A bit confused on teaching of divorce

[firead]

He admits to not having the Catholic faith during the wedding vows? The wedding was not Catholic? He held heterodox beliefs about marriage but kept it secret from you?

Is he still a non believer?

Im sorry about this kind of deception and affliction. Who did perform the wedding ceremony?

I converted to Catholicism over 10 years after our marriage. We were both baptized in Protestant churches when we were younger, before our marriage. When we met, neither of us were practicing Christians and we both identified as “agnostic” or non-religious, so we were living together.

At the time of the wedding, I had just returned to Christianity, but through a Baptist church, and we were told we needed to get married because we were living in sin. I was uncomfortable marrying someone who wasn’t Christian and was looking to move out, but a few weeks later he went forward and prayed to “accept Jesus” and repent of his sins, publicly commited to living as a Christian, and joined the church (this is how that church taught salvation & a commitment to Christianity). He later told me this was not because of true belief, but just because it was expected and he did not want to lose me - I believe this because nothing about his life changed - I don’t know that he ever prayed, read the Bible, or anything outside of church. He is still not a Christian and is rather hostile to Christianity in general, but he is at least allowing me to raise our son Catholic, so that’s something.

We were married by a justice of the peace, because that church wouldn’t accept members who were living together and not married, but wouldn’t marry people who were not members. I asked my priest about this before joining the church and he said that it was still considered valid because we were both baptized Christians at the time and not bound to canon law, and that convalidation was not necessary.

At the time of our marriage, he was hiding several things from me (cross-dressing and sometimes he says same-sex attraction, but this keeps changing). He evidently had plans to continue these things behind my back and planned to convince me into an “open (nonmanogamous) marriage” and fetishistic lifestlye. Since this trans thing has become popular, he has visited websites devoted to that and tried to tell me he was going to become a woman. That is the one dealbreaker for me - I can live with the rest and hope for change (mainly, I am trying to get him into counseling because I think some things are related to his childhood & because this is much more like a fetish than the “born in the wrong body” type stories I’ve seen from people who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria), but I will not stay with him if he cheats or starts dressing as a woman in front of our son. I just don’t want to give up and abandon him to these lifestlyes by leaving, because it would destroy him.

 

[rcwitness]

I converted to Catholicism over 10 years after our marriage. We were both baptized in Protestant churches when we were younger, before our marriage. When we met, neither of us were practicing Christians and we both identified as “agnostic” or non-religious, so we were living together.

At the time of the wedding, I had just returned to Christianity, but through a Baptist church, and we were told we needed to get married because we were living in sin. I was uncomfortable marrying someone who wasn’t Christian and was looking to move out, but a few weeks later he went forward and prayed to “accept Jesus” and repent of his sins, publicly commited to living as a Christian, and joined the church (this is how that church taught salvation & a commitment to Christianity). He later told me this was not because of true belief, but just because it was expected and he did not want to lose me - I believe this because nothing about his life changed - I don’t know that he ever prayed, read the Bible, or anything outside of church. He is still not a Christian and is rather hostile to Christianity in general, but he is at least allowing me to raise our son Catholic, so that’s something.

We were married by a justice of the peace, because that church wouldn’t accept members who were living together and not married, but wouldn’t marry people who were not members. I asked my priest about this before joining the church and he said that it was still considered valid because we were both baptized Christians at the time and not bound to canon law, and that convalidation was not necessary.

At the time of our marriage, he was hiding several things from me (cross-dressing and sometimes he says same-sex attraction, but this keeps changing). He evidently had plans to continue these things behind my back and planned to convince me into an “open (nonmanogamous) marriage” and fetishistic lifestlye. Since this trans thing has become popular, he has visited websites devoted to that and tried to tell me he was going to become a woman. That is the one dealbreaker for me - I can live with the rest and hope for change (mainly, I am trying to get him into counseling because I think some things are related to his childhood & because this is much more like a fetish than the “born in the wrong body” type stories I’ve seen from people who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria), but I will not stay with him if he cheats or starts dressing as a woman in front of our son. I just don’t want to give up and abandon him to these lifestlyes by leaving, because it would destroy him.

