A "Calvinistic" Question involving Grace

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DENNYINMI

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Recently due to questions and answers on “another” forum, a few things have taken me either by surprise or have left me somewhat “questioning” the Catholic view.

The Catholic Church does teach that Grace is a free unmerited gift of God to one that is predestined to Grace…but not all are necessarily predestined to glory…🤷

Why would one be predestined to grace…and not glory?

Are we predestined??? I don’t understand “predestination”…I think Calvins’ theology is that we are (predestined for salvation) from before all time…hence their views on eternal security and the once saved always saved doctrine…but what is the Catholic viewpoint on predestination?

Obviously, God already knows who is “saved”…so in the same token has He predestined some to glory, and some not? How could the damned then be held accountable to their actions?

Does anyone understand this???

What is predestination, and what do Catholics believe??
 
Rule #1 Stay off of non-Catholic forums. Make them come here.
Rule #2 Know your faith so as to avoid being tempted to doubt it.
Catechisms are about $8. Great deal. Or, here is a link to an on-line catechism: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Catholicism for Dummies should be read by all who claim Christ.

Hint: At the consecration of the cup, Father says “It will be shed for you, and for many…”
Double hint: It does not say “all”
Triple hint: 1 Timothy 2:4
 
my understanding is that calvin believed God picked some to save and some to damn, known as double predestination…luther believed that God wills all to be saved and one is damned because he refused God’s gift of grace, not because God predetermined that he would be damned…i am interested in hearing a catholic understanding myself…
 
chico_elliott said:
my understanding is that calvin believed God picked some to save and some to damn, known as double predestination…luther believed that God wills all to be saved and one is damned because he refused God’s gift of grace, not because God predetermined that he would be damned…i am interested in hearing a catholic understanding myself…
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Since Luther was an Augustinian monk, his thoughts were in line with the Church in this regard. We must cooperate with God’s grace.
 
From my understanding Calvinism teaches that one cannot resist prevenient grace-the grace that disposes one to believe and be saved without regard to their will or actions. Catholicism teaches that man’s will can never be taken out of the equation and that God predestines none to hell.

**1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621
**
 
Predestination, in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God.

John Calvin interpreted biblical predestination to mean that God willed eternal damnation for some people and salvation for others.

[1] Explanations of predestination often seek to address the so-called “paradox of free will,” whereby God’s omniscience seems incompatible with human free will.
 
DENNYINMI said:
Recently due to questions and answers on “another” forum, a few things have taken me either by surprise or have left me somewhat “questioning” the Catholic view.

The Catholic Church does teach that Grace is a free unmerited gift of God to one that is predestined to Grace…but not all are necessarily predestined to glory…🤷

Why would one be predestined to grace…and not glory?

Are we predestined??? I don’t understand “predestination”…I think Calvins’ theology is that we are (predestined for salvation) from before all time…hence their views on eternal security and the once saved always saved doctrine…but what is the Catholic viewpoint on predestination?

Obviously, God already knows who is “saved”…so in the same token has He predestined some to glory, and some not? How could the damned then be held accountable to their actions?

Does anyone understand this???

What is predestination, and what do Catholics believe??
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Before one could begin a conversation with you regarding this subject…

One would have to come to terms with the definition each sides would have of certain
words…

What is your definition of the Grace of God?

Then we can go from there… first one has to have an idea of what the Grace of God is
and then see if it will fit into someone’s further conclusions of same such words.

I have found in many conversations with Persons of various christian churches that there is quite a difference in how some understand the Grace of God, or the Will of God…

I have found that after hours of frustrations in attempting to understand where someone else is coming from… it was caused by this same fact that we were talking about the same subject but was thinking it in our minds and our definitions were not the same.
 
DENNYINMI said:
Recently due to questions and answers on “another” forum, a few things have taken me either by surprise or have left me somewhat “questioning” the Catholic view.

The Catholic Church does teach that Grace is a free unmerited gift of God to one that is predestined to Grace…but not all are necessarily predestined to glory…🤷

Why would one be predestined to grace…and not glory?

Are we predestined??? I don’t understand “predestination”…I think Calvins’ theology is that we are (predestined for salvation) from before all time…hence their views on eternal security and the once saved always saved doctrine…but what is the Catholic viewpoint on predestination?

Obviously, God already knows who is “saved”…so in the same token has He predestined some to glory, and some not? How could the damned then be held accountable to their actions?

Does anyone understand this???

What is predestination, and what do Catholics believe??
Click to expand...
calledtocommunion.com/2011/11/lawrence-feingold-on-predestinatio/

calledtocommunion.com/2010/12/signs-of-predestination-a-catholic-discusses-election/

calledtocommunion.com/2011/04/the-trouble-with-calvinism-catholic-answers-live-interview-with-david-anders/
 
po18guy said:
Rule #1 Stay off of non-Catholic forums. Make them come here.
Rule #2 Know your faith so as to avoid being tempted to doubt it.
Catechisms are about $8. Great deal. Or, here is a link to an on-line catechism: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Catholicism for Dummies should be read by all who claim Christ.

Hint: At the consecration of the cup, Father says “It will be shed for you, and for many…”
Double hint: It does not say “all”
Triple hint: 1 Timothy 2:4
Click to expand...
yes, for quite some time I have considered the book “Catholicism for Dummies”…bout time I purchase it.

keep in mind…Forum Master…there are times when one reads something…and it remains unclear…Thank God for the Beauty of the Church…for human explanation…faith still does come at first…by hearing!

your post was rather arrogant…hint…hint…it reminds me of those that believe that Scripture interprets Scripture…hence…the hundreds of interpretations that have befallen our Protestant Brethren in their attempts at “interpretation”…falling short if not in line with Holy Mother Church.

if the topic came easily to me, i wouldn’t have posted a request asking for assist in its interpretation.

will this require a sanction now…do to pointing out the folly of your response inasmuch as your a “Forum Master”?

i guess i’ll have to wait and see.

God Bless you.
 
Thank you all for the responses and the links. I’ll be busy today…😉
 
I was told in a discussion with a Calvinist that the Jews were punished with Hitler and the Holocaust because they crucified the Messiah. Why were they punished for something they had no choice but to follow what they were predestined to do?
 
I was in a discussion with a Calvinist friend last year when he laid the ‘pre-destination’ thing on me…I replied “Oh ****!! there goes our free will!!” I think he is still working on a reply…:cool:
 
God gives each of us the freedom to choose our eternal destiny. God knows the eternal destiny of all before (pre) we freely choose it.
 
grandfather said:
God gives each of us the freedom to choose our eternal destiny. God knows the eternal destiny of all before (pre) we freely choose it.
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There really is no mystery in this. It is very simple. The mystery is why one person chooses God’s love and mercy and another rejects it.
 
CCC #600 affirms that God gives everyone free will to respond to His Grace.

“The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of His Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.” (JPII, Redemptoris Missio, 1990, 10)

Thus, just as without Christ there is no salvation, so without the Church there is no salvation. *Catechism of the Catholic Church *# 846 - # 848]. The Catholic Church, regardless of whether or not a person knows of its divine origin and founding, is the body through which ALL salvation comes to anyone whom God deems worthy to receive it.

We should strive to offer the fullness of truth to all who seek it so that they may grow in grace and be able to offer it to others also.
 
Thank you for furthering the discussion with your insights and truths!

Much appreciated! It just seemed “odd” for lack of better word/understanding that anyone would be “damned” by God…hence, MY misunderstanding. Free-will is never taken out of the equation, and with that understanding…I think I understand…🙂

Thank you!!!
 
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