A bit judgmental, are we? *small vent*

[Parysa]

On the one hand, it’s great to have a definite definition of sin b/c you, personally, always know where you stand, as opposed to not knowing for sure if you’re sinning or not. On the other hand, however, it sure does seem to breed a lot of judgmentalism. Is it just me or does anyone else see a lot of stones being thrown from glass houses? Do we know someone else’s heart or their intentions? Where did God give us (as opposed to ordained priests and ministers of the Church) the right to judge our fellow Christians? Some days the people on this forum can be some of the nicest people in the world and others, I’ve never seen a more holier-than-thou group of people in my life. People come here asking for help and needing loving counsel and instead get a barrage of judgment heaped on them. What happened to Matthew 7:1-5, “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye”? Why not lovingly educate people about choices that may be sinful? It just seems to me that there’s a lot of judgmentalism going around and that is the biggest thing that is keeping me from joining the Catholic Church.

 

[water]

Hi Parysa and welcome to CAF.

It is not our position to judge one’s heart, but we can judge one’s actions.

In the same way, by observing others’ actions, you decide not to join the Catholic Church yet. If you can see others’ wrong doings, I hope you can see other’s right doings. Read more spiritual books on Catholic saints, I am sure you will learn so much from them.

God bless.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

On the one hand, it’s great to have a definite definition of sin b/c you, personally, always know where you stand, as opposed to not knowing for sure if you’re sinning or not. On the other hand, however, it sure does seem to breed a lot of judgmentalism. Is it just me or does anyone else see a lot of stones being thrown from glass houses? Do we know someone else’s heart or their intentions? Where did God give us (as opposed to ordained priests and ministers of the Church) the right to judge our fellow Christians? Some days the people on this forum can be some of the nicest people in the world and others, I’ve never seen a more holier-than-thou group of people in my life. People come here asking for help and needing loving counsel and instead get a barrage of judgment heaped on them. What happened to Matthew 7:1-5, “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye”? Why not lovingly educate people about choices that may be sinful? It just seems to me that there’s a lot of judgmentalism going around and that is the biggest thing that is keeping me from joining the Catholic Church.

The observation you make is a reflection of judging in itself. Here as in most anywhere where there are humans gathered you will most likely see them at their worst and at their best…ahhh humanity. There are days when I surprise myself and days when I appall myself and at 62 years that has wound in and out my journey. Your observation, be all that as it may, is quite correct in that we should strive always to be lovingly gentle towards others whether in thought, word or action, including at the keyboard. And if we feel we need to correct to do so lovingly gently - if we need to state some truth, to be lovingly gentle. If we want to be judged with Mercy, then it will be in the measure of the mercy we meter out to our fellos. Also, truth stated without love is only a half truth.
I have become even more acutely aware lately that thought always precedes any sort of exterior behaviour and that I have my thoughts to watch most assiduously and bring into line with loving gentless and mutual charity and if only I could amend my thoughts, then my exterior behaviour will follow automatically.

In Catholicism as in most every human institution you will find the heights and the depths where we are on some level or other striving for very high ideals for sure. We are also, as Rocket’s signature points out “battling somewhere”. Some we win, and some we miserably loose. Some are hidden, while others out in the open.
As Water pointed out, if you want to see Catholicism functioning at its very best and in the heights of our ideals, read the lives of the saints…and forgive the rest of us of your kindness and charity…Blessings - Barb

 

[jmcrae]

Hopefully, we are judging actions; not people. But, yes, it gets heated around here; passions do run high - because people really do believe in this stuff; it’s not just something we mouth on Sundays, and then take the rest of the week off.

Also, we have nothing but words to use in a Forum like this - if you see someone about to obliviously wander off the edge of a cliff, and you have nothing but words to use, you shout as loud and as stridently as you can, to get their attention and prevent them from falling down. It might mean seeming “rude” at the time, but if it gets the job done, then it’s worth it.

 

[Parysa]

Hopefully, we are judging actions; not people.

