A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[SHW]

… Kind of like the questioner knows he’s saved and thinks you’re not.

I’ve been told more than once that because I am Catholic, I am not saved.

And, if I would just renounce my Catholic faith and then accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, then I would have eternal security just like they do. Also, that no matter what I do after I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, Jesus’ blood will always cover all my sins. Heb 10:26-27

I know that they desire my salvation and so that is what makes their “assumptions” tolerable.

How people can believe that Jesus humbled Himself and came to earth in order to suffer and die for them so that they could then continue to sin without personal consequences is mind boggling to me.

One third of the angels sinned one sin and were given eternal damnation as their consequence. No second chances for them. Rev 12:3-4

Adam sinned one sin when he ate one piece of fruit and thereby lost the right to enter into eternal life and he also brought this loss of eternal life and sickness and death to all of his descendants. Gen 3:2-25 Only Jesus could restore this spiritual fellowship with God which Adam lost. Spiritual reconciliation with God through Baptism (applies the merits of the cross to our souls and forgives Original Sin 1 Cor 6:11, Acts 22:16) gives us hope that we might inherit eternal life. Titus 3:7

Almost all of the Israelites helped to make a golden calf and then worshiped it and thereby brought a myriad of laws and regulations and statutes (Law of Moses Neh 9:12-14, Eph 2:15) upon themselves and none of that generation (except Caleb and Joshua) were permitted to enter into the Promised Land because of their idolatry and their disobedience. Num 14:29-31 However, the descendants of these Israelites were also bound by the restrictive Law of Moses/Old Covenant.

Moses was not allowed to enter into the Promised Land either because he disbelieved God when God told him to hold the rod and “speak to the rock” in order to get water out of it. Instead of believing and obeying God, Moses used his rod and struck the rod twice. Because Moses used his rod and struck the rock twice instead of speaking to it as God commanded, he was not allowed to enter into the Promised Land. Num 20:4-11, Num 27:12-19 His one sin of unbelief/disobedience caused him to forfeit the Promised Land.

We will actually be judged on even every idle word that we speak:

Mat 12:35-37
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart[a] brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
**
This is why we are supposed to “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.”** Phil 2:12-13 It is because so few persons are actually saved Lk 13:22-28. Instead, they prove their unbelief in God by their disobedience to Him. They become followers of Satan instead of God. 1 Pet 5:8-9, Jas 4:7, Rom 6:15-18

Heb 3:18-19
And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Jesus is the Author of salvation for only those who obey Him (His gospel of commands 1 Cor 14:37).

Those who do not obey Him up until the instant of death will not inherit eternal life:

1 Pet 4:17
For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

2 Thes 1:8
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

TRUTH: Only those persons who obey God actually love Him 1 Jn 14:2, 1 Jn 2:4 and only these will be given the right to inherit eternal life. Rev 22:14, Jas 1:12

 

[SHW]

That is an awesome summary! Do you mind if I paste it into my notebook?

Thank you. I learned most of what I know about Scripture over a period of many years by studying great Catholic thinkers and writers (leaders of the Church), both ancient and contemporary. My own personal contribution is minuscule. Use any of my posts in any way you desire.

 

[SHW]

In the context of Once Saved Always Saved, we are all saved by Christ’s one perfect sacrifice etc.

Catholics believe Jesus died for EVERYBODY, even unbelievers such as babies. So in a sense, all are “Once Saved” why add the “Always Saved?”

The term redemption is usually applied to a group and the term salvation/justification is usually applied to an individual:

Jesus redeemed all mankind once and for all by His death on the cross and His death reconciled all mankind to God. Adam’s sin made all of us spiritual enemies of God and Jesus’ sacrifice makes it possible for each of us to become spiritually reconciled to God and also makes it possible for each of us to inherit eternal life after death.

Jesus saves the individual (he becomes His disciple) when the individual is Sacramentally Baptized (or else he accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior/heart change). This non-Sacramental type of reconciliation Catholics call “Baptism of Desire.” It is not a sacrament, but it does give the person sanctifying grace. When and if the individual comes to a fuller knowledge of the truth, then they must still be baptized Sacramentally as God commands Acts 10:46-48.

We will inherit eternal life after we die, if after we are personally reconciled to God, we continue to obey His commandments and fulfill His Father’s Will until we die. If we do not, then we will not be approved to wear the crown of eternal life.

 

[elvisman]

I am not the one with spiritual pride! I also will not argue with you either. It isn’t worth it. You have showed me nothing but rudeness, and uncharity. So go find someone else you can goad.God Bless you in your journey

No - you won’t have a discussion with me because I have rightly admonished you about false teachings and misrepresenting the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15).