You sound very sweet. I admire your non judgmental spirit concerning him. You have boundaries and rightly so. I think you are probably right, there was no God based marriage which sought the Church’s Sacrament. He was and is still lost. You obviously have a heart for this fact.

Not that you have asked for my advice, and I don’t know if I would be as mature and Christian as you seem to be, but maybe you should give him the ultimatum, we go through RCIA together (you would be going as his sponsor) and seek healing through the faith and get married in the Church, or we seperate. Then you can restore your faith by seeking Jesus’ help.

I hope you have some good friends and mentors you can lean on during this time. I pray that God provides for your needs. Seek His healing and new life.

 

[rcwitness]

I converted to Catholicism over 10 years after our marriage. We were both baptized in Protestant churches when we were younger, before our marriage. When we met, neither of us were practicing Christians and we both identified as “agnostic” or non-religious, so we were living together.

At the time of the wedding, I had just returned to Christianity, but through a Baptist church, and we were told we needed to get married because we were living in sin. I was uncomfortable marrying someone who wasn’t Christian and was looking to move out, but a few weeks later he went forward and prayed to “accept Jesus” and repent of his sins, publicly commited to living as a Christian, and joined the church (this is how that church taught salvation & a commitment to Christianity). He later told me this was not because of true belief, but just because it was expected and he did not want to lose me - I believe this because nothing about his life changed - I don’t know that he ever prayed, read the Bible, or anything outside of church. He is still not a Christian and is rather hostile to Christianity in general, but he is at least allowing me to raise our son Catholic, so that’s something.

We were married by a justice of the peace, because that church wouldn’t accept members who were living together and not married, but wouldn’t marry people who were not members. I asked my priest about this before joining the church and he said that it was still considered valid because we were both baptized Christians at the time and not bound to canon law, and that convalidation was not necessary.

At the time of our marriage, he was hiding several things from me (cross-dressing and sometimes he says same-sex attraction, but this keeps changing). He evidently had plans to continue these things behind my back and planned to convince me into an “open (nonmanogamous) marriage” and fetishistic lifestlye. Since this trans thing has become popular, he has visited websites devoted to that and tried to tell me he was going to become a woman. That is the one dealbreaker for me - I can live with the rest and hope for change (mainly, I am trying to get him into counseling because I think some things are related to his childhood & because this is much more like a fetish than the “born in the wrong body” type stories I’ve seen from people who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria), but I will not stay with him if he cheats or starts dressing as a woman in front of our son. I just don’t want to give up and abandon him to these lifestlyes by leaving, because it would destroy him.

You sound very sweet. I admire your non judgmental spirit concerning him. You have boundaries and rightly so. I think you are probably right, there was no God based marriage which saught the Church.

Not that you have asked for my advice, and I don’t know if I would be as mature and Christian as you seem to be, but maybe you should give him the ultimatum, we go through RCIA together and seek healing through the faith and get married in the Church, or we seperate. Then you can restore your faith by seeking Jesus’ help.

I hope you have some good friends and mentors you can lean on during this time. I pray that God provides for your needs. Seek His healing and new life.

 

[Gorgias]

So, to claim this is grounds for the Church to say that the Sacrament never happened, or was never received? This is strange to me. I don’t think any of the other Sacraments work this way… ?

That’s because, in the sacrament of matrimony, it’s the couple themselves who are the ministers of the sacrament – the priest or deacon only witnesses on behalf of the Church, asking for and receiving the consent of the couple.

Think of it this way: if the priest at Mass or in the confessional didn’t really believe in the real presence or in absolution, and didn’t intend what the Church intends in the sacrament… then the sacrament in that case wouldn’t be valid…!

 

[otjm]

My dad has been thru one divorce, he was married briefly to a women in the early 90s, but it did not work out, they were both catholic and went to the same parish, before they met as well, they were only married for 2 years, they got a legal divorce and the marriage was annulled in the church…Im not sure why the church agreed to annul it though…none of them cheated on each other, they just found they were not meant to be married and live together, IMO, thats enough for a secular, legal divorce, but not in the church, Im still not sure why the church annulled this marriage? Could it be they are granting these more due to the changing world? If that is true, I dont believe that should be happening.