And that right there is the difference. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. People respond better to compassion than to criticism. But there seems to be a lack of compassion and that does absolutely no good for anyone and gives a harmful impression. And BarbaraTherese is right, in the way I phrased my post and the attitude behind it, I was guilty of the very same thing I was complaining about. And she actually did a better job of pointing that out kindly than I did.

 

[hasikelee]

Why is it wrong to make a judgment? And, if you do believe it is wrong:

1. Why are you going against your own beliefs by being judgmental
2. How can you function as a human without making a judgment:?

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Why is it wrong to make a judgment? And, if you do believe it is wrong:

1. Why are you going against your own beliefs by being judgmental
2. How can you function as a human without making a judgment:?

Could it be that assessing for one reason or another is one thing and that judgement includes passing sentence? It can be that part of that sentence is the tone (and content) in which we respond to others. We do need for various reasons in various places to make assessments and if we need to communicate that assessment, then to do so without condemnation and an accusatory tone which is to set oneself up as ‘judge’ : Judge not, that you may not be judged" In other words intrinsic in our call to Catholicism and The Gospel is not to judge. “Judgement is mine said The Lord” and another passage that occurs to me is to remove the beam in my own eye before attempting to move the splinter in another’s eye…and as you see, I am attempting to remove a splinter . We all struggle somewhere or other with something or other…Blessings - Barb

 

[Parysa]

Could it be that assessing for one reason or another is one thing and that judgement includes passing sentence? It can be that part of that sentence is the tone (and content) in which we respond to others. We do need for various reasons in various places to make assessments and if we need to communicate that assessment, then to do so without condemnation and an accusatory tone which is to set oneself up as ‘judge’ : Judge not, that you may not be judged" In other words intrinsic in our call to Catholicism and The Gospel is not to judge. “Judgement is mine said The Lord” and another passage that occurs to me is to remove the beam in my own eye before attempting to move the splinter in another’s eye…and as you see, I am attempting to remove a splinter . We all struggle somewhere or other with something or other…Blessings - Barb

You just summed it up better than I ever could.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

You just summed it up better than I ever could.

I am happy, thank The Lord, that my posts were helpful - I too in these Forums come across the very best that shine beautifully, and those that fall short and cause me to cringe - and mind you - I have been amongst these latter. Sometimes I dont recognize my appalling failure until after an event…and when I do recognize that I have fallen far short of the ideals that I do hold as stated by my Catholic Faith and The Gospel, my prayer then is that next time, tempted to be cruel, discourteous and cutting, that I will curb this urge and strive rather after those high ideals we are called to through our Catholic Faith and The Gospel. Sometimes I have a win, sometimes I loose…and on we go… as St. Paul put it striving to the end (we hope and pray) to win the prize …
St. Paul expressed his human condition and humanity very well “Why is that I find myself doing the very things I have made up my mind not to do?”…
You were very correct in what you pointed out in your Opening Post. We do need to try to do better towards each other and have it as our goal and rule…Blessings - barb

 

[hasikelee]

Could it be that assessing for one reason or another is one thing and that judgement includes passing sentence? It can be that part of that sentence is the tone (and content) in which we respond to others. We do need for various reasons in various places to make assessments and if we need to communicate that assessment, then to do so without condemnation and an accusatory tone which is to set oneself up as ‘judge’ : Judge not, that you may not be judged" In other words intrinsic in our call to Catholicism and The Gospel is not to judge. “Judgement is mine said The Lord” and another passage that occurs to me is to remove the beam in my own eye before attempting to move the splinter in another’s eye…and as you see, I am attempting to remove a splinter . We all struggle somewhere or other with something or other…Blessings - Barb

I don’t see the word “assessment” in the OP’s writing.

I see the word judgment.

So, I am still curious how a human can possible function in a world without judging…although I suppose that is a rhetorically useless question as even when the OP attempts to chastize others for judging, he/she falls under his/her own judgment.

