A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[kayakdadj]

as far as a contract goes we cant have a contract anything we can bring to a contract would never come near the value of eternal salvation thereby invalidating any contract through undue enrichment to a party us

 

[jlhargus]

The ECF’s realized and taught that the entirety of scripture was summed up in Charity. Every verse in Bible had is basis in Charity … so they said. This was confirmed by Pope Gregory the Great in 600 AD.

We are to persevere, to teach/live lives of charity, and so honor/abide in Christ. Those who turn away from this commandment, taught to the disciples by Christ, are those who know the truth but don’t live the faith. As James taught, faith w/o works is dead. Those saved, the election of God, will ultimately persevere … they cannot do otherwise and call themselves disciples.

JL: Yes faith without works is most certainly DEAD, no argument there. So if a OSAS person commits adultery or burns down their neighbor’s house, because he doesn’t like him, have they persevered in LOVE teaching/living lives of charity, and SO honor/abide in Christ?

You also failed to address the following contradiction in you last post:

Without repentance it is impossible to please God and we won’t persevere for very long. W/O perseverance to the last day, OSAS is not operative.

JL: So if we don’t repent of sins commited after being saved and persever to the last day, one will not be saved, as OSAS is not operative.

[Gal5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 CHRIST IS BECOME OF NO EFFECT UNTO YOU, whosoever of you are justified by the law; YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE.]

Paul tells us, Jewish Christians, who trun back to the law and go about falsely teaching, Christians must be circumcised in order to be justified, are FALLEN FROM GRACE. In order to be, “fallen from grace”, they must first HAVE been in GRACE, otherwise how could one fall from grace if they didn’t have it in the first place?

Jms 5:19 My brethren IF any ONE among you WANDERS FROM THE TRUTH and some one BRINGS him BACK 20 let him know that whoever BRINGS BACK A SINNER from the error of his way WILL SAVE HIS SOUL from death and will cover a multitude of sins If one is OSAS how could his soul be saved from death by one who BRINGS HIM BACK. If he is BROUGHT BACK he must have first left.

 

[jlhargus]

Paul is speaking of Apostates. Theoretical Christians, ones seeking their own glory. They have been instructed in the gospel … yet never became God’s election. They were baptized by water, but not by Christ’s H.S. They have ‘tasted’, received the Eucharist … but, they received wrongly … as did Judas. They don’t really possess the indwelling H.S. … they don’t abide/persevere IN CHRIST.

Where does the text, in Hb6:4-6, say apostates are theoretical Christians? Where does the text say they seek their own glory? Where does the text say they never became God’s election? Where does the text say they didn’t receive the H. S. when baptized? Where does the text say they received the Eucharist wrongly? Where does the text say they don’t really posses the indwelling H.S.? Where does the text say they don’t abide/persevere IN CHRIST? Those are only your words, which contradict the test. I bet your fellow Protestants would disagree with you on the Eucharist?

JL: [Hb6:4 For it is impossible for THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND have TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]

How can one, who was never FIRST RENEWED, be RENEWED AGAIN? The text explicitly teaches, they are ENLIGHTENED, tasted the heavenly gift, tasted eternal life in the Eucharist. If they were not saved they would NOT have TASTED the heavenly gift of eternal life in the Eucharist, but tasted damnation, NOT discerning the body of Christ. They have tasted the GOOD WORD OF GOD, if they were unbelievers they would have tasted foolishness, 1Cor1:18 the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. They have tasted the powers of the world to come. What IS the POWER of the world to come? GOD. Unless of course unsaved then they would have tasted the wrath of God. They are MADE PARTAKERS of the HOLY SPIRIT. How can a non-believer partake of the Holy Spirit?

A theoretical Christian would remain in the SAME unsaved state in which they have always been. Their state would never have changed, from unsaved to saved, therefore they COULD NEVER fall away, or apostatize, from the faith they NEVER POSSESSED. The unsaved have fallen from NOTHING.

 

[jmcrae]

actually, not all contracts have to be written to be enforceable

They do have to be generally known, though - if there is no evidence that the contract ever existed, then it can’t be enforced, but if there were witnesses present to an oral contract (like a promise to pay a gambling debt, for example) then it could be enforceable.

 

[brb3]

JL: [Hb6:4 For it is impossible for THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND have TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]

.

You ask alot of questions here. Too many to answer in one respondo.

I’ve given my interpretation of Heb. 6:4 earlier. Now, its time for you to interpret … and tell us if the THOSE/THEY/THEM being discussed above are prodigals, apostates, or neither.

 

[brb3]

JL: So if we don’t repent of sins commited after being saved and persever to the last day, one will not be saved, as OSAS is not operative.

QUOTE]

Correct. Those who don’t persevere til the end … were only ‘token’ Christians, not truly saved. We must have a GOOD ending, to support our prior claims. Since none of us know ANOTHERS ending … scripture teaches us not to judge their salvation. How do we know if they are a Prodigal who will yet repent and be restored to God’s fold ? … unless they respond to our efforts to bring them back to the Church.

 

[fbl9]

jlhargus;6425856:

JL: So if we don’t repent of sins commited after being saved and persever to the last day, one will not be saved, as OSAS is not operative.

QUOTE]

Correct. Those who don’t persevere til the end … were only ‘token’ Christians, not truly saved. We must have a GOOD ending, to support our prior claims. Since none of us know ANOTHERS ending … scripture teaches us not to judge their salvation. How do we know if they are a Prodigal who will yet repent and be restored to God’s fold ? … unless they respond to our efforts to bring them back to the Church.

Why do we have anything to do with their repentance? If they are “saved” then God will bring them back all by Himself.Actually it still doesn’t matter if they repent cause their salvation is secure, they can’t lose it no matter what. If one needs to make the choice to repent or convinced by a mere a man, then osas is not a truth but a wild fantasy,

 

[brb3]

brb3;6426370:

God will bring them back all by Himself.Actually it still doesn’t matter if they repent cause their salvation is secure, they can’t lose it no matter what. If one needs to make the choice to repent or convinced by a mere a man, then osas is not a truth

QUOTE]

This is a mis-characterization of Salvation Assurance. Prodigals know they are on shaky ground. They exercise their Free Will to return to the fold, as drawn by Spirit of Christ.

It is their convinction that Christ is their assurance that causes them to repent and be restored by the Father to full son-ship status.

 

[jlhargus]

jlhargus;6425856:

JL: So if we don’t repent of sins commited after being saved and persever to the last day, one will not be saved, as OSAS is not operative.

Correct. Those who don’t persevere til the end … were only ‘token’ Christians, not truly saved. We must have a GOOD ending, to support our prior claims. Since none of us know ANOTHERS ending … scripture teaches us not to judge their salvation. How do we know if they are a Prodigal who will yet repent and be restored to God’s fold ? … unless they respond to our efforts to bring them back to the Church.

JL: How do you know they were only ‘token’ Christians, where does the text say or even imply they are only ‘token’ Christians?

 

[jlhargus]

JL: How can you be on SHAKY GROUND if you can’t LOSE?

 

[jlhargus]

Originally Posted by fbl9

At the time of his minstry this man was assured salvation,You present no evidence at the time of this man’s ministry his faith was a theroy.

Don’t know the man. But, it’s the Apostates that reject their theoretical ideas about Christ, and can become atheists – able to deny what they never had. Prodigals had saving faith, became lost, and later found.

JL: So you admit they HAD saving faith and were later LOST. Isn’t that a contradiction of OSAS. If they lost it then they would not have been OSAS

By the way if Apostates have only theoretical IDEAS about Christ, how can they DENY what they NEVER HAD? !!!

His faith was theoretical … not literal. New Creations are given a ‘new name’ … are adopted into God’s fold.

JL: If HE believed himsef SAVED, with the same conviction as you believe yourself to be saved, how can you possibly know his faith was theoretical and not literal? You admit you don’t know the man. How do you THEN know your faith is not theorectical?

You certainly must be new to your Protestant faith, as you contradict youself time after time. You leave OSAS as a doctrine of no one can know if they are SAVED. By the way what is your New Creation ‘new name’. Would it be OSAS Protestant?

It would be impossible for them to later deny their Father. They may go AWOL on occasion … but they will always return to the Father, and never denounce Him.

JL: What are they AWOL from, when one dies AWOL are they saved? Why would it be IMPOSSIBLE to later deny their Father, do they lose their free will? You make a lot of statements, but give no evidence. My theory, a statement made without evidence is evidence the statement is false.

 

[Xavierlives]

Some people do. In my case, I just make the Sign of the Cross and then tell my sins.

The priest has been given authority on earth to forgive sins by Christ in whose Person he stands.

hmm… And I am told to forgive those who sin against me and Christ has been given the authority to forgive all sin in heaven. Interesting.

 

[jmcrae]

hmm… And I am told to forgive those who sin against me and Christ has been given the authority to forgive all sin in heaven. Interesting.

Right.

In fact, we must forgive all who have sinned against us, if we are to expect God’s forgiveness at the Judgement Day, as Jesus says in Matthew 6:15.

In Matthew 9, we see how Jesus acquired authority in His humanity (that is, as a man, and not as God), to forgive the sins of strangers, by in HIs own person as Man, forgiving the sins of the paralytic, so that in Matthew 16, he could then pass that same human authority on to His disciples.

 

[Xavierlives]

Right.

In fact, we must forgive all who have sinned against us, if we are to expect God’s forgiveness at the Judgement Day, as Jesus says in Matthew 6:15.

In Matthew 9, we see how Jesus acquired authority in His humanity (that is, as a man, and not as God), to forgive the sins of strangers, by in HIs own person as Man, forgiving the sins of the paralytic, so that in Matthew 16, he could then pass that same human authority on to His disciples.

It is nice to be in agreement.

 

[brb3]

So you admit they HAD saving faith and were later LOST. Isn’t that a contradiction of OSAS. If they lost it then they would not have been OSAS

By the way if Apostates have only theoretical IDEAS about Christ, how can they DENY what they NEVER HAD? !!!

The Prodigal was a true son, but he made bad choices. He never denied the Father, but he disrespected the Father’s will for him. Nevertheless, the Father still considered him a true, but disobedient son. The Father prayed for his soul, and the son recovered, developed contrition, and desired ‘reconciliation’. The ‘high priest’ Christ heard his confession and welcomed him back into the Church.

It happens all the time JH. Can’t you see yourself having once been disobedient and in need of major confession? Do you see yourself as saved, unsaved, saved, unsaved, etc, etc … between every confession ? As long as the Father knows you WILL return for another contrite confession … will he disown you ? The Prodigals situation is no different than many Catholics we both know.

ONLY God knows when we have determined of own free will we will not return for confession. Only God knows who is beyond hope. Again, only those who persevere til their last day … are the election of God. True Prodigals come to their senses and are restored to their Father. Those who don’t … are not among the elect.

 

[1beleevr]

#1000 the same as last time yoiu brought your drivel about Christ not being on the cross blab,blab…

Well, the truth is what the truth is: Jesus is not on the Cross, and it is sacreligious to keep Him on it!

 

[1beleevr]

Who do you think Catholics seek frogiveness from in the confessional? The very same Father.Can you grasp the father in the confessional is the face of Christ for the confessee?

But, you see, the face of the priest is not the face of Christ!

 

[brb3]

JL: If HE believed himsef SAVED, with the same conviction as you believe yourself to be saved, how can you possibly know his faith was theoretical and not literal? How do you THEN know your faith is not theorectical?

.

Again, we can’t always tell about another. Look how Judas fooled the 11. But, did he fool Christ ? God alone knows. That is why we can’t be sure. God has on occasions saved people on their final day … the Good Thief for example.

Why does this subject bother you so ? Just be sure about your own salvation. That’s all God expects you to know. And, individuals can be 100% sure about their own status. Christ would not leave us w/o salvation assurance. He told the Apostles how they could be sure. And, they tell us in scriptures.

 

[1beleevr]

#1000 the same as last time yoiu brought your drivel about Christ not being on the cross blab,blab…

I think perhaps you are deluded here! Post#1000 was written by someone called fbl9!

 

[1beleevr]

Again, we can’t always tell about another. Look how Judas fooled the 11. But, did he fool Christ ? God alone knows. That is why we can’t be sure. God has on occasions saved people on their final day … the Good Thief for example.

Why does this subject bother you so ? Just be sure about your own salvation. That’s all God expects you to know. And, individuals can be 100% sure about their own status. Christ would not leave us w/o salvation assurance. He told the Apostles how they could be sure. And, they tell us in scriptures.

Personally, I don’t think the other 11 disciples ever had a clue about Judas! But he didn’t fool Jesus; Jesus knew all along what was going on, no surprises. That is why Satan was allowed to enter him, so he could betray Christ per the scriptures!