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coptic_believer · Dec 11, 2005

Faith101:

Anyway, I found this verse from the Bible, where God says to kill anyone (by stoning) that commits blasphemy (in your interpreation that would mean that someone would have to leave Christianity and say that Jesus is not divine)…i know the old testatment doenst hold much anymore…but you do believe it DID come from God

Leviticus 24 :16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, dying let him die: all the multitude shall stone him, whether he be a native or a stranger. He that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, dying let him die

First of all, it is an anachronism to use Leviticus 24:16 in reference to Christians leaving Christianity and/or saying that Jesus is not divine because Leviticus 24:16 was a commandment for Israelites in the Old Testament period, not for Christians in and after the New Testament period (of course, Christians still benifit from this commandment in that it shows how serious the sin of cursing God is, not that Christians are commanded to do that to Christians (or to anyone else) who curse God today).

Second of all, this verse is not about punishing apostates! It is about punishing Israelites who curse God! read in context with verse 15

“15 “Then you shall speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Whoever curses his God shall bear his sin. 16 And whoever** blasphemes** the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall certainly stone him, the stranger as well as him who is born in the land. When he blasphemes the name of the LORD, he shall be put to death.” (Leviticus 24:15-16)

Clearly it is saying if an Israelite curses his God, he shall bear his sin by being put to death.

r.gonzales · Dec 11, 2005

Rodrigo Bivar:

Until you answer these question, don’t just repeat yourself. Repetition isn’t rebuttal.

you’re one to talk about repetition… you don’t even realise that you’ve already replied to this post by raceland. the more i read your replies to various posts, the more i’m convinced you don’t know where the discussion has been and where it’s going - not to mention all the repetition we saw from you in the other thread.

btw, that thread’s been closed. why don’t you respect the moderator’s decision instead of bring up the issue in a thread that has nothing to do with it? you do know it’s from the forum rules to stay on topic, don’t you?

oh, and f.y.i., i’m not in lahore, nor have i ever been there. you’d think that someone going by the screenname “rodrigo bivar” you’d realise that the surname “gonzales” isn’t even remotely linked to pakistan…

r.gonzales · Dec 11, 2005

correction…

r.gonzales:

now isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black, mr. englishman? .

r.gonzales · Dec 11, 2005

Rodrigo Bivar:

And I know what r.gonzales has said on the subject.

if you already know what i have said on the subject, then your incessant questioning is redundant and pointless. i’m not some non-muslim apologetic trying to defend islam, or even some non-muslim apologetic arguing from the angle of devil’s advocate just to further discussions on this site. i’m a muslim. i believe in islam and believe it to be the truth i.e., i believe that the laws and legislations that are contained within the religion are from Allah and that they are just and wise. one would think that this in and of itself would tell someone what i personally think with respect to these things - after all, i did chose this religion as my faith over the one i was born into and lived as an adherent to for the majority of my life thus far; christianity.

secondly, we’re speaking about islam, its laws and its legislations here. what you, i or anyone else personally feels about any of the issues discussed here is irrelevant.

Faith101 · Dec 11, 2005

coptic_believer said:
coptic_believer said:

First of all, it is an anachronism to use Leviticus 24:16 in reference to Christians leaving Christianity and/or saying that Jesus is not divine because Leviticus 24:16 was a commandment for Israelites in the Old Testament period, not for Christians in and after the New Testament period

Click to expand...

So it DID come from God at one point in time. Do you believe that at any point in time, God would command something unjust and evil? Do you believe that God was unjust and evil when He commanded this?

raceland · Dec 11, 2005

Rodrigo,

Code:

Thanks for answering my replies twice.  Apparently it takes you quite sometime to absorb what I wrote  :) .  But please in your future responses take your time, try to apply some reasonable thoughts and don’t just regurgitate what you already said.

