygen and fuel are regulated in an optimal mix), jet fuel will reach a maximum temperature of 1800 degrees Fahrenheit, which is still not anywhere near the temperature required to weaken the steel girders of a building to the point that the entire building plummeted to the ground. Yet molten steel was reported below the towers, suggesting that a very powerful “fuel” was used, set to burn or explode BELOW the building, not at its top. Thermite, an HTA (high-temperature accelerant) typically used in military operations, would have been able to liquefy the steel. Thermite can reach a temperature of 4500 dF in 2 seconds, and steel begins to melt at 2750 dF.

Professor Steven Jones (Google him), a physicist at Brigham Young University, came forward in November 2004 with a published paper on the possibility of thermite having been used at the WTC on 9/11. His research continues, and he has now found not only solidified drops of molten metal in a dust sample from the WTC, but evidence of sulfuric granulation (a “eutectic reaction”) on the structural steel, which suggests that thermate, an enhanced form of thermite, was involved in the destruction of the towers.