A bit judgmental, are we? *small vent*

[BarbaraTherese]

In my case, it wasn’t until someone explained in plain (and rather rude) language that I was going to go to Hell that I saw a need to convert.

Did I like the guy? NO. Did I convert? YES.

Which of the above is important? That I convert, or that I like the guy who told me that I was going to Hell?

The “Jesus loves you” people were nice to be around, and I liked them a lot, but they weren’t getting the message through to me.

Sometimes, people need a wake-up call. I know I sure did.

God bless you and Deo Gratius indeed for the Grace you received and resonded to totally, which is itself a Grace. The end, however, cannot justify the means …“where sin did abound, Grace did more powerfully abound”…
In other words, there is no justifying or justification for rudeness and judging of another human being, no matter what it may seem to achieve…for it is Grace that achieves not us nor another in any way whatsoever and “The Lord lets His sun shine and His rain fall on the good and the bad equally”…in other words God may channel Grace through a most questionable means…still no justification for questionable means - but for thankfulness to God which I am sure you are.

Blessings - Barb

 

[jmcrae]

God bless you and Deo Gratius indeed for the Grace you received and resonded to totally, which is itself a Grace. The end, however, cannot justify the means …“where sin did abound, Grace did more powerfully abound”…
In other words, there is no justifying or justification for rudeness and judging of another human being, no matter what it may seem to achieve…for it is Grace that achieves not us nor another in any way whatsoever and “The Lord lets His sun shine and His rain fall on the good and the bad equally”…in other words God may channel Grace through a most questionable means…still no justification for questionable means - but for thankfulness to God which I am sure you are.

Blessings - Barb

My point is that the nice stuff wasn’t working. Lots of people tried to entice me off the cliff of doom with promises of candy and hugs and all kinds of wonderful treats. (Actually, they were promising the graces of the Sacraments, and the fullness of Truth. But you know what I mean, right?) But I didn’t “get” why I should want to change my habits. Yes, all that stuff was very nice, but I thought I was just fine as I was; I didn’t see how gaining graces or fullness of truth would be any kind of a significant advantage; after all, everyone wo has good intentions goes to Heaven, right?

And all the nice people were saying, “Well, you know, we like to hope so.” Which I took as an endorsement of my lifestyle; I was just thick-headed enough not to realize that that’s nice-people code for “You’d better wear a fire fighter’s suit to your funeral, dear.”

It took someone putting into rather blunt, plain language before it penetrated my skull. And of course I was thoroughly shocked and offended. “Me? Go to Hell? For what?” So, he very kindly made out a list. Which I realized was an accurate list.

Uh huh. So I sat on that for about a week, and then I said, “Okay, God. REALLY?” And God said, “Yeah, REALLY.”

Uh huh.

So I argued with that for about a month or so, but I already knew I was done; the choice to convert was already made, and it was just a matter of when and where. So when the opportunity came around, I did it, and that’s that.

But if someone hadn’t had the courage to state the truth in easy words of one or two syllables, I’d still be off in la-la land, happy-dancing my way obliviously into Hell.

 

[Parysa]

My point is that the nice stuff wasn’t working. Lots of people tried to entice me off the cliff of doom with promises of candy and hugs and all kinds of wonderful treats. (Actually, they were promising the graces of the Sacraments, and the fullness of Truth. But you know what I mean, right?) But I didn’t “get” why I should want to change my habits. Yes, all that stuff was very nice, but I thought I was just fine as I was; I didn’t see how gaining graces or fullness of truth would be any kind of a significant advantage; after all, everyone wo has good intentions goes to Heaven, right?

And all the nice people were saying, “Well, you know, we like to hope so.” Which I took as an endorsement of my lifestyle; I was just thick-headed enough not to realize that that’s nice-people code for “You’d better wear a fire fighter’s suit to your funeral, dear.”

It took someone putting into rather blunt, plain language before it penetrated my skull. And of course I was thoroughly shocked and offended. “Me? Go to Hell? For what?” So, he very kindly made out a list. Which I realized was an accurate list.

Uh huh. So I sat on that for about a week, and then I said, “Okay, God. REALLY?” And God said, “Yeah, REALLY.”

Uh huh.

