90 Minutes in Heaven / Heaven is Real

  • Thread starter Thread starter tabsie3210
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I have read that it is possible to create experiences similar to NDE’s simply by applying the proper stimulus to the brain.

Does this mean that there are not some NDEs that are not genuine spiritual experiences? Certainly not. It is in fact, quite possible to dispose a person to experience the spiritual through altering or stimulating the physical brain.

However, all spiritual experiences, NDEs included, are capable of being spiritually false, that is angels of light that are actually angels of darkness in disguise.

One should not presume that these experiences are genuinely from God simply because they include a vision of Him appearing.

Experiences that contradict Catholic doctrine are not from Him.
 
I studied NDE much in grad school when I was teaching a class for teachers on dealing with terminal children. I cannot remember the name of the author (Moody? maybe). Anyway, there was a doctor who traveled all over the world and studied NDE in children and adults. Almost all had similiarities to the point of excluding cultural experiance. As to the Muslims seeing one whom they interpeted as Mohamed, Why would that be surprizing? Might not Jesus be misidentified as Mohamed? Mary appears as one of the local culture (for example Our Lady of Guadalupe).

Many people do not want to share their NDE as it is so overwhelming.

A woman who was our neighbor when I was growing up had a number of NDE when she was in the hospital for a heart attack. She was Methodist and I would have not doubt that she DID see Jesus. She was the most holy woman I have ever known.

I bet more and more NDE’s and Apparitions of Mary will happen as we get more into end times.
 
Tabsie:

I read “90 Minutes in Heaven” when it first came out about four or five years ago. I found it to be very uplifting, even though Don Piper’s tortured recovery had left him convalescing for several years after the accident and caused him much emotional anguish – why did God bring him back only to suffer so much?

I have a son who is a Paramedic and reading the injuries suffered by Don Piper left me with no doubt that his survival can only be described as a true miracle. I had the opportunity to see Don Piper in person a few months ago when he came to a nearby Baptist church. Knowing his injuries, I was astonished to see him walk without a limp across the stage and later, as he signed a book, to see how few scars he has – although he quickly points out that under his clothes he looks like he’s been through a combine.

(For those of you who have not read the book, Don Piper was at a retreat for Baptist preachers in Texas. He left on a Wednesday morning and took a different route than normal for his several-hour trip home. When crossing a bridge, a tractor trailer came barreling down towards the bridge and all 9 wheels of the truck ran over his Ford Escort. His car was decimated and his leg was severed, his arm was severed, his chest was crushed and impaled by the steeering wheel – among other injuries. He had no pulse and was pronounced dead by four EMT teams.)

When I first read the book – knowing that he was a Baptist preacher – I coudln’t help but see how many things were decidedly “Catholic” yet invisible to this man. I wished I could have the opportunity to shake him and say… “LOOK! Can’t you SEE? This is what CATHOLICS believe! You are affirming a CATHOLIC Tradition!!!” But, like many of my Protestant friends, their eyes and ears are closed.

Here are just two that quickly come to mind:
  1. When the road was shut down due to the accident on the bridge, another Pastor who was in the traffic felt God leading him to go up and see if he could be of any help. When he got there the other victims had all been taken away in an ambulance and the Pastor was told there was nobody left to help. The Pastor asked about the person in the crumpled red car and was told he was dead. He felt God leading him to go over there anyway and pray over him, even though he didn’t believe in praying for the dead. The EMT’s said it was too dangerous with all the twisted metal and the body was badly torn apart. He said he had been a medic Viet Nam and none of that bothered him. As he prayed over Don Piper and then sang a song (“What a Friend We Have In Jesus”), Don Piper suddenly began singing along with him. Terrified, he ran off and started yelling at the only ambulance that was left, “The dead man is singing!” Of course, they didn’t believe him, but the Pastor insisted they go, saying he’d lay down in front of the ambulance until they agreed to check him out. They found a pulse and by the time Don Piper was in a hospital that could address his needs, it had been six hours since the accident. (One startling thing was the documented injuries to his chest. Crushed ribs and a hole where the steering wheel had impaled him. Seen and noted by several Paramedics. Yet, when he arrived at the final hospital that evening, there were no marks on his chest.)
  2. During this time, the police had called Don Piper’s church to let them know he had been in a severe accident. His wife was a teacher and the police couldn’t get in touch with her, so they called the church once they saw his business card. The members of the Church began ripping out pages of the phone book, calling every church listed and asking for prayers and asking them to also call churches. Thousands of people began praying within an hour of the accident.
Don Piper readily admits that his religion doesn’t believe in praying for dead people. Yet, obviously, God doesn’t follow Don Piper’s theology. He brought Don back from the dead as surely as you and I are breathing as we read this post.

