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I read this thread with curiousity and taken aback. All I read is really evil. Why should I take your belonging because we are different in belief? Or to humiliate? Or kill someone who doesn’t believe anymore (apostate)? What teaching constitute this?

I see myself in all of you. We are one.
 
He is not going to answer you Bivar, instead will keep whining about your ‘plagiarism’ which could be a good thread here 😛
 
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Tanith:
I read this thread with curiousity and taken aback. All I read is really evil. Why should I take your belonging because we are different in belief? Or to humiliate? Or kill someone who doesn’t believe anymore (apostate)? What teaching constitute this?
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Islam.
 
I believe it’s not the case. Fanatical belief can lead to those horrible murders, but in fact, all the good teaching will lead to ‘higher realization’, or may be in your term ‘reborn’ or ‘new creation’. I don’t know what is the term in Islam. Here I need to make a confirmation to Islam Followers whether it’s true that Islam really prescribes apostates to be killed, jizyah to be taken forcefully and things like that. So it will be fairer for all of us here. And have you ever thought that you in fact can see yourself, Rodrigo, in them (Islamic Follower) as they in fact can see themselves in you?
 
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Tanith:
I believe it’s not the case. Fanatical belief can lead to those horrible murders, but in fact, all the good teaching will lead to ‘higher realization’, or may be in your term ‘reborn’ or ‘new creation’. I don’t know what is the term in Islam. Here I need to make a confirmation to Islam Followers whether it’s true that Islam really prescribes apostates to be killed, jizyah to be taken forcefully and things like that. So it will be fairer for all of us here. And have you ever thought that you in fact can see yourself, Rodrigo, in them (Islamic Follower) as they in fact can see themselves in you?
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I fight injustice does not mean I’m unjust.

I do hope you’ll have better luck getting the Muslims to answer you regarding apostates and jizyah.

God knows I’ve tried to get r.gonzales to give me an honest answer to the simple question, ‘is killing apostates right?’

I personally don’t see myself in Muslims as they see themselves in me. That doesn’t mean I can’t see their point of view. I do - and that is what frightens me about Islam.
 
If so, we shall read the answer from Gonzales. But before that, we cannot be that prejudiced. Fighting for truth is good, but don’t let the fight becomes the goal. You sound very intelligent.
 
There…there. the fighting shouldn’t be your goal. Your religion teaches you “do to others what you expect them to do on you”, and it’s binding. In Toltec, it is simpler. When you have seen other people as yourself, you don’t need to force yourself to do good to others. You do good naturally. You will be in peace with people and mother nature. By the way, I am still waiting for confirmation regarding this matter from Gonzales. He seems very knowledgable too.
 
I am here to listen ideas from other. Including Rodrigo, Gonzales, and you. And how about you?
 
the answer is obvious and has also explicitly been stated elsewhere - which is why i told him to make use of the site’s search feature.

btw, there’s a question that none of you, let alone bivar, seem to be willing to answer above, post #115.
 
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r.gonzales:
the answer is obvious and has also explicitly been stated elsewhere - which is why i told him to make use of the site’s search feature.

btw, there’s a question that none of you, let alone bivar, seem to be willing to answer above, post #115.
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Okay, I’ll concede the point that God in the Old Testament did legislate those punishments for that specific time. Period.

You claim that Islamic punishments like those in the Old Testament were also for a certain specific time.

Since I have replied to your question, would you answer these:

IF THOSE ISLAMIC PUNISHMENTS WERE FOR A SPECIFIC TIME ONLY, WHY ARE YOU LIVING IN THE 21 CENTURY BY 7TH CENTURY RULES? WHY ARE THOSE PUNISHMENTS STILL BEING ENACTED TODAY?

AND WHY CAN YOU NOT GIVE US A SIMPLE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION THAT RODRIGO HAS ASKED? YOU WERE FREE TO LEAVE CHRISTIANITY, WERE YOU NOT? FOR THE SAME TOKEN A MUSLIM WHO WANTS TO LEAVE ISLAM SHOULD HAVE THE FREEDOM TO DO THE SAME.

WHY SHOULD A PERSON BE EXECUTED FOR EXERCISING HIS RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF RELIGION?

Vickie
 
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r.gonzales:
the answer is obvious and has also explicitly been stated elsewhere - which is why i told him to make use of the site’s search feature.

btw, there’s a question that none of you, let alone bivar, seem to be willing to answer above, post #115.
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Is my question to you, ‘is killing apostates right?’ so difficult to answer without squirming and evasion? It’s a simple yes or no answer.