 

[randomguy0187]

I’d like to share an interesting article I read a while back (I might have gotten it from another thread? ) entitled “Three Secret Strategies of Satan to Destroy our Children, our Families, our Culture, and our Church” by Bro. Ignatius Mary.
saint-mike.org/spcdc/library/secret.asp

In the second section of the article he discusses the fallacy of the idea that we are not to judge everyone EVER. To summarize that part, Jesus tells us that there are 3 basic areas in which we are NOT to judge: Judgment of Condemnation, Judgment from Double Standards, and Judgment from Self-Righteousness. He goes on to point out cases from the Bible in which we are instructed to judge.

Essentially, his point is this:

We cannot judge a person’s state of soul, of course. We cannot condemn him. We are also not to judge out of hypocrisy.

But we are to make proper judgments, borne out of love, to admonish a sinner in order to encourage him to repentance. That is the goal, to save the sinner’s soul, to lead him to repentance.

We are to make judgments of behavior, attitudes, and ideas in order to protect our loved-ones and ourselves from danger. People who practice such dangerous and sinful behaviors, or have such dangerous attitudes and ideas, we are to avoid. We cannot avoid them until and unless a judgment has been made that such people are of the type the Bible tells us to avoid.

Of course, people (myself included at times) need to work on understanding how to most effectively deliver such messages. On the other hand, we also need to work on receiving such messages, even if they aren’t delivered in what we would consider an “optimal” manner. Basically, we all just need to show some charity and compassion, both in delivering and receiving.

 

[Parysa]

I don’t see the word “assessment” in the OP’s writing.

I see the word judgment.

So, I am still curious how a human can possible function in a world without judging…although I suppose that is a rhetorically useless question as even when the OP attempts to chastize others for judging, he/she falls under his/her own judgment.

Please see the bolded section below.

And that right there is the difference. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. People respond better to compassion than to criticism. But there seems to be a lack of compassion and that does absolutely no good for anyone and gives a harmful impression. And BarbaraTherese is right, in the way I phrased my post and the attitude behind it, I was guilty of the very same thing I was complaining about. And she actually did a better job of pointing that out kindly than I did.

As for how we can live without judging, it depends on what you mean by judgment and how you understand what I was trying to say.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I don’t see the word “assessment” in the OP’s writing.

I see the word judgment.

So, I am still curious how a human can possible function in a world without judging…although I suppose that is a rhetorically useless question as even when the OP attempts to chastize others for judging, he/she falls under his/her own judgment.

The OP has already pointed out that he/she acknowledges:

the OP attempts to chastize others for judging, he/she falls under his/her own judgment.

…and to acknowledge failure takes humility; hence there is failure but there is something greater at work and that is humility in the face of failure. Lord, please grant in the face of my failures I have the humility to admit my failure…and publicly reveals deep humility. We all are failing somewhere and this is why Jesus, I think, calls us “evil”…
Matthew 7

11

If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?*

I may not have another person’s failure, but I have my own either obvious to others, or hidden from them, and that failure may well be a spiritual pride in not having that other persons failing. Righteousness is not something any one of us can achieve…rather it is bestowed by Jesus as a gratuitious and totally unearned gift on we who are always failing somewhere or other. Hence I have no right whatsoever to be condemning of another and removing, or attempting to, the splinter in my brother’s eye and failing to see the beam in my own by doing so.

This does not mean that one does not point out moral wrongs, but it does mean that in doing so, we are aware of our own shortcomings and failures, even in doing so. It does ask that in pointing out another’s failings that I stand shoulder to shoulder with that person as another failure.

There is a beautiful little story from the Desert Fathers. A young monk in a monastery had been convicted of a quite serious offence and was banned from chapel for a period. Next day the abbot failed to appear in chapel and when asked why, replied “I too am a sinner”.

Blessings - Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Basically, we all just need to show some charity and compassion, both in delivering and receiving.