As bad as it sounds, I think the church really should have denied my dads request and asked him to leave the parish or tell him he cannot receive communion anymore as a result of his divorce, but he is on the board at the church and has been for many years, maybe this was the reason?

My answer is probably going to sound harsh, and I don’t mean it to. Most people are not particularly eager to share with others the grounds for a decree of nullity. It is a bit like asking your Dad what he said in confession. While there is no seal related to the decree (as far as the parties are concerned), It may matter to a priest in the future should one of them want to marry (because there may be requirements for one or both parties before the Church would agree to them marrying - such as specific counseling). Other than that,some or much of it may be one or more issues that they (hopefully) are putting behind themselves.

I understand your curiosity. There have been decrees granted, certainly in the past, which were strongly criticized by both John Paul 2 and Benedict 16. However, it should also be noted that while the cases might be criticized as not having established adequate grounds (facts) for the specific basis under which it was granted, that does not meant that some of them (which appeared to be improperly granted) might have had other, valid grounds (which were not put forth).

Contrary to popular opinion and urban mythology, getting a decree of nullity is not either a simple or short process. It generally takes 18 moths to several years to get through (and 18 months is probably fairly rare), and numerous people have spoken about the pain that the process dredges up.

Further, the only statistics that appear to be available show that 7% of divorced Catholics receive a decree. However, 8% who have started the process (which starts normally with the parish priest or other advocate) do not receive a decree (and this includes those in which the tribunal reaches a decision). There are numerous reasons for this: finding out that the grounds which are the basis are not substantiated enough to pass; emotional turmoil stopping the one asking for the decree; change of circumstances (possible future marriage), abandonment of the process and the Church; marriage before the decree is given, and leaving the Church are just some of the possible reasons.

What those statistics show is that 85% of divorced Catholics have not sought a decree of nullity. The statistics are from CARA.

It would appear that you know very little as to why your dad (or his wife) sought a decree of nullity. And it would not surprise me in the least if they would choose not to tell you. Most people don’t seem to want to talk about some of what they see as the darker part of their life. The process is not infallible; but the tribunals try to do the right thing and follow Canon law. many laity really do not understand all of the grounds, and many don’t agree with them, but the Church perhaps has a bit more wisdom (and guidance of the Holy Spirit) on these matters than do the laity. And part of the problem is a lack of understanding what a valid marriage really is.

I hope that helps a bit.

 

[otjm]

So, to claim this is grounds for the Church to say that the Sacrament never happened, or was never received? This is strange to me. I don’t think any of the other Sacraments work this way… ?

While marriage is about the intent of the parties on the day of the marriage (and actually, some of the grounds are a bit more than just that), baptism is also looked on the same way - except that it is not the intent of the person being baptized (or for children, their parents’ intent), but rather, the intent of the individual doing the baptizing. That is why the Church considers, for example, Methodist baptisms valid, but certain other religious entities are considered to not validly baptize.

 

[otjm]

I thought divorce itself is not sinful, provoded you have a legitimate reason and didn’t remarry without a decree of nullity

but the catechism classifies it as grave sin.

and what if someone did get divorced for a reason that’s not considered legitimate? how does that go for receiving communion, ins’t he in a divorced state? or is there no such thing as that?

also, how did catholic societies handle violent, abusive and infidelity if there was no divorce in the past? were spouses permit to live separately at least?

In the words of my high school religion teacher: “It depends!”.

If a couple divorced civilly, and did not have a valid marriage, then they could not commit the sin of abandoning a valid marriage because it did not exist. The validity, however, may not be factually established for quite some time after the divorce. And that is a bit of simplistic moral analysis (and some may disagree with me), but for the sake of the question, divorce may or may not be a grave sin on the part of one or both parties. That, ultimately, is God’s issue, not ours. It is not for us to judge the moral status of another, no matter how many juicy details we may have.

Divorce was rarer (although not necessarily rare) in the past. Much of the issue had to do with civil laws, which varied. The Church presumes a marriage is valid until it is shown that it is not valid; and so in the past, people in marriages that today might be shown to be not valid either soldiered on as best they could, or separated, or left and did something else.

As someone else has already noted, sin can be forgiven in the confessional. It is not an unforgivable sin (although some ex spouses may treat it that way).