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Cyber Knight:
Is it that hard just to ask r.gonzales to say yes or no “is killing apostate right?” on this thread so the discussion may go on? :rolleyes:
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try clicking on the link i provided a couple of posts up :rolleyes:
 
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Tanith:
I am curious too. I really am curious if a religion prescribes ‘death penalty’ to its followers that leave it. Would you mind answering that, Gonzales?
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reading the bulk of the thread that has preceded will aid you in seeing where this discussion has been and where it’s going. your answer is found in the posts that have passed.
 
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r.gonzales:
try clicking on the link i provided a couple of posts up :rolleyes:
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I want the answer in this thread directly by yourself. Just Yes or No?
 
The Truth about Islamic Crusades and Imperialism by James Arlandson
americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5024&search=bostom

The Real History of the Crusades By Thomas F. Madden
crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

answering-islam.org/Index/J/jihad.html

answering-islam.org/Index/C/crusades.html

The Legacy of Jihad in Historical Palestine (Part I) By Andrew G. Bostom
andrewbostom.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=76&Itemid=27

The Legacy of Jihad in Historical Palestine (Part II) By Andrew G. Bostom
andrewbostom.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=77&Itemid=27

The Legacy of Jihad in India By Andrew G. Bostom
andrewbostom.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=27

Sufi Jihad? By Andrew G. Bostom
andrewbostom.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=52&Itemid=27

See andrewbostom.org/ for more articles on Jihad
 
Gonzales, I really love to have an enlightment from you here. I am really surprised that some people claim Islam to prescribe killing to apostates. I see from several pages about you that you are really knowledgeable in Islam. I would be very grateful if you could answer for us. I see that Brother Cyber and some other people are confused here too.
 
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Tanith:
Gonzales, I really love to have an enlightment from you here. I am really surprised that some people claim Islam to prescribe killing to apostates. I see from several pages about you that you are really knowledgeable in Islam. I would be very grateful if you could answer for us. I see that Brother Cyber and some other people are confused here too.
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al-islam.org/short/apostacy.htm

The Punishment of the Apostate according to Islamic Law by Abul Ala Mawdudi answering-islam.org/Hahn/Mawdudi/

light-of-life.com/eng/ilaw/
 
while islam does legislate the death penalty for apostasy…
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coptic_believer:
al-islam.org
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this site is a shee’ah site. the shee’ah are a heretic sect of islam.
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coptic_believer:
Abul Ala Mawdudi
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abul-a’laa al-mawdoodee was someone affected with kharajite ideologies and many of his teachings are contrary to islam’s.
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coptic_believer:
light-of-life.com
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this site is a joke. the acronym for it’s url, LOL, is rather fitting.
 
Since you complained about the above Shia (Shee’ah) article, I will quote from Sahih Bukhari, Sunnis consider Sahih Bukhari to be the most reliable hadith collection.

Sahih Bukhari, Book 84:
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn ‘Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’"

Sahih Bukhari, Book 84:
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
Narrated Abu Burda:

Abu Musa said, “I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash’ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah’s Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O ‘Abdullah bin Qais!).’ I said, ‘By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.’ As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or ‘Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.’” The Prophet then sent Mu’adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu’adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, **"I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. ** Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, “Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, ‘I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.’”
 
So, is it so, Gonzales? I need your answer, because you are a moslem. Brother Coptic is a coptic, I pressume. and it’s not fair to answer about Islam based on him and not based on you.
 
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Tanith:
So, is it so, Gonzales? I need your answer, because you are a moslem. Brother Coptic is a coptic, I pressume. and it’s not fair to answer about Islam based on him and not based on you.
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lol. This is pretty funny. Brother Gonzales said it like 10 times on this thread and on others (including the one you just responded to)…saying clearly that the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death. That only shows that some people dont read the entire post of the person they are “debating” with.

Anyway, I found this verse from the Bible, where God says to kill anyone (by stoning) that commits blasphemy (in your interpreation that would mean that someone would have to leave Christianity and say that Jesus is not divine)…i know the old testatment doenst hold much anymore…but you do believe it DID come from God

Leviticus 24 :16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, dying let him die: all the multitude shall stone him, whether he be a native or a stranger. He that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, dying let him die
 
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raceland:
Salam Rodrigo,

Margoliouth says that Imaam Bukhari has stated that the sentence:

“Except that you respect the relation that exist between me and you”

“was a divine revelation through Wahy, but the commentators say that this sentence does not exist in the Glorious Qur’an (where is the proof?). Therefore, they consider this sentence as an explanatory note to the Qur’aanic Ayaah (verse 23) of Surah Ash-Shura.” (See Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics V. 1, Page 543)

This was Margoliouth claim that Bukhari didn’t know the exact verse. Compare it to Sahih Bukhari

Sahih Bukhari: 1 -CHAPTER: The saying of Allah (the Exalted and Almighty): -

«Except to be kind to me for my kinship with you (42:23)
[4818] Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated that he was asked (regarding): -

«Except to be kind to me for my kinship with you. (42:23)

Sa’id bin Zubair (who was present then) said: «It means here (to show what is due for) the relatives of Muhammad (The blessing and peace of Allah be upon him)». On that Ibn Abbas said: You have hurried in giving the answer! There was no branch of the tribe of Quraish but the Prophet (The blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) had relatives therein. The Prophet (The blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: «(I do not want anything from you) except to be kind to me for my Kinship with you».

What Margoliouth quoted from Bukhari and claimed it’s a verse, was nothing but an explanation from the Prophet pbuh to the verse (42:23).

Anyways, I read his book “Mohammedanism”, it’s all filled with guesses and speculations, no facts, baseless. His arguments are as weak as his references. Worst of all he’s described by the Christians as having knowledge in Islam more than some Muslem scholars, yet he doesn’t know how to read the verses of the Qur’an, doesn’t know that number of the Qur’anic verses is written after the verse not before it 🙂 .

His mistakes and lack of knowledge are all over the place in his books. But the shame is on the people who quote him like parrots.

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The same is on people who keep committing the logical fallacy of argumentum ad hominem - you for instance. When you have something decent to say I will be prepared to listen to you. If you keep on your ad hominems I will continue to bin your posts in the garbage can where it deserves.

I already explained to you what an argumentum ad hominem is and yet you still continue to commit it. Not only that, you made an ad hominem against me.

Sheesh - I don’t know about Muslim forums but I expect better standards in a kafir forum.
 
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raceland:
Again you are wrong. Please man, provide your references. I don’t want to keep answering your thoughts and imaginations. A Muslim who doesn’t pay the zakah will suffer a severe punishment in the afterlife, and here what’s gonna happen in this life:
"………
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I already explained what I meant by ‘voluntary’. I know it is considered obligatory but I was making the distinction between the zakat and the jizyah and compared to the jizyah the zakat is ‘voluntary’. I did note that some Muslim rulers punished Muslims who didn’t pay zakat.

The point is: zakat is ‘self-assessed’ while the jizyah was not.
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raceland:
If you wanna read the rest of the punishments and what he’ll suffer on the Day of Judgment be my guest: usc.edu/dept/MSA/law/fiqhussunnah/fus3_40.html

Volume 3, Page 4: Punishment in the Qur’an for the Delinquents of Zakah

Volume 3, Page 4a: Punishment in the Hadith for the Delinquents of Zakah
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Heck, we were talking about earthly concerns and you talk to me about burning in hell fire?
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raceland:
As for the protection needed by dhimmis, maybe you want to do some history readings on what the Crusaders did to the Jews and Christians living in Muslim countries. Or maybe you can go look for a Forum on the internet for Christian Assyrians and ask them what happened to them.
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I also know the things Muslims did – okay. You Muslims weren’t exactly faultless. My point which you didn’t address, except merely repeat yourself, is that the Crusades were only for 180 years out of 1,400 years of Islamic history.

Now, the Crusades didn’t start until 400 years after Muhammad – how can the dhimmis need protection against Crusaders when there weren’t any for 400 years?

The Crusades have ended since 1270 – how can the dhimmis need protection against Crusaders for the next 700 years and forever?

Until you answer these question, don’t just repeat yourself. Repetition isn’t rebuttal. If you disagree with me, just tell me why. Don’t just pretend I didn’t rebut you.
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raceland:
TEXT DELETED. The only scholar who mentions something related to this is Umar Zamakhshari, this man is not the Prophet pbuh, not a companion, and not even close to the hadith scribes, and he’s well known as Mutazalite, and as I expected he’s Iranian (Shiite) from the Mu’tazila who abandoned the true teachings of Islam.
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Heck, I brought up 3 pieces of evidence of cruelty associated with paying the Jizyah – you home in on only one. Mutazilites are also Muslims – they are just a different sect. You have to take in the whole picture of what I’m saying.