A good and valid point, I thought, Randomguy.
Blessings…Barb

 

[puzzleannie]

as has been stated repeatedly here, and on the morality forum where posters frequently ask specific advice on whether a certain action which they personally have done, or objectively, is sinful, no one here can state: you have sinned in this instance. the most we can do here is state the objective moral teaching of the Church and assist the poster in applying that teaching to the case, real or hypothetical, stated in the post. that is also why the advice is so frequently given to consult one’s own confessor about one’s own specific moral dilemma. I for one generally regard such postings as hypothetical cases and answer in that vein. If a person asks specific advice however I will give it in the same manner I would if that person were in one of my classes. Stating the objective truth and giving you an honest answer is not being judgemental. We are all called to judge facts and apply objective truth to those facts in forming our own consciences, and in counseling others who need counsel.

Judging the facts is not the same as judging the person. the difference is
Yes, living with your fiance before marriage is a sin according to the teaching of the Church and universal moral law, and here is why, and give the appropriate teaching
vs.
You are sinning and you are a sinner and you are going to burn in hell for it.

the second statement presumes beyond the facts as stated and makes the arrogance of judging their fate, which no human can do.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

as has been stated repeatedly here, and on the morality forum where posters frequently ask specific advice on whether a certain action which they personally have done, or objectively, is sinful, no one here can state: you have sinned in this instance. the most we can do here is state the objective moral teaching of the Church and assist the poster in applying that teaching to the case, real or hypothetical, stated in the post. that is also why the advice is so frequently given to consult one’s own confessor about one’s own specific moral dilemma. I for one generally regard such postings as hypothetical cases and answer in that vein. If a person asks specific advice however I will give it in the same manner I would if that person were in one of my classes. Stating the objective truth and giving you an honest answer is not being judgemental. We are all called to judge facts and apply objective truth to those facts in forming our own consciences, and in counseling others who need counsel.

Judging the facts is not the same as judging the person. the difference is
Yes, living with your fiance before marriage is a sin according to the teaching of the Church and universal moral law, and here is why, and give the appropriate teaching
vs.
You are sinning and you are a sinner and you are going to burn in hell for it.

the second statement presumes beyond the facts as stated and makes the arrogance of judging their fate, which no human can do.

Well said, we may need to assess a moral act or position objectively in that it may contain grave matter and thus potentially mortal, but not judge subjectively. And this is important for those whose ministry may be the instruction of others. We need to be humbly aware that the morality of an act may well be in proportion to the Graces granted and of this we are totally unaware, nor can we be aware. “To him who is given much, much will be expected” We need to be aware that we proclaim a God of Loving Mercy and Forgiveness…and not a Zealously Judging God and determinedly so and we need to strive to reflect this Lovingly Merciful God in our own dispositions with real and active Hope.

Blessings - Barb

 

[reen12]

quote: Parysa

People come here asking for help and needing loving

counsel and instead get a barrage of judgment heaped on them.

I think this a question of what motivates people’s behavior.
I have been witness to [and on the receiving end] of this kind of unlovely behavior from those in other religious traditions, not solely Catholicism.
Puffed up, and self-satisfied, they pour scornful looks and hurtful words on another - all in the name of a loving God.

Possible motives for speaking about God and religious faith?

-a genuine love of God, and a desire to be of help and
support to those around them. To speak in a respectful voice,
and to be emotionally mature enough to understand that
measuring another for a cookie size is not helpful.
[The sons and daughters of God are not cookies that
must fit another’s heartless template.]
“Other sheep I have - that are not of this fold.”

-the legalistic mentality, that doesn’t seem to mind a bit
if a person seeking truth is ridiculed by some members of the “faithful.” Being talked down to - the whole purpose of which seems to be to inflate the ego of the speaker.
These individuals seem to think of themselves as members of some kind of God squad.

What will happen, when these individuals come before Christ one day?

"But, Lord, didn’t we *tell *them? Didn’t we stress the rules?
Didn’t we try to prove that ours was the ‘true faith?’
“Didn’t we defend Your truth?”

And will Jesus answer? Depart from Me. You chose
to speak in My name. You hurt the hearts of some
who sought Me, and some you drove away from Me."
Depart into the everlasting darkness, where you
will never again speak in My name."
That’s what such individuals truly deserve. But Christ is Mercy.
I suspect that even these will be saved, as Christ hears
the prayers of those they hectored, asking Him to
show mercy.