So I argued with that for about a month or so, but I already knew I was done; the choice to convert was already made, and it was just a matter of when and where. So when the opportunity came around, I did it, and that’s that.

But if someone hadn’t had the courage to state the truth in easy words of one or two syllables, I’d still be off in la-la land, happy-dancing my way obliviously into Hell.

Yes, sometimes blunt is needed. But blunt can still be done kindly. I sometimes have to be very blunt with my best friend. But, he’s like my brother and knows I love him with all my heart. People on a forum don’t know that. And on a forum, we don’t know that blunt is needed. If someone is just saying the same things over and over and gentle isn’t getting through, yeah, we might need to be blunt. But it can still be done kindly.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, sometimes blunt is needed. But blunt can still be done kindly.

When you’re on the receiving end of criticism of any kind, “kindly” isn’t really a word that applies, no matter how polite your critic is trying to be.

I sometimes have to be very blunt with my best friend. But, he’s like my brother and knows I love him with all my heart. People on a forum don’t know that. And on a forum, we don’t know that blunt is needed. If someone is just saying the same things over and over and gentle isn’t getting through, yeah, we might need to be blunt. But it can still be done kindly.

I don’t know about that. People have a lot of natural pride, and it’s difficult to be proven wrong about anything, let alone one’s basic assumptions about God and life.

 

[Parysa]

When you’re on the receiving end of criticism of any kind, “kindly” isn’t really a word that applies, no matter how polite your critic is trying to be.
I don’t know about that. People have a lot of natural pride, and it’s difficult to be proven wrong about anything, let alone one’s basic assumptions about God and life.

We can’t control how the other person perceives what we’re trying to say. But we can control how we say it.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

My point is that the nice stuff wasn’t working. Lots of people tried to entice me off the cliff of doom with promises of candy and hugs and all kinds of wonderful treats. (Actually, they were promising the graces of the Sacraments, and the fullness of Truth. But you know what I mean, right?) But I didn’t “get” why I should want to change my habits. Yes, all that stuff was very nice, but I thought I was just fine as I was; I didn’t see how gaining graces or fullness of truth would be any kind of a significant advantage; after all, everyone wo has good intentions goes to Heaven, right?

And all the nice people were saying, “Well, you know, we like to hope so.” Which I took as an endorsement of my lifestyle; I was just thick-headed enough not to realize that that’s nice-people code for “You’d better wear a fire fighter’s suit to your funeral, dear.”

It took someone putting into rather blunt, plain language before it penetrated my skull. And of course I was thoroughly shocked and offended. “Me? Go to Hell? For what?” So, he very kindly made out a list. Which I realized was an accurate list.

Uh huh. So I sat on that for about a week, and then I said, “Okay, God. REALLY?” And God said, “Yeah, REALLY.”

Uh huh.

So I argued with that for about a month or so, but I already knew I was done; the choice to convert was already made, and it was just a matter of when and where. So when the opportunity came around, I did it, and that’s that.

But if someone hadn’t had the courage to state the truth in easy words of one or two syllables, I’d still be off in la-la land, happy-dancing my way obliviously into Hell.

I can hear what you are saying…I think the point remains that the end can never justify means and what was at work in you was God’s Grace. I am not advocating my own opinion, rather what The Gospel states including the Epistles which states our call very clearly. The type of attitude that you have stated is just as likely to turn a person completely off as it is to possibly convince…depending on Grace. In your instance, Grace worked with ‘impoverished tools’ as it were - not by my assessment but by The Gospel. I had a smile when you mentioned in a previous post about a person about to wander off a cliff, and one shouts at them to warn them. A shout in such a situation is just as likely to frighten and cause to fall off the cliff as it is to save the situation. Hence shouting is a big risk and an ‘impoverished tool’.
I can insight where you are coming from…because ‘impoverished tools’ worked for you (potentially fluke!), you are inclined towards them. It remains that ends must not and cannot justify the means…in all ‘languages’.
We are called to be missionaries of Jesus of Mercy. Perhaps we may need just to agree to differ, huh? We both seem to be on opposite sides ‘of the fence’ and are unable to cross over it seems, either of us.