You are angry with me - and other - for exposing you.

 

[Rocket_Man]

1 John 5:11-17 (RSV)
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life.
13 I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
14 And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.
15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him.
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John is speaking of “answered” prayer “expectations” regarding two types of sinners. He is reassuring them that their prayers will be answered if the person is not sinning mortal sins (if he sins venial sins only, then he will still inherit eternal life when he dies). It is good to pray for him because praying for him will help him to not commit mortal sins. If he does not commit mortal sins, then he will be given eternal life so “God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal.” Philippians 4:6-7, 1 Timothy 2:1

However, John also tells them that if the person is sinning mortal sins (perhaps he is speaking particularly of apostasy and/or final impenitence), then their prayers might not be answered because he probably will not repent before death and if so, then he will not inherit eternal life. Their prayers will have been prayed in vain. 1 Thessalonians 3:5, Galatians 4:11

Let’s keep going and throw verse 18 in the mix:

18 We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Can anyone in the preexisting state “born of God” commit (mortal) sin?

Does James 5:4 help you understand 1 John 5:11-17 ?

4 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Jesus will not “know” anyone on Judgment Day who was in the state of mortal sin when he died.

Luke 13:24-28
He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
"But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

26"Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27"But he will reply, 'I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
This was spoken to those in the crowd who thought they were “sons of Abraham” but would not enter in because they had no relationship with the owner of the house. It would be similar to many who were baptized as an infant, confirmed in the church, participate in the Eucharist, etc. but were never circumcised inwardly.
SHW;6225206:

Matthew 7:20-24
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you

. Away from me, you evildoers!’ 24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

This is a warning to be aware of false prophets, verse 15: “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” False prophets; “prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles”.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I’ve been told more than once that because I am Catholic, I am not saved.

And, if I would just renounce my Catholic faith and then accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, then I would have eternal security just like they do. Also, that no matter what I do after I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, Jesus’ blood will always cover all my sins. Heb 10:26-27

I know that they desire my salvation and so that is what makes their “assumptions” tolerable.

How people can believe that Jesus humbled Himself and came to earth in order to suffer and die for them so that they could then continue to sin without personal consequences is mind boggling to me.

You are right! Continuing to live sin is absolutely contrary to Christ’s work on the cross, the ministry of the Holy Spirit, and the seed deposited in the regenerated believer. No one here has argued that there aren’t consequences for sin. I just don’t share your thoughts of Christians weaving back and forth from being “Sons of God” to being “Sons of Disobedience” by our sin.

It’s fairly clear that the “Sons of Disobedience” are unbelievers who are under the continue sway of the wicked one. Which I was once, but not any longer.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You are right! Continuing to live sin is absolutely contrary to Christ’s work on the cross, the ministry of the Holy Spirit, and the seed deposited in the regenerated believer. No one here has argued that there aren’t consequences for sin. I just don’t share your thoughts of weaving back and forth from being “Sons of God” to being “Sons of Disobedience” by our sins.

So, you’re perfect now and have been since you believed in Christ as our saviour through His sacrifice? You haven’t sinned at all?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This was spoken to those in the crowd who thought they were “sons of Abraham” but would not enter in because they had no relationship with the owner of the house. It would be similar to many who were baptized as an infant, confirmed in the church, participate in the Eucharist, etc. but were never circumcised inwardly.

So you’re saying we have to read things in context of who was being spoken too? Why couldn’t the same be applied to things that were only spoken to the Apostles only?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PJM,

This was an excellent post. Thanks for taking the time and doing such a good job!

God bless

***1. Dosen’t a valid contract require “consideration” from both parties? God who is perfect, cannot be made, or become “more perfect.” Threrefore no consideraton and no contract can exist.

1. Salvation is not even a covenant AGREEMENT, although it is based on a promise of Redemption;*** meaning ONLY a reestablishment of a relationship with God, that had been torn from the Sin of Adam and Eve. The POSSIBILITY on certain coniditions being fulfilled, might be considered a contract of specific-preformance by both parties to the contract, that has as its end; Salvation?

This redemption pertains specifically, precisely and exclusively to access to heaven. This access had been denied even those worthy of Salvation, until the “NEW ADAM” by a single self-sacrificing act, found acceptable by God as it was FROM GOD and FOR GOD,
reopened the gates, making possible once again; access to heaven.

While these may or MAY-NOT indicate acceptance of the Offer; as accecptance MUST be personal, specifcally intended, and supported by future actions. It does for the sake of conversation, lead at least to the possibility of acceptance.

**John 10:27-29 **" **[27] My sheep **hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

**John 21:17 ** ***"He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” **Peter *****was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.”