Why don’t you answer? What do you have to hide? I really want to know what you think. The more you evade the less people are going to think of you and Islam. They’re going to be saying to themselves, ‘what has r.gonzales got to hide? Is this something about Islam that he doesn’t want people to know?’

I tell you what: when you answer me, I will answer your question in post 115. Fair? You can’t say I’m not a fair and charitable man.

Ciao and hope to hear your answer soon,
Rodrigo
 
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r.gonzales:
booklover or anyone else… let’s put this the simplest way possible…

quoted from above:

Originally Posted by r.gonzales
simple question. did or did not your God legislate the death penalty for those punishments listed in that article?

if yes, do you believe that He was being inhumane or unjust by legislating these punishments?

no need for any long winded explanation of how these laws are abrogated and no longer apply. i’m not asking about their application, i’m asking about whether or not they were just and humane or injust and inhumane.
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Let me answer this though I know you will have a reply for it. I’m not good in intrigue and set-up but I’m one who is not afraid to lose an argument.

As I said in my earlier post those mentioned verses of the OT are irrelevant to the context of this discussion for reasons been stated.

Those laws were just because they are about the justice of God. But you need to know too that God and man entered into a covenant, an agreement, from the time of creation.

The covenant in a nutshell:-

God - creates human and gives him paradise and protection.

Human - obedient to God and if not, the consequent of sin is death.

The covenant seems fair, though the human may not have a say on whether he wanted to be created or not. But he did enjoy paradise alright.

Human broke the covenant and recieved the consequence - death.

But God is good. He came out with a plan of salvation so that human will not face death no more.

The savior is Jesus.

After Jesus there should not be death anymore, because death had been taken by Him on the cross.

Now, Christians’ query here - why is there still death penalty from God, executed out by man, in this day and this time? This makes God unjust and untrue, if it’s really from Him. But God is not unjust nor untrue, therefore your laws surely do not come from Him.
 
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Booklover:
You claim that Islamic punishments like those in the Old Testament were also for a certain specific time.
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i never made such a claim with regards to this specific issue. you’ve got me mistaken for jcaz.

so now that you concede the fact that Allah legislated those punishments, do you believe He was unjust or inhumane in doing so?

and bivar, try here. surpised you didn’t notice it since you took part in that thread.
 
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r.gonzales:
i never made such a claim with regards to this specific issue. you’ve got me mistaken for jcaz.
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Sorry! I’d like to hear your answer to that though.
so now that you concede the fact that Allah legislated those punishments, do you believe He was unjust or inhumane in doing so?
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No, God in his infinite wisdom knows what he’s doing so it’s not up to me to question his actions. But then again, since I believe that Mohammed was a false prophet I do not believe that the Allah of the Quran existed anywhere else but in Mohammed’s imagination and was not only his alter ego, but a useful tool to spread terror not only among his enemies but on his followers as well.
and bivar, try here. surpised you didn’t notice it since you took part in that thread.
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So here is your reply:
yes, i do. and it’s a ruling and punishment that the muslim state courts come to and carry out. it’s not a ruling that is come to by any individual. i don’t believe anyone who accepts the truth should be allowed to choose disbelief.

What truth? That is only the truth as you perceive it! SO THE FINAL ANSWER IS THAT ACCORDING TO ISLAM APOSTATES SHOULD BE KILLED!:eek: THEREFORE, WE CAN CONCLUDE THAT **ISLAM DENIES FREE WILL!:bigyikes: **

Vickie
 
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Booklover:
No, God in his infinite wisdom knows what he’s doing so it’s not up to me to question his actions.
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good. now we can move on from this issue.
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Booklover:
But then again, since I believe that Mohammed was a false prophet I do not believe that the Allah of the Quran existed anywhere else but in Mohammed’s imagination and was not only his alter ego, but a useful tool to spread terror not only among his enemies but on his followers as well.
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irrelevant to the quesiton i asked. we all know you believe prophet muhammad to be a false prophet. the point of the questioning was to establish that the death penalties legislated by Allah are not inhumane and injust.

i’m on my way out just now so i don’t have time to write more… we’ll continue later.
 
So are we to conclude then, that Islam is opposed to religious tolerance as a matter of principle? That exercising one’s conscience could in fact get you killed?

If that is the case, then do Muslims living in Western countries consider the existence of other religions to be a necessary evil?
Or is it an evil that must be eradicated?
 
Is it that hard just to ask r.gonzales to say yes or no “is killing apostate right?” on this thread so the discussion may go on? :rolleyes:
 
I am curious too. I really am curious if a religion prescribes ‘death penalty’ to its followers that leave it. Would you mind answering that, Gonzales?
 
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