Blessings - Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Lost my edit key! I’d just like to point out something that I commented on in an earlier post. Confronted with moral wrong, we do need to point out that it is morally wrong and if grave matter potentially mortal sin and what the consequences of that can be…however, without an actual judgement and condemnation of the person involved and certainly to pray for that person - for it is Grace that accomplishes all be it great, be it small. Christianity and certainly Catholic Christianity is not meant to be, nor called to be, a religion that uses fear as a weapon of control. Blessings - Barb

 

[jmcrae]

We can’t control how the other person perceives what we’re trying to say. But we can control how we say it.

Yes, we can. But I think it’s always going to be taken badly, and the only way not to offend is not to say anything at all. So if the goal is not to offend, then it’s better to change the subject, and not say anything at all.

 

[Parysa]

Yes, we can. But I think it’s always going to be taken badly, and the only way not to offend is not to say anything at all. So if the goal is not to offend, then it’s better to change the subject, and not say anything at all.

Offending is different than judging. You can’t judge without offending, but you can offend without judging. You can tell someone that their actions are bad (which may offend them) without telling them that they themselves are bad (which is judging). Hate the sin, love the sinner.

 

[jmcrae]

Offending is different than judging. You can’t judge without offending, but you can offend without judging. You can tell someone that their actions are bad (which may offend them) without telling them that they themselves are bad (which is judging). Hate the sin, love the sinner.

I have never encountered anybody on this Forum judging anybody’s soul, though. People are strident that abortion is wrong, and that contraception is wrong, and we also get into heated discussions about what is and is not licit and/or appropriate at Mass, but I have never, ever seen anybody say anything to the effect that they personally were definitely going to go to Hell, and certainly never anything that sounded like, “Go to Hell. Go directly to Hell. Do not pass “GO,” and do not collect $200.00.”

So, if you’re okay with people judging actions as wrong, then you should have no problems with this Forum.

 

[MMagd]

Hi Parysa!
I am so sorry that you feel that the issue of judgement is keeping you from joining the Catholic church or any church for that matter!
I can honestly say that I have been where you are!
Having been raised a Presbyterian, while surrounded by Catholic cousins, aunts and uncles, (until I converted at 29 to Catholicism), I was under the impression that “REPENT!” should have been my middle name if any of my pre-Vatican ll aunts had had their way!
Now I am in NO way saying that ALL pre-Vatican ll Catholics are this way, just relating to how MY aunts were, Everything I did or thought was a sin according to them! And they were always at the ready to convert my heathen soul! I was always being doused in holy water and everytime they saw us eat meat on ANY Friday, Lent or not, they would practically prostrate themselves at our feet begging us to “REPENT”!!
I grew up scared to death of the Catholic church and when I would hear stories about Judgement Day and the second coming, well I would just about faint at the thought of all the fire and brimstone hailing down around my 10-year old head! (I used to have nightmares that Jesus would have firey red eyes and could shoot lightening bolts out of his hands! )
But then guess what? I’d go to my church and wouldn’t you know it, Mrs. “X” would be sitting there on her HIGH HORSE, pointing her perfectly manicured finger at each person as they walked through the doors of the church. Or I would hear stories about how a visiting Pastor from another Prebyterian Church smiled out of one side of his mouth while frowning out the other! Then in college, I remember going to a Baptist dinner dance with a friend and oh Lord! According to some of them, those of us NOT Baptist were going to Hell with me leading the way of course! (again, I do not mean to generalize!)
I guess my point here is that there are always those who step out of their glass houses armed to the teeth with big stones ever ready to hit the first person who even looks as though they’re going to do or say something they deem fit to for God’s judgement!
It’s been my experience in my 42 years here that in ALL religions you will find those that just feel the need to remind you of your weaknesses and faults while they knowingly overlook their own. It has also been my experience that as many judgemental stone throwers there are, there are just as many kind, compassionate and wise people ready to guide, teach and help to educate you on your dance with the Man upstairs!
Don’t you find this true in the workplace and in your social, school or private life as well?
I hope you keep your mind and your spirit open to the many beautiful things the Catholic Church has to offer. I guess the one thing the negative thinkers have going for them is the lesson in compassion it gives me to try to follow Jesus’ example better. Good luck and God Bless!
MMagd