Indeed salvation is from God alone. BUT as this verse and others [Mt. 16:15-19, 18:18 and John 3:6 and John 20:19-23] make clear it is chaneled through the “SEE of Peter,” the Catholic Church!

This passage is the first of many to explain the CONDITIONS to be met, in order to atain Salvation.

**John.15: 10 **“If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.”

**Matt.16: 24 **"Then Jesus told his disciples, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.”

John.3: 5 "Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

1 John 5:16 “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.” [Unconfessed Mortal Sin will condem one to hell for eterinity.]

** John 20:21-23**"[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

These are a few of the verses that spell out the specific preformance measurs that must be fuliflled in route to POSSIBLE salvation.

Love andprayers,

Pat

 

[Rocket_Man]

So, you’re perfect now and have been since you believed in Christ as our saviour through His sacrifice? You haven’t sinned at all?

Yes, because I have been clothed in the righteousness of Christ, I am perfect. Yes, I still sin. And the more I follow Him and know His righteousness, the more He shows me just how deeply selfish I really am and so ever far away from ever able to obtain His perfect righteousness. So there I fall at His feet again in repentance. Solely depended on Him and His work on the cross for eternal life.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Christine,

It’s semantics. Substitute Jesus death and Resurrection for “always saved.” For Rev Kevin, “always saved” doesn’t mean going to Heaven.

By this do you mean (for example) “Once baptized, always baptized”?

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Tweetymom,

Thank you so much for you kind words and the show of charity.

I would say that AuGusTeen has a lot of insight - and a very clear writing style. The words were kind and I think charity was shown - and, I would recommend you re-read AuGusTeen’s post with an eye toward how you can benefit from these insights.

God bless

 

[Rocket_Man]

So you’re saying we have to read things in context of who was being spoken too? Why couldn’t the same be applied to things that were only spoken to the Apostles only?

Sounds good to me! Do you think you could convince others?

 

[adrift]

Yes, because I have been clothed in the righteousness of Christ, I am perfect. Yes,** I still sin**.

These two sentences are contradictory. Either your perfect which would mean you were without sin or you sin and are imperfect.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, SHW,

For all of these many years, I have equated salvation with going to heaven. So, that, the OSAS doctrine totally negates free will and the fact that God will not be made a fool of! But, now I see there may be another meaning.

" Always saved" to most people means that they can never lose their salvation even if they commit adultery or murder, etc. after they become saved in the first place. I was clarifying this fact.

So, could it mean that we are all ‘saved’ through Christ’s Life, Death and Resurrection - but to bring this ‘being saved’ into effect we must actually follow Christ and obey His Commands. In other words, we are saved - BUT - if we choose to sin then when we are justly condemned to Hell we will have the mark of that Salvation on our souls - to our eternal shame. Is this a legitimate interpretation fo OSAS?

Rev Kevin’s posts are confusing to some people because he “borrows” established “phraseology” and then uses it to mean something else.

Oh, that’s the reason … I just thought I was getting sleepy…

God bless

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, because I have been clothed in the righteousness of Christ, I am perfect. Yes, I still sin.

I take it you are a promoter of “forensic justification” which has boatloads of sinners going to Heaven “in disguise,” pretending to be Saints. I always think how awful it must be for all those sinners, worrying that they might slip and commit a sin in Heaven, and thus get caught, and then be restored to their rightful place in Hell.

Fortunately, the only people who actually go to Heaven are those who have actually overcome their sinful nature by means of the grace of Jesus Christ in the Sacraments of His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and who will thus never be tempted to sin when they get to Heaven.

 

[adrift]

**No - you won’t have a discussion with me because I have rightly **admonished you about false teachings and misrepresenting the Church, which is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15).

You are angry with me - and other - for exposing you.

Tweety has as she says "Went to 8 years to BSF. " She can not admit that these were wasted years and that what she learned was false. That is indeed a spiritual pride. All know this and we should all pray for her.

 

[jmcrae]

Tweety has as she says "Went to 8 years to BSF. " She can not admit that these were wasted years and that what she learned was false. That is indeed a spiritual pride. All know this and we should all pray for her.

I didn’t know what BSF was, so I looked it up.

You know what the really sad thing is? She could have done the same thing in four years, for free, with the Little Rock Scripture Study at any local Catholic parish - and gotten the correct teaching (at least, mostly). :doh2:

 

[adrift]

I didn’t know what BSF was, so I looked it up.

You know what the really sad thing is? She could have done the same thing in four years, for free, with the Little Rock Scripture Study at any local Catholic parish - and gotten the correct teaching (at least, mostly). :doh2:

Sadder still is that she wouldn’t even consider doing so.:bighanky: