You criticize me for giving an opinion about your preacher friend’s salvation [after you asked us] … and here you again ask me to speculate on 1BELEIVER.
I cited Zechariah Chp. 11 & 12. That’s in the Catholic & Protestant bibles.
Right. An apostate is someone who has been a practicing Christian, but isn’t any more. (Someone who has never been a Christian is called a pagan, or an unbeliever. You cannot become apostate from something you have never believed in.)
You cannot receive Enlightenment without first receiving Election. It is simply not possible. One receives Catechism (head knowledge), Election (heart-awakening), and then Enlightenment (heart-knowledge), in that order. If they had been enlightened, therefore, it means that they had received Catechesis (the teachings) and the Election (the awakening) before that.
We both agree … Judas was an apostate, a turncoat. Christ had tutored him, he had been baptized, he knew the person Christ. But, did he love the God-man Christ ?
At some point he must have, or else why would he have given up everything to follow Him?
All these things did happen - but Judas did not become a follower of Christ for personal gain, since there was nothing to gain, at the time. Each and every one of the 12 gave up their family ties, their jobs, their homes, and every other material consideration, to wander with Jesus throughout the whole country of Israel. So, there must have been a spark of faith, at the beginning. Who can say how it got quenched, or even when (since it seems clear that during the last several months of Christ’s ministry, Judas was already out of the program, and probably only stuck around because he had no place else to go).
Your profile says “Catholic.” I assume you know the difference between mortal sin (sins committed freely and on purpose), venial sins (sins committed by accident), and faults (habits which, though not actually sins, don’t bring the person closer to Jesus).
If you commit a mortal sin (and hopefully you don’t do that very often) you separate yourself from God, and you would go to Hell if you died having not repented of it yet. We go to Confession to restore our relationship with God after committing a mortal sin.
I caught … and defused it. Lets move on to more productive dialogue
Let’s analyze what you’ve said here.
Please show in scripture where it says this. I searched and cannot find any such reference.
I’ll help you out with this one. Judas was in fact given to Jesus by the Father. We know this to be true by way of the following:
Where does scripture tell us this? He could have put down deep roots into Christ and still turned from Christ just as Peter did with his denial.
Where does scripture make such a statement and what is the evidence? It seems to me that this is quite contrary to the scriptures because scripture describes Judas in the following ways:
Where does scripture indicate such a thing? Why is it that such a thing should be assumed to be true? Judas spent three years being taught directly by our savior. Somehow I think he really knew Jesus quite well. A betrayer does not have to be ignorant; in fact, it makes more sense to be called a traitor if you do have knowledge of the one you betray.
Judas worshiped Jesus and declared his faith by stating that Jesus was truly the son of God. Judas was a believer but he “became” a betrayer.[Luke 6:16]
The author over and over uses the word “we” and continues to do so in the letter. While there are many things to quote in Hebrews, we can get to the heart of the matter by focusing on some things in Chapter five that clearly establish that the author is addressing believing Christians.
Now please notice that the author tells those receiving his letter that by now they ought to be teachers, but that they are immature. He does not say that they are non-believers. Instead, the criticism of immaturity is explained by the fact that they are “unskilled in the word of righteousness.” They still need practice to distinguish good from evil, even though they should already be passed that. It is then that chapter six begins and the author warns these same people of apostasy. Right after the warning the author returns to exhorting them saying,
Those addressed in the book of Hebrews are addressed as true believing converts. Yet they receive serious warnings. They receive these warnings because there is the possibility of losing salvation. Likewise, the author again warns these same Jewish converts to Christianity in chapter 10:19-30 saying:
Please notice all of the words that I gave “bold” and “underline” emphasis. We have confidence/assurance, but we are also warned. And once again the inspired author uses the collective “we”. The author, himself, is included and surely no one would contend that the inspired author is not a “true believer.” The warning at the end is significant. A believer that turns away will actually receive a greater punishment for spurning the son of God and profaning the blood of the covenant by which he was “sanctified.” The Lord will judge “his people”.
–Judas is referred to as “elect.”(Gk,eklegomai - Strong’s word # 1586 – Lk 6:13, Jn 6:70; cf. Mk 13:20, Jn 13:18, 15:16,19, Acts 1:2), and then falls away and is damned.
–John 17:12 says “While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of **them **is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.” Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father.
Where does scripture tell us this? He could have put down deep roots into Christ and still turned from Christ just as Peter did with his denial.
Where does scripture make such a statement and what is the evidence? It seems to me that this is quite contrary to the scriptures because scripture describes Judas in the following ways:
–Judas was one of those that believed at the marriage feast of Cana[Jn 2:11]. Judas is present when Peter makes his public confession of faith and Jesus is revealed as the son of God[Matt 16:15-18].