As for the apostasy, Islamic law in my limited knowledge calls for the death penalty. As I explained earlier in post #79:

“This harsh penalty acts as a deterrent to anyone who wants to enter Islam just to follow the crowd or for hypocritical purposes. This will motivate him to examine the matter thoroughly and not to proceed unless he understands the consequences of that in this world and in the Hereafter. The one who announces his Islam has agreed to adhere to all the rulings of Islam of his own free will and consent, one of which rulings is that he is to be executed if he apostatizes from the faith.”

You call them “barbaric laws” that’s again your own opinion. And it’s clear to me that not all non-Muslims share your view, or else Islam wouldn’t be the fastest growing religion, or even growing at all.

For the zillionth time: A non-Muslim who doesn’t like this law, he shouldn’t convert to Islam . You as Christians consider anything as barbaric, because you don’t have your own laws, you don’t have a standard to compare with. You want a religion that fits your own desires.

Death penalty for apostasy is not against free will. You understand the laws of Islam, agreed to them and accepted to live under these laws with your own free will, then if you apostasies you have willingly brought the death penalty to yourself. Why merciful killing, suicide, drug addicts etc… are forbidden. Isn’t this against your free will?

If you are thief, then you’d consider prison or any punishment a limit to your free will. A murderer would consider the capital punishment an act against his free will. Like wise, a person who has doubts in his religion, (his religion doesn’t make sense to him and cannot be explained), would consider death penalty for apostasy as a limit to his free will

.

Allah swt gave us the free will but under conditions, we have rules and laws, that we have to abide by; or else there will be no difference between us and the beasts living in the jungle.

Salam

Tanith · Dec 11, 2005

I just realize how far is us, human, from TRUE HUMANITY, that some people here accepted death penalty from what it’s said to be God’s, without even questioning it. Harm NONE. Shame on you, to shed the blood of your fellow human, just because he/she is different and because he/she thinks differently. Apostasy doesn’t harm anyone, why should it is condemned with death penalty? Isn’t it sound like a cruel human’s law than from a DIVINE GOD? In search of truth, why should some people tried to intimidate other people to stay in a RELIGION that he/she no longer believes?

Rodrigo_Bivar · Dec 11, 2005

r.gonzales:

if you already know what i have said on the subject, then your incessant questioning is redundant and pointless. i’m not some non-muslim apologetic trying to defend islam, or even some non-muslim apologetic arguing from the angle of devil’s advocate just to further discussions on this site. i’m a muslim. i believe in islam and believe it to be the truth i.e., i believe that the laws and legislations that are contained within the religion are from Allah and that they are just and wise. one would think that this in and of itself would tell someone what i personally think with respect to these things - after all, i did chose this religion as my faith over the one i was born into and lived as an adherent to for the majority of my life thus far; christianity.

secondly, we’re speaking about islam, its laws and its legislations here. what you, i or anyone else personally feels about any of the issues discussed here is irrelevant.

Still, I’m asking you: “is killing apostates right?” Yes or No.

Oh, how the Catholics must be laughing at the Muslim evasion of such a simple question.

So - please SHOW IT, r.gonzales. SHOW IT.

Tanith · Dec 11, 2005

I think in Islam it has been said that apostasy means death, Rodrigo. OOH I know what you mean. Gonzales, Rodrigo wants YOUR OPINION if killing apostates is right or not. So you can answer it based on your OPINION. Don’t be afraid, you can answer differently from what is legislated by your religion (that it is right). I am sure you will say NO. Please answer, Gonzales. Let me know that there’s still a humanity inside you.

r.gonzales · Dec 11, 2005

Tanith:

Shame on you, to shed the blood of your fellow human, just because he/she is different and because he/she thinks differently.

i always find it amusing how people put “thou shalt not kill” above the very first commandment of “thou shalt not worship any other god than Me”.

Tanith:

Apostasy doesn’t harm anyone,

this is your opinion.

Tanith:

Isn’t it sound like a cruel human’s law than from a DIVINE GOD?

i suppose you think that the death penalties legislated by your God as found in the old testament sound cruel and inhumane as well, right?