To those who have a seeming zest for judging others -
when they cannot possibly know the other posters heart -
nor their experience in life - I think that such “truth tellers”
are in for the surprise of their lives when they come before Christ.
They had the chutzpah to speak in the divine name -
while showing no understanding of qualms, or doubts,
or limitations, or human weakness whatsoever.

These individuals seem to dote on stressing how it *is *“loving” - to tell another the “truth.”

This, to me, is pure camoflage for the self-inflation brought about
through hectoring others about the “true faith,” or the truths of the faith.
“I’m in the truth, you know.” Oh. Are you?

What these unpleasant souls seem to reek of is:
“Thank God I am not like these others.”
Jesus spotted this kind of self inflation a long, long time ago.

Though I will say this. Some seem to need the structure and
the written rules of a given church to thrive, spiritually.
Rules beyond the ten commandments.
That God be worshipped corporately satifies deep human need, I think, and is consonant with the commandments - both to acknowledge the one God and to keep the sabbath sacred.

It may be of interest to those who thrive on hectoring others,
that there is more than one definition of taking God’s name in vain.

“You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God…”

To pour scorn and judgement on others - while urging them to
join the faithful who serve a loving God, is preposterous on it’s face.
This, too, is “making wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God.”
To “use” God - to justify self-righteous speech. And, come to think of it, this is also a form of sacriledge, I think. To make wrongful use of - or to show disrespect - to those things that are held sacred. And what more sacred than the very image of God Himself. Us. For we are made “in His image and likeness.”
To speak to one of His images in a hurtful, self-righteous
manner, I hold to be sacriledge.

Through the ages God has said: I want *not *your sacrifices.
“I desire mercy and not sacrifice…” Hosea 6

And on the day when those who hector others come to understand this, *then *they can speak in His name with mercy. For then - when each meets Christ - might He not say?

Come, my dearest heart. My sheep and lambs were suffering and you showed mercy. Some of My sheep were hurt of mind and heart, and you cared for them. *You kept My law in mercy. *Come into the everlasting bliss of My pasture, My beloved. You were like Me. A good shepherd. You helped Me to care for My sheep.

reen12

 

[jmcrae]

In my case, it wasn’t until someone explained in plain (and rather rude) language that I was going to go to Hell that I saw a need to convert.

Did I like the guy? NO. Did I convert? YES.

Which of the above is important? That I convert, or that I like the guy who told me that I was going to Hell?

The “Jesus loves you” people were nice to be around, and I liked them a lot, but they weren’t getting the message through to me.

Sometimes, people need a wake-up call. I know I sure did.

 

[hasikelee]

Please see the bolded section below.

As for how we can live without judging, it depends on what you mean by judgment and how you understand what I was trying to say.

Hmm, that is a good topic for speculation. What does it mean to be judgmental? What is the real message when accusing someone of being judgmental?

I suppose those are questions for a new thread, though.

 

[Parysa]

Hmm, that is a good topic for speculation. What does it mean to be judgmental? What is the real message when accusing someone of being judgmental?
**
I suppose those are questions for a new thread, though.**

I think those are questions that go along with the original topic and are kind of a natural progression from it. So, I don’t think we need to start a new topic for it.

IMO, being judgmental is when we presume to know another person’s motives or the state of their soul and react negatively according to our perceptions. Also, I don’t believe that we have the right to judge any individual’s salvation when we don’t know and can’t know their heart. We can say, “A person who is not saved is going to hell.” However, saying, “Jane Doe isn’t saved and is going to hell,” is wrong b/c we’re not God and He’s the only one who knows for sure where Jane Doe is going to end up. I think judgmentalism is all in the attitude. That doesn’t mean that if someone says, “I’m not a Christian and I don’t believe in God,” that we can’t say, “Well, you need to change that and here’s why.” But we need to show compassion to sinners b/c we are all sinners. We may sin in different ways, but we are no less sinners than the person “beside” us.