WHAT AN AWESOME GOD WE SERVE!

Let’s not just make this a thread about NDE’s. Let’s look at the aspect of God’s Mercy which would enable a man who had no life and little hope of any life to live and tell others about it.

I also felt that the experiece he had could be seen as “Purgatory” or a “purgation” of sorts in that he was not actually IN heaven, but outside of it – allowed to see family members and yet not able to go into heaven and see Jesus. We will never know this side of Heaven who is “right” on the subject of NDEs, but I didn’t see anything in this book that would be worthy of ridicule — from the perspective of Don Piper or from the perspective of theology.

Don’s message is simple – When you are struck with a life-changing situation, your life will never be the same. You must find your “New Normal” and work from there rather than crumbling into a ball or bitterly looking back daily and allowing that situation to control your future.
 
I have not read the book, but i do have my own logical thoughts on NDE. i believe pretty much what some people have said, and that is basically we don’t know if someone enters heaven or if these are visions of heaven. I would also like to say that, even though i am a true Catholic believer, a person’s “NDE” is not legitimized just because it resembles Catholic theology. Something else i would like to say is i hope something that will change people views on death. When a heart stops the person is not dead. So when someone says “i came beck to life” or “he/she came back to life” that isn’t necessarily true. If an embryo is a human life before the heart is even formed than a heartbeat is not what indicates a person from being alive or not. The next thing one who assume as the indicator would be brain waves. But, obvious that is refuted the same way, embryos do not have brains either. Whether or not a person is dead is actually truly indicated by cellular functions. life is whether or not cells are multiplying. fungi or plants don’t have hearts or brains yet they are alive because they have multiplying cells. That’s what life is. Then that which is alive is identified by its DNA, if it has human DNA and multiplying cells then it’s a human person. I know this sounds a bit abortiony, sorry. My point is that most of these NDE aren’t even legitimate because death never even happened, a person cannot enter heaven without dying. If a person has been dead for a few day and came back to life, than that would be something. One more thing, NDE (near death experience) is being used wrongly hear, if a person claimed to have actually entered Heaven or Hell, i think the more proper term would be ADE (after death experience) or OBE (out of body experience) maybe.
 
I have three points to bring up.

1)The below is an excerpt from an interview with Dr. Allan Hamilton, a brain surgeon:

Q. Can you talk about the patient whose brain had to be shut down so you could repair an aneurysm?

DR. Hamilton: This is a technique that’s used on a handful of difficult cases. They put the patient on a heart pump, then cool down the blood. The heart flutters and stops. There’s no blood flow to the brain, and no electrical activity in the brain. Now you can operate on a very significant blood vessel while no blood is flowing through it.

Once the procedure is finished and you realize you’re within the time limit of 20 minutes or so, everybody breathes a sigh of relief. And then the team gets ready to slowly warm the patient up. Sometimes there’s some banter. One of the nurses said she was getting engaged, and that they had gone to this restaurant, and had gotten the ring at this particular store, etc.

When the patient woke, she reported the entire conversation. While her heart was stopped, while her brain had no activity, she somehow remembered that conversation.

And that is scientifically impossible. If the brain is essentially dead, then how can it make a memory? A case like that shakes you up. You’re getting very close to the Holy Grail: “Is this what we mean by a soul? Is this what we mean by an entity that can exist separate from the physical body and the brain?”

end of excerpt.

  1. Acts 14:11-18 is where Paul was stoned for the gospel. There is good reason to believe that Paul died and was ‘brought back’ and is when Paul speaks of a man (most likely himself) being caught up to Paradise and heard things unspeakable-2 Corinthians 12:1-10.
  1. And while I am nor denominationally Catholic, wouldn’t Luke 16:19-31 help us to understand that final judgement has not been made or won’t be made until the great Whilte throne judgement in Revelation 20:5, 6 hence the purgatory teaching?
 
I have three points to bring up.

1)The below is an excerpt from an interview with Dr. Allan Hamilton, a brain surgeon:

Q. Can you talk about the patient whose brain had to be shut down so you could repair an aneurysm?

DR. Hamilton: This is a technique that’s used on a handful of difficult cases. They put the patient on a heart pump, then cool down the blood. The heart flutters and stops. There’s no blood flow to the brain, and no electrical activity in the brain. Now you can operate on a very significant blood vessel while no blood is flowing through it.

Once the procedure is finished and you realize you’re within the time limit of 20 minutes or so, everybody breathes a sigh of relief. And then the team gets ready to slowly warm the patient up. Sometimes there’s some banter. One of the nurses said she was getting engaged, and that they had gone to this restaurant, and had gotten the ring at this particular store, etc.

When the patient woke, she reported the entire conversation. While her heart was stopped, while her brain had no activity, she somehow remembered that conversation.

And that is scientifically impossible. If the brain is essentially dead, then how can it make a memory? A case like that shakes you up. You’re getting very close to the Holy Grail: “Is this what we mean by a soul? Is this what we mean by an entity that can exist separate from the physical body and the brain?”

end of excerpt.

  1. Acts 14:11-18 is where Paul was stoned for the gospel. There is good reason to believe that Paul died [and was ‘brought back’ and is when Paul speaks of a man (most likely himself) being caught up to Paradise and heard things unspeakable-2 Corinthians 12:1-10.
  1. And while I am nor denominationally Catholic, wouldn’t Luke 16:19-31 help us to understand that final judgement has not been made or won’t be made until the great Whilte throne judgement in Revelation 20:5, 6 hence the purgatory teaching?
I’m not sure we can say that this woman’s brain was “essentially dead.” Dead does not mean a lack of blood; it means the cells are nonworking and deteriorated. The cooling of the blood holds off that deterioration. A lack of blood will lead to death, but in these conditions her brain was no more “essentially dead” than one of your limbs, “falling asleep” when pinned under your body and having no blood, is “dead.”

How did they know there was no electrical activity? Were leads attached to her head while surgeons were working inside her head? (I assume the aneurysm was in her head).

That’s the problem with n.d.e. in general: seldom, if ever, is the body’s condition even resembling actual death. There is still potentially something going on above the neck, and the “experience” could hypothetically begin there. N.d.e. in itself will never prove life everlasting.

And I’m not sure if Luke 16 has anything to do with deferred Judgement or Purgatory. Christ never suggests that the man in Hades could ever be released or prayed out of it. While I do not know Greek (yet), He seems to describe a permanent situation.

I agree with you about Ac and 2Co, but would like to see an authoritative source making the connection.

I am glad this topic is being talked about!
[/quote]
 
I love ya ALT Grannie 👍

While it isn’t completely on topic, Spiritdaily has an excellent archived article today-May 28, 2009 concerning Marino Restrepo and a few things the Lord showed Bro Marino.
One thing is certain, the Lord’s ways are so much higher than our ways!🤷
 
I love ya ALT Grannie 👍

While it isn’t completely on topic, Spiritdaily has an excellent archived article today-May 28, 2009 concerning Marino Restrepo and a few things the Lord showed Bro Marino.
One thing is certain, the Lord’s ways are so much higher than our ways!🤷
Why thanks, Pugdog! I’ve watched this thread carefully. That book happens to be a favorite of mine, not because of the theology, but because of the sense of awe that it gave me about God. This man had no axe to grind or life to change…he was already following God to the best of his limited knowledge. His injuries were so extensive that he was no doubt physically dead. After all, they declared him dead almost immediately and for ninety minutes he lay there with no triage. His amputated arm and leg were left where they were. Nobody can survive that kind of blood loss.

Yet he did. This other Baptist Preacher readily admits that he was absolutely confounded by the urge he felt came from God to go and pray over this man. It went totally against his belief system – yet he obeyed.

We can all spend countless hours trying to disect the why or the how of all this – NDE’s or ADE’s or whatever. Is it real? Is it fake? Who has the right theory? Or the wrong theory?

I’d rather kneel at His feet, look up at Him and say WOW! I don’t understand it and won’t this side of Heaven – which I pray will be my final home. All I know is that Don Piper relayed this story very unwillingly (read the book) and I believe he has told the story to the best of his ability. I have no reason to doubt his sincerity and just praise God for allowing this man to live to tell his story so that thousands of people can be blessed by it.

What can we learn from it – aside from the discussion about NDE’s?

– God will lead us if we are open to hearing him and FOLLOWING Him. These two Preachers are living witnesses to hearing God’s voice and following in spite of their limited understanding of the why or how behind it.

– We all will suffer losses of some kind. Some more dramatic than others. Living in that moment can keep us from seeing God’s Holy Purpose in that event for our lives. Believing that God will bring good out of it and then actively seeking to find that good will bring us to bless God in spite of our circumstances.

– Some of the beautiful things which Don Piper talks about while he was in Heaven are so beautifl that he says there is no earthly way they can be described. We have no words to describe some of the colors he saw. One thing he mentioned in person that wasn’t in the book was that the entire time he was in “heaven” he heard the flutter of wings – Angel’s wings. He said it was like what you hear when doves take flight near your feet. The comforting sound remains with him to this day – as does the prolific singing in many different languages. We will never know this side of Heaven whether this is truly how Heaven will look to us – but having faith and hope that there is eternal happiness and beauty beyond description is not something I find hard to hold onto.

Isn’t it great just to close our eyes and contemplate that kind of beauty? I readily acknowlege that my mind can never comprehend all that God has prepared for us. But books like “90 Minutes In Heaven” help give me comfort, even if we humans tend to get caught up in discussions about whether NDE’s are real or not! 😉
 
I owend the book, 90 MINUTES IN HEAVEN, which is the story of a Baptist preacher who died for about 90 minutes and had a vision of heaven just outside the gates. Now, Baptists don’t believe in praying for the dead since they don’t believe in Purgatory, but another preacher on the road (both were coming from a convention for Baptist Preachers) came over and prayed for him, and after about an hour and a half, the first man “came back to life,” so to speak.

On the one hand, I don’t buy into a lot of NDEs as presented by the experiencers because they’re often way out there. My personal opinion is, while the situation was very real to the person experiencing it, after coming out of the experience, the experiencer is going to be driven by pre-conceptions, by his ideals and beliefs, by his misinterpretation of what he experienced.

On the other hand, I don’t disbelieve, either, because a lot of stuff in NDEs does resound with the Catholic teachings. Plenty of people have NDEs of Hell, where they come back realizing that there is an eternal punishment, and visions of Hell have turned people into believers. Sometimes their belief is a bit twisted, I think, but other times, it comes through clear like Catholic teachings and the Natrual Law.

The preacher who “died” for 90 minutes had a vision straight out of the Bible. HE doesn’t believe in NDEs much because they sound silly or make no sense, but he honestly believes that he experienced Heaven.

But he wasn’t Catholic.

What of it ?​

We know that Catholics have NDEs.

That’s news to me - NDEs are a load of nonsense, IMHO.​

Father Steven Scheier had one that sent him to hell briefly, but Our Lady asked her Son to send him back to life and see if he wouldn’t shape up, and he did.