Tanith · Dec 11, 2005

My God? Please read my profile, dear. And my other threads. But I am disappointed with you. So you answer YES? Even if I ask your opinion, not religious dogmas? Is your religion really bad that it prescribes death to apostasy and brainwash good people like you to be a blood thirst robot? Oh, what on earth. I hope you will find the way. Please read Toltec Teaching. I hope you will find enlightment.

Tanith · Dec 11, 2005

Why are you full of subsconscious hatred, Gonzales, especially to Christianity? That when I asked you about death penalty to apostasy, you thought I was a Catholic? I suggest you meditating, find peace in your heart, apart from all the craziness of religions taught you. May you find the TRUE WAY.

Ching_PBUH · Dec 12, 2005

raceland:

You call them “barbaric laws” that’s again your own opinion. And it’s clear to me that **not all ** non-Muslims share your view, or else Islam wouldn’t be the fastest growing religion, or even growing at all.

Not all non-Muslim? How conveniently said! Was there a poll? Fastest-growing doesn’t mean it is THE TRUTH! Remove the “death-penalty” and the you’ll see how many true muslims remain!

For the zillionth time: A non-Muslim who doesn’t like this law, he shouldn’t convert to Islam .

Conversion is a matter of saying the Sahadah. In a lot of cases the sahadah is uttered because of LOVE, i.e. for want of marriage

You as Christians consider anything as barbaric, because you don’t have your own laws, you don’t have a standard to compare with. You want a religion that fits your own desires.

How ignorant can you be! It is because we have a much better humane solution to the problem that we view yours as inhumane! Apostasy has its cause. Islam does not treat the cause but rather try to treat the symptom. Apostasy is caused by the lure of material or worldly things, things of the flesh. These are caused by the lure or temptation of Satan. Satan is always trying his very best to draw man away from God. Apostasy means Satan has somehow won this tussle. What do we Christians do? We pray for the victim, we assist him, the community assist him in every way possible but we are not to lay our hands on him! The story of The Prodigal Son in the NT is about apostasy … read it so you’ll know Christians have a far, far, far better law regarding the issue than Muslims!

Why must we punish our own fellow human using God’s Laws, when even God does not command us to kill!? Are we ourselves sinless? What good does killing do? You will not solve the problem, you are not giving him any chance to repent and come back like in the parable of the prodigal son!

Death penalty for apostasy is not against free will.
You understand the laws of Islam, agreed to them and accepted to live under these laws with your own free will, then if you apostasies you have willingly brought the death penalty to yourself.

Apostasy is against free will! Ask a liberal muslim who have been a muslim since birth and you’ll see that even these muslims do not know the penalty for apostasy! In some countries muslims choose not to impose it so hardened muslim take it to mean apostasy has no punishment, which is wrong!

Why merciful killing, suicide, drug addicts etc… are forbidden. Isn’t this against your free will?

… and so is stealing and robbing!!! I wanna steal and rob for a living and nobody’s gonna stop me! That my choice! How about that?

Free will is governed by the Golden Rule which Jesus endorses and which is lacking in Islam. Period!

coptic_believer · Dec 12, 2005

Faith101:

So it DID come from God at one point in time. Do you believe that at any point in time, God would command something unjust and evil? Do you believe that God was unjust and evil when He commanded this?

Click to expand...

God would not command anything unjust and evil. You see, some of the teachings/commandments in the Old Testament were not perfect, the teachings/commandments in the New Testament are perfect and improve on the teachings of the Old Testament.

God revealed His revelations gradually over a long period of time for about 1600 years. His final revelation (the New Testament) contains His perfect teachings/commandments.

Even Quran claims to abrogate some of the earlier ‘revelations’ with better new ones. And the Quran was revealed within a period of only 23 years or so, as opposed to about 1600 years.

See answering-islam.org/Authors/Farooq_Ibrahim/abrogation.htm

answering-islam.org/Quran/abrogatedverses.html

Do you believe the earlier Quranic ‘revelations’, that were abrogated by newer ‘revelations’, were unjust and evil?