–Like the rest of the twelve, Judas has healed the sick and cast out demons while preaching that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Judas has done these things by the power of the Holy Spirit[Matt 6:8-13, Mark 3:14-19 and Mark 6:13].
–Judas was also present when Jesus gave the apostles as a group the “power to bind and loose” in Matthew 18:18. Judas believed and is one of the saved until he “betrayed” Jesus.
Where does scripture indicate such a thing? Why is it that such a thing should be assumed to be true? Judas spent three years being taught directly by our savior. Somehow I think he really knew Jesus quite well. A betrayer does not have to be ignorant; in fact, it makes more sense to be called a traitor if you do have knowledge of the one you betray.
Judas met all of the criteria under Protestant doctrine for salvation and OSAS. OSAS proponents universally argue salvation by faith alone. If that is the case, then OSAS is self contradictory in the case of Judas. Scripture explicitly tells us that Judas was a "believer."
We find this explicit statement in In Matthew 14 where we are told that Jesus tells the disciples[that is the twelve] to get into the boat and to cross to the other side of the sea. Jesus then walks on the water and Peter joins him and begins to sink beneath the waves as his faith falters. Jesus then helps Peter stay afloat and then they both get back into the boat. Once in the boat scripture tells us the following:
Judas worshiped Jesus and declared his faith by stating that Jesus was truly the son of God. Judas was a believer but he “became” a betrayer.[Luke 6:16]
Judas is never called a “false believer” a “believer without root” or any other such term. Judas “became” a betrayer and thus the son of perdition*.
You make a strong case here, as alwaysThis is definately the strongest argument to make against OSAS. And, I was convinced of this by you and others about a year ago.
However, I recently came across some OT prophesy around 6 weeks ago … that gave me some pause on this subject. Zechariah Chps 11 & 13 paint picture of Judas as a ‘worthless’ shepherd. Not a valued shepherd who suffered a brief lapse of faith.
Exegete for me Zechariah 11:7-17 & 13:7 … and show me where Judas is suggested as ever counted as a true sheep.
JL: My view of Hb6:4-6 is as follows and your view then follows after. if I were an exegete I would do so, since I am not, my view will have to suffice. Are you suggesting your view is exegetical?I caught … and defused it. Lets move on to more productive dialogue
I wonder if during the Christmas season if you see a Nativity scene with the baby Jesus in the manger does this repulse you.they must not know that Jesus grew up to be a man.or if you see a painting with Jesus surrounded by people on a hillside preaching to them that must make you sick,knowing Jesus is in Heaven sitting beside Our Father,and not here on earth. I sat at Mass tonite staring at the Crucifix above the alter and had tears in my eyes thinking of the depths of His love,and the lengths he would go to just for our salvation.and you have the gall to say you were repulsed at the sight of a Crucifix.I will pray for you tonite that the scales may be removed from your eyes…
The passages never really refer to Judas as a shepherd let alone a worthless shepherd. Instead there are three shepherds that are referred to and most commentaries explain these three as the chief priests, the scribes, and the pharisees. The only other shepherd that is directly mentioned is the good shepherd. Obviously, the good shepherd is Jesus. There is an allusion to Judas by way of the “thirty shekels of silver” but this reference is indirect. The direct connection of the reference is to those who** pay **the “thirty pieces” and to Jesus who is the object of the purchase. Those who pay the money are the three shepherds referred to in the passage. It is they that are said to have trafficked in the sheep and detested Jesus. Moreover, it is they that are the object of the annulling of the covenant. Finally, in verses 14-17 it says:You make a strong case here, as always
…I recently came across some OT prophesy around 6 weeks ago … that gave me some pause on this subject. Zechariah Chps 11 & 13 paint picture of Judas as a ‘worthless’ shepherd. Not a valued shepherd who suffered a brief lapse of faith.
Exegete for me Zechariah 11:7-17 & 13:7 … and show me where Judas is suggested as ever counted as a true sheep.
Please note that the annulling of the brotherhood between Judah and Israel refers to something much bigger than Judas. Judas never deserted the flock…he betrayed Jesus. The sword did not smote Judas, his arm didn’t wither, or his eye utterly blinded. These terms refer to Israel and its leadership. These are prophetic terms speaking of what will become of Israel at the hands of the shepherd that will be raised up to punish them. This is a prophecy of the coming punishment at the hands of the Romans when the Jewish leadership will be destroyed and the temple raised. Only a remnant survives.
I think you misunderstood 1believer. He is a very committed on fire Christian like yourself who loves Jesus. He is not “repulsed” by the cross in the sense that you think. It just makes his heart suffer to realize how much Jesus suffered to purchase his soul by His blood. He does not like to meditate on all the pains that His Beloved Lord endured to purchase freedom. This avoidance of the crucifix is also an act of love, as it illustrates how much a person does not want to cause Jesus pain by their sins.