What about the Turks who used to hit the dhimmis when collecting the jizyah? What about the Khaljis who used to spit into the mouths of the dhimmis when collecting the jizyah?

You ignore these?
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raceland:
Again let’s define Jizyah: “a tax paid by non-Muslims living in a Muslim State. Since the non-Muslims are exempt from military service and taxes imposed on Muslims, they must pay this tax to compensate. It guarentees them security and protection. If the State cannot protect those who paid jizyah, then the amount they paid is returned to them.”
I want to know from where did you get the “doubling of other taxes”.
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Read my post again. The Egyptians used to double the land and commercial taxes of dhimmis.
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raceland:
Also like the Zakah it’s calculated as a percentage. So even IF there was no nisab on Jizyah, it keeps decreasing as the wealth decreases, and it’s paid yearly not monthly. So if a rich man pays 2.5% on 1million dinar that’s 25000; lets assume a poor non-muslim has only 50dinar then the Jizyah is 1.25dinars (1.25/year). So it’s not that dramatic as you’re claiming (selling his children and wife 🙂 ). On the contrary as I explained previously poor non-muslims are eligible for the zakat (i.e. muslims give zakat money to poor non-muslims).

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Have you taken into consideration the doubling of all the taxes? No. I didn’t think so.

The evidence that some dhimmis had to sell their women and children was given. If you disagree you have to DISPROVE that – i.e. show that it didn’t happen. You can’t just say it was not possible. That is merely your opinion.
 
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raceland:
That’s your personal opinion, I respect it. Thanks for sharing it with us. And as I mentioned in a previous post, if one doesn’t like the Islamic laws, then please DO NOT convert to Islam.
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There’s no possibility of me converting to Islam. I just like to share with my Catholic friends here how BARBARIC Islam is and how BARBARIC Muslims are for following Islam.
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raceland:
Thanks. And Good answers from your side, but there is still more room for improvement.
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Thanks. That means you have no answer to my posts.
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raceland:
Go back to post #79,

" • Zakah of cultivated land crops blah blah blah
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I’ve already answered this. Did you not read my post where I said the zakat was 2.5% to 20% but I thought in old days it was generally 2.5%?

You didn’t take into consideration the MANY MANY MANY exemptions in the nisab and just went for the headline number.

So, I will ask you: if a Blacksmith earns dirham he pays 2.5% of his wealth.

How come a farmer has to pay 10%?

Is Allah fair or not?
 
To Muslims,
I already know the Islamic punishment for apostacy. And I know what r.gonzales has said on the subject. But he is still EVADING my simple question.

"Is killing apostates right?" Yes or No.

When are you going to answer this simple question, r.gonzales. I really want to know what you PERSONALLY think.

Is it such a difficult question? Your evasion speaks volumes for what you have to hide.

Moderator note: Edited out derrogatory name.
 
By the way, r.gonzales. Please SHOW IT!!!

Since the thread was closed by the moderator I can’t reply to your ridiculous SHOW IT apologetics. But one thing is clear - it’s only your imagination that ‘show it’ means Muhammad was illiterate. I’ll use the analogy, this time substituting Muhammad’s title “Allah’s Apostle” with r.gonzales’s name. Seems pretty fair, I should say.
at the Gonzales’s household in Lahore, Pakistan:

r.gonzales’s mummy: raheem, dear, have your written your name in your textbook yet? We don’t want people to steal your book.

r.gonzales: yes mummy.

r.gonzales’s mummy: Show it to me.

Hmmm… by r.gonzales’s logic, his mummy is illiterate.

You’ve got to do better than that, r.gonzales. How about something ‘EXPLICIT’. You know… like ‘MUHAMMAD WROTE’.

Brilliant, eh?
 
More from Cid to r.gonzales.

Firstly, TEXT DELETED you were the one who said, ‘laisa yuhsinu yaktub’ means lack of proficiency in writing. Check your earlier posts which you made that claim on several occasions.

Now, since I reminded you of it, you claim it means ‘does not write’. Heck, you change your story all the time like an evasive slippery eel. What to expect? You keep on evading a simple ‘yes/no’ question.

Does not write does not mean CANNOT write. We knew Muhammad had scribes to do his writing for him. But we also know he could if he wanted to. That is clear in the hadiths.

BTW: I didn’t ignore your hadith - I just reconciled it with all the other hadiths. You on the other hand, dismissed all the other hadiths by claiming the ludicrous ‘figurative’ excuse. So, tell us, how do we tell the literal from the figurative in ‘Muhammad wrote’?
 
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