Booklover · Dec 12, 2005

r.gonzales:

i suppose you think that the death penalties legislated by your God as found in the old testament sound cruel and inhumane as well, right?

I think it’s so funny that you disown the God of the OT and call him “our” God, when at the same time you say that Islam was the religion from the beginning!:whacky:

Booklover · Dec 12, 2005

raceland:

Rodrigo,

Thanks for answering my replies twice. Apparently it takes you quite sometime to absorb what I wrote . But please in your future responses take your time, try to apply some reasonable thoughts and don’t just regurgitate what you already said.

As for the apostasy, Islamic law in my limited knowledge calls for the death penalty. As I explained earlier in post #79:

You call them “barbaric laws” that’s again your own opinion. And it’s clear to me that not all non-Muslims share your view, or else Islam wouldn’t be the fastest growing religion, or even growing at all.

For the zillionth time: A non-Muslim who doesn’t like this law, he shouldn’t convert to Islam . You as Christians consider anything as barbaric, because you don’t have your own laws, you don’t have a standard to compare with. You want a religion that fits your own desires.

Death penalty for apostasy is not against free will. You understand the laws of Islam, agreed to them and accepted to live under these laws with your own free will, then if you apostasies you have willingly brought the death penalty to yourself. Why merciful killing, suicide, drug addicts etc… are forbidden. Isn’t this against your free will?

If you are thief, then you’d consider prison or any punishment a limit to your free will. A murderer would consider the capital punishment an act against his free will. Like wise, a person who has doubts in his religion, (his religion doesn’t make sense to him and cannot be explained), would consider death penalty for apostasy as a limit to his free will .

Allah swt gave us the free will but under conditions, we have rules and laws, that we have to abide by; or else there will be no difference between us and the beasts living in the jungle.

Salam

Wrong, God gave us 'COMPLETE" free will, with no strings attached!

Our Catechism states:

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel’, so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts. See 26 & 27.

Vickie

coptic_believer · Dec 12, 2005

catholic.com/library/endless_jihad.asp

The Jihad Genocide of the Armenians By Andrew G. Bostom
andrewbostom.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55&Itemid=27

A Modern Jihad Genocide By Andrew G. Bostom
andrewbostom.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=27

Palestine during the “Golden Age of Islam” By Andrew G. Bostom
andrewbostom.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=27

Booklover · Dec 12, 2005

Faith101:

So it DID come from God at one point in time. Do you believe that at any point in time, God would command something unjust and evil? Do you believe that God was unjust and evil when He commanded this?

Click to expand...

But God in the New Testament in the Person of Jesus Christ, abolished the old order and established a new covenant of peace and justice for all mankind!

What I see is that you Muslims will continue to bring up the OT to confuse the issue and distract us from all the atrocities being perpetrated by Islam, which of course you claim have been “legislated” by your “Allah” (i.e. Mohammed)

Vickie

r.gonzales · Dec 12, 2005

Booklover:

I think it’s so funny that you disown the God of the OT and call him “our” God, when at the same time you say that Islam was the religion from the beginning!

what i find funny is the fact that you don’t realise that my use of “your” is to stress the fact that the God you claim is love is the One who legislated these laws as found in your scripture. the only ones disowning anything are those who claim to follow a book, yet “disown” the beginning half of it, passing it off as old fairy tale lessons whose laws and legislations are not followed any longer due to their claims of abrogation.

Booklover · Dec 12, 2005

JimG:

So are we to conclude then, that Islam is opposed to religious tolerance as a matter of principle? That exercising one’s conscience could in fact get you killed?

Yes!

If that is the case, then do Muslims living in Western countries consider the existence of other religions to be a necessary evil?
Or is it an evil that must be eradicated?

They believe that all other religions should be eradicated from the face of the earth and sharia laws should be enforced everywhere.

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Vickie

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