If that’s true, it implies that Jesus is bossed around by his mummy, & doesn’t know the future. Besides, Hell is final - according to Catholic dogma.​

I guess what I’m wondering is if Catholics accept that a preacher from another denomination could have actually seen heaven.

Why not ? If any does, who makes that possible - the Church they are in, or God ?​

 
Why do so many of these oxygen starved “hallucinations” involve an encounter with Jesus? Why not not pink rabbits?

For the same reason as these hallucinations don’t take the form of visions of Ganesh - culture. How many Hindu visions are of Jesus or of Catholic Saints ?​

Epileptic hallucinations can be very consistent, but they are still hallucinations. Some of these hallucinations of monks & nuns are probably epileptic in origin.
 

What of it ?​

That’s news to me - NDEs are a load of nonsense, IMHO.
I have to agree.

What needs to be clarified here is the definition of experience as it applies to specific areas.

For instance, when I was younger, my mother told me not to touch the burner on top of the stove because it was hot. Being the rebel I was, I touched it anyways. Needless to say, I got burned. 🙂 Here, the scientific approach of testing a theory via repetition would yield the same results for anyone who has active nerve endings in their fingers. It’s a testable theory that would bring about consistent results.

Where experience should not be the ultimate authority of truth is in the realm of the mystical. When anyone uses experiences in this area to justify what is real or true, then there is no limit to what can be justified.

I won’t repeat arguments that I’ve made in other threads, but there are beliefs in this world that give the semblance of truth and are yet found to be ultimately erroneous.

I wouldn’t give NDEs anymore weight or consideration other than being an interesting tale that gives me something to think about.
 
Whether one ‘believes’ in NDE’s or not isn’t the point, rather are they biblical is the point.

When Stephen was being stoned (and was dying) Stephen saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father. Read Acts 7:54-59. Stephen was not sent back but was received into the presence of God. If we call ourselves believers then these scriptures are not up for debate.
And truth is truth no matter whose from whose mouth it springs forth because all truth belongs to the Creator .🙂
 
The thing is, Don Piper is a very conservative Christian who is anti-abortion, believes Christ is the one King and Only Son of God, and much the same that we Catholics believe, but he’s an OSAS type, too, so he’s not completely in line with the Church of Rome.

My thinking was, was he in a high stage of Purgatory? It wasn’t a sad place or anything, so it doesn’t seem like a lower stage of Purgatory, and I know that some of our Catholic Priests have been approached by souls in Purgatory asking for memorial Masses to be said to release them into Heaven, so I was wondering if anyone thought he was in Purgatory, or if instead he had seen the Lobby of Heaven (so to speak).
I think you have very thoroughly answered your own question!

There are some things to keep in mind.

The Church does not now (and never has) made absolute statements against non-Catholics entering Heaven. In fact, what is truly refreshing and resonates truth is that the Church is very clear that ultimately the decision to let us into Heaven or not is solely the purview of God.

It is therefore quite possible that non-Catholics, perhaps even by the grace of God, non-Baptised people who are virtuous and do the best that they can with the understanding of God that they have. Personally, I have little doubt (though I don’t speculate on this much) that those responsible for leading others astray will receive very, very dire punishments. But those who are born into centuries old heresy (and think it is Christ and truth!) cannot reasonably be held to the same judgement.

WITH THAT SAID…and the following I feel is VERY important…

There is a grave danger in reading into NDEs. Some have used them to bolster the ‘new age’ movement as evidence that Heaven is really only what you believe it to me (sort of like the movie What Dreams May Come). This minister’s experience, because it is so vivid and true, can be twisted to argue that the Church (i.e., the Catholic Church) is not necessary for salvation.

Again, this is God’s station, not mine. But I know for me, a new Catholic filled with the spirit, having been presented clear and obvious information that there can only be one church and that Protestant rhetoric is heresy, I will be judged much harsher now if and when I screw up.

I cannot just wake up one day and say ‘oh well, a Baptist saw Heaven. I don’t feel like going to Mass. I don’t want to confess my sins, it’s too embarassing. In fact, I’ll go ahead and sin a bit, God will understand…’

Furthermore, in my experience, those in the Church who make use of the sacraments honestly are better guided and know right from wrong better than those not in it. How many times have I heard Protestants say stupid things like ‘I love Jesus…but I will [insert mortal sin here] because the Bible is outdated.’ That atttitude is NOT a path to heaven. I doubt that the minister who wrote this book had that mindset!

This is kind of the dark side of echumenism that needs work. Many Catholics think that echumenism is about fushion of the Church with the various sects. No! It is about getting those in heresy back into the Church!

My fear is that some Catholics will use this as justification for not going to Mass, not confessing sins, for brazenly using artificial birth control, and not living a Christ-like life.

In sum, I tend to think that this minister was on the edge of Purgatory, but inside it (is it not possible for Purgatory to have nice spots?). That is just my opinion.

Let’s never forget Christ’s appearance before Thomas when Christ asked rhetorically if he believed only because he saw Him. We don’t need NDEs to affirm our faith. 👍
 
I tend to think that this minister was on the edge of Purgatory, but inside it (is it not possible for Purgatory to have nice spots?). That is just my opinion.

Let’s never forget Christ’s appearance before Thomas when Christ asked rhetorically if he believed only because he saw Him. We don’t need NDEs to affirm our faith. 👍
Let’s assume for the moment that he did in fact see Heaven. He did not get to remain there; and, in fact, has done intense penance since then, solely from his broken body. Might it not be that he was given a reassurance of the reward (in Eternity) he would have for sufferings yet to be completed?

Far different from sinning at will and expecting to go to Heaven!
 
Oh my!
Suffering isn’t a penance. Suffering is being invited by Our Most Holy Lord to share in a glorious future with Him and to be in His daily presence while still in the body.
Suffering is misunderstood.
No doubt this is why suffering is considered a mystery.
 
There is no where in the Bible that it is said “You must be Catholic to enter Heaven.” It only says that you shall not enter Heaven except through Jesus Christ.

That being said, even para. #847 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church supports the fact that all people are open to salvation, even those who do not believe in Jesus…but believe that the religion that they are following is the ‘one true religion’ (e.g. Buddists, Muslims, Hindus, etc.).

Can you imagine all the billions of people in Communist China who have lived and died under that regime – believing that the “State” was their version of God? Do you really think that God created all those billions of people, who had the misfortune of being born in Red China, only to all go to hell because they were not Catholics? What kind of God would that be?. …certainly not the One that I adore!

If only we could look at each other…as God does!
 
Are there actually different stages in purgatory? Does the Church have any teachings on what it belives might happen in purgatory? Because I read that book (90 minutes in heaven) and I was thinking maybe he had already experienced purgatory and he was on his way to heaven from there. I think the idea of different stages of purgatory kind of makes sense too though.
 
Andy -

My thinking was, was he in a high stage of Purgatory? It wasn’t a sad place or anything, so it doesn’t seem like a lower stage of Purgatory, and I know that some of our Catholic Priests have been approached by souls in Purgatory asking for memorial Masses to be said to release them into Heaven, so I was wondering if anyone thought he was in Purgatory, or if instead he had seen the Lobby of Heaven (so to speak).
Are there actually different stages in Purgatory? Like does the Church teach anything or have people had visions, etc? Because I read that book (90 minutes in heaven) and my first thought was that he had already gone through Purgatory and was on his way from there to heaven. He said when he was at the gates he didn’t think about earth at all, so maybe he forgot about Purgatory too? The thing about different stages in Purgatory also makes sense, though.
 
Are there actually different stages in Purgatory? Like does the Church teach anything or have people had visions, etc? Because I read that book (90 minutes in heaven) and my first thought was that he had already gone through Purgatory and was on his way from there to heaven. He said when he was at the gates he didn’t think about earth at all, so maybe he forgot about Purgatory too? The thing about different stages in Purgatory also makes sense, though.
Purgatory by F.X. Schouppe
containing records of the visions of the saints. 😃

It’s also a good buy for reading in paperback.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top