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In many ways, the period of history covered by the Old Testament books was indeed barbaric. Many of the OT laws which strike us as barbaric (i.e. -an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth) were in fact mitigations of previously even more barbaric practices (i.e. taking revenge against an entire family or tribe.)

God works within the existing framework of society to bring about the fulfillment of His purpose, just as a father shepherds his children through various means, depending on their stage of maturity, to bring them finally to adulthood. The trouble with Islamic law is that it takes that barbaric era as the norm, setting it forever in stone, while refusing to allow the Shepherd to gude them further.
 
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r.gonzales:
what i find funny is the fact that you don’t realise that my use of “your” is to stress the fact that the God you claim is love is the One who legislated these laws as found in your scripture. the only ones disowning anything are those who claim to follow a book, yet “disown” the beginning half of it, passing it off as old fairy tale lessons whose laws and legislations are not followed any longer due to their claims of abrogation.
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That is not true! We are not passing off the OT as old fairy tales as you call it, or it wouldn’t be part of the Bible. All we’re saying is that God in the NT in the person of Jesus Christ, abolished the old laws and established a new covenant of peace and justice for all mankind!

Vickie
 
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JimG:
God works within the existing framework of society to bring about the fulfillment of His purpose, just as a father shepherds his children through various means, depending on their stage of maturity, to bring them finally to adulthood.
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Good point Jim! This is something we should always keep in mind.

Peace,

George
 
coptic_believer said:
God would not command anything unjust and evil. You see, some of the teachings/commandments in the Old Testament were not perfect, the teachings/commandments in the New Testament are perfect and improve on the teachings of the Old Testament.
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Ok. I believe that i misunderstood you. So you dont find any cruelty, injustice, or evil in the death penalty as legislated in Islam (being that it was the same as the one you believe God legislated in the old testament).
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Booklover said:
Faith101 said:
But God in the New Testament in the Person of Jesus Christ, abolished the old order and established a new covenant of peace and justice for all mankind!
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So you believe he came to abolish the old order and establish a new covenant, while he said “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17).
What I see is that you Muslims will continue to bring up the OT to confuse the issue and distract us from all the atrocities being perpetrated by Islam, which of course you claim have been “legislated” by your “Allah” (i.e. Mohammed)😦
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Something that is legistaled by Allah is one thing and things done in the “name of Islam” are another. Which are you talking about?
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Booklover:
Wrong, God gave us 'COMPLETE" free will, with no strings attached!

Our Catechism states:

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel’, so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts. See 26 & 27.

Vickie

Vickie, you too have laws that are legislated by your Creator. Things like dont kill, dont commit adultery, etc. Your free will comes in when you CHOOSE to be a Christian…once you make that choice, you have to abide by the laws the God has legislated for you.

And if you ignore the will of God, and abide by your own desires…then you become more like a beast rater than a human being.
 
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Faith101:
Vickie, you too have laws that are legislated by your Creator. Things like dont kill, dont commit adultery, etc. Your free will comes in when you CHOOSE to be a Christian…once you make that choice, you have to abide by the laws the God has legislated for you.

And if you ignore the will of God, and abide by your own desires…then you become more like a beast rater than a human being.
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Do you consider shedding human blood every time someone sins, acting like a human being?

Vickie
 
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Booklover:
Wrong, God gave us 'COMPLETE" free will, with no strings attached!
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actually, you’re wrong. there’s no such thing as complete free will. your will is dependant on Allah’s will and you are bound by your limits as a human, be they mental or physical.

you are also bound by the laws and legislations of the land you live in - unless of course you’re not a law abiding citizen.

your reasoning in accusing islam of not allowing free will due to the fact that its legislated punishment for apostasy is death is akin to accusing Allah of allowing free will for making idolatry, stealing and fornication forbidden in your OT, let alone legislating the various punishments He ordained for those crimes. likewise you accuse all these countries with legal systems in place to punish people who commit crimes of the same thing.

this way of thinking you exhibit is very much symptomitic of one of your central tenets; that jesus died for the sins of mankind. such a belief implies lack of accountability. people can do pretty much whatever they want without the need for repentance, because as long as they accept jesus the messiah as their lord and savior, their sins will be forgiven.

contrary to this however, Allah has given mankind the ability to choose between various options in life. and every choice we make has its consequences. if you commit a sin or a crime, you will face the repercussions of that act either in this life or the next and if you do a good deed in obedience to Allah, then you will be rewarded for your actions.
 
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Booklover:
Do you consider shedding human blood every time someone sins, acting like a human being?

Vickie
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If every person would be killed for committing a sin, there would be no one on this earth left.

What does this have to do with Islam?
 
So much hatred, Gonzales. Have you done your meditation? And what do you mean by my God? See what I am standing now. God is everywhere, in you and me. Find the God in you. And please get rid the notion that awful action like killing apostates is good. Repent, Gonzales.Let love comes into your heart. If one day, the one you love, for example, your son, your daughter, or your wife, find no reason to believe anymore, do you think you want to kill them? Love, and not hatred, is the answer. Because we have God inside.
 
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Faith101:
Ok. I believe that i misunderstood you. So you dont find any cruelty, injustice, or evil in the death penalty as legislated in Islam (being that it was the same as the one you believe God legislated in the old testament).
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Yes I do find cruelty, injustice and evil in the death penalty as legislated in Islam! especially the death penalty on apostates! (because if someone was born in a Muslim family (or if someone converted to it without knowing about this punishment etc), and wanted to leave it, he doesn’t even have the freedom to do so! At least, when Muslims who get killed for adultery etc they accept their punishment in accordance with what they believe God commanded)
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" 1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. **
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”** 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”" (John 8:1-11)

Glory be to the Lord Jesus Christ, who taught us the most perfect, pure and wise teachings!
 
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Tanith:
And what do you mean by my God?
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my last reply wasn’t addressed to you.
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Tanith:
God is everywhere, in you and me.
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not according to my beliefs.
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Tanith:
Let love comes into your heart.
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i already have love in my heart; love for what Allah loves and is pleased with.
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Tanith:
If one day, the one you love, for example, your son, your daughter, or your wife, find no reason to believe anymore, do you think you want to kill them?
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if one day, Allah forbid, my wife or my children apostate from islam, then the legislated punishment is death. however, it is not upon me to take matters into my own hands and apply this punishment upon them. that duty falls upon the islamic courts and rulers - of which there are none in the country that i currently reside in.
 
"QUESTION
  1. Code: 
        What is to be made of a religion that forbids a man to think and choose for himself?  In effect, Islam is a type of religious slavery.  "Leave Islam, and you die".
  2. Code: 
        How does this mental bondage affect society, and it's ability to provide for it's people?
  3. Code: 
        Leaving Islam doesn't necessarily mean a person is now at war with his people.  Isn't it possible for a person who is born a Muslim to serve his country, and do no harm to it's people?"
answering-islam.org/Silas/apostasy.htm
 
r.gonzales said:
[if one day, Allah forbid, my wife or my children apostate from islam, then the legislated punishment is death. however, it is not upon me to take matters into my own hands and apply this punishment upon them. that duty falls upon the islamic courts and rulers - of which there are none in the country that i currently reside in.
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You should be thankful to live in such a lovely place where apostate is not punished to death. However I don’t see you mind if you were to live under sharia law and get your wife (wives??) or children apostate and punished to death. What a life Gonzales… :nope: You seem lost your humanity in the name of your Allah. :gopray2:
 
coptic_believer said:
1) What is to be made of a religion that forbids a man to think and choose for himself?
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so when Allah legislated His ten commandments as found in the OT as well the punishments for breaking them, was He forbidding man to think and choose for himself too?
 
Cyber Knight:
You seem lost your humanity in the name of your Allah. :gopray2:
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on the contrary, humanity’s sole purpose in this wordly life is to worship one’s Creator alone without associating anything with Him in worship, believing in Him and obeying His laws, loving and hating the things He loves and hates.

this is what defines humanity… and my wife and i have found it with islam.

oh, and btw, there’s a very slim to none chance that my wife would ever apostate (and Allah knows best). and that’s not because of fear for being put to death either. she’s a convert to islam who left catholicism after discovering the truth of islam.
 
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r.gonzales:
so when Allah legislated His ten commandments as found in the OT as well the punishments for breaking them, was He forbidding man to think and choose for himself too?
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here’s the link for you all to read.
religioustolerance.org/chr_10ci.htm
I may quote some statement here
The Ten Commandments are a brief summary of certain basic rules of behavior. They do not specifically address some of the most active of today’s moral controversies, such as abortion, corporal punishment of children, **the death penalty, ** equal rights for homosexuals, same-sex marriage, physician assisted suicide, pre-marital sex, etc.
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