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Xavierlives
Guest
So, If I understand your point, when he elected me to be one of his, nothing can impeach it?
(Sorry… too much election stuff on the news today).
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(Sorry… too much election stuff on the news today).
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jericho777
Guest
Election means He chose you, you didn’t choose Him. If He chooses you He gives you all the tools necessary to bring you home . Remember Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith Heb 12:2. All those in Christ are a new creation. A new man.
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Xavierlives
Guest
:whackadoo:
It was a joke. You see, there was a minor election in a little state yesterday and it has all of the spin doctors going. :juggle:
I know about the elect.
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jericho777
Guest
Sorrty I didn’t know but I voted in it yesterday
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Evan
Guest
I got the 4 points for a legal contract from Yahoo Small Business: smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-article-a-1431-m-1-sc-11-legal_requirements_for_a_contract-i
If you argue you don’t need to meet the requirements of a ‘legal contract’ you have an agreement, but not necessarily a contract.
I believe we have a covenant with God. This is different than a contract. A covenant is a formal alliance or agreement made by God with that religious community or with humanity in general. Common law would enforce a covenant even in the absence of consideration
(point 2)
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elvisman
Guest
**You can’t lose what you never had in the first place. Salvation is a lifelong process - not a slam-dunk, one-time occurrence. The Scriptures are very clear on this. **
**It is not a guarantte for all who believe but a wonderful promise for those who remain faithful and endure to the end:
Romans 11:22****
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”
Hebrews 10:26-27****
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
2 Peter 2:20-22****
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
**For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **
Matt. 24:13
He who endures to the end will be saved.
Matt. 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven.
**Jesus’ finished work on the cross redeems us - but we aren’t saved yet because we haven’t finished the race.
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AngloCatholic1
Guest
Xavierlives:
Once saved, always saved? Please help me out here!
What would have happened to the Prodigal Son if he had not DECIDED to return? What if he was knifed in the back whilst visiting some brothel?
In other words, what happens to a former child of God who turns his back upon the FATHER and NEVER chooses to REPENT?
Once saved, always saved? Please help me out here!
What would have happened to the Prodigal Son if he had not DECIDED to return? What if he was knifed in the back whilst visiting some brothel?
In other words, what happens to a former child of God who turns his back upon the FATHER and NEVER chooses to REPENT?
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jericho777
Guest
I think you are not believing God is able to save and preserve those He has called. Nothing can happen in the universe without His first allowing it to happen. If the prodigal son was never saved in the first place he would never have come back. 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
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shawn38
Guest
Forget legaistic terms of man! What does God say?
Romans 10
- 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
- 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
“In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” (Ephesians 1:13)
Did you truly accept Christ if you don’t trust in Him, grow spiritually, and bear fruit? No, you were luke warm.
Rev 3:15-16 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
Don’t sound good.
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Evan
Guest
And how do these reconcile with the equally important verses: Matt 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ “Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
or: Mt 7:21:
Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?” And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.”
Don’t sound so good for just “Belief” without “Acting on belief”
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Evan
Guest
Again…
Could it be?
Belief is a requirement but not sufficient.
When you come to breakfast and you are told, “Get a bowl and you’ll be served” but to truely receive breakfast you must have the bowl, I will fill it with food, but you must still eat what is given you.
Belief is brought to God who gives you grace, then you must not reject the grace but act on what He has given you, or you wil not be ‘fed’
Could it be?
Belief is a requirement but not sufficient.
When you come to breakfast and you are told, “Get a bowl and you’ll be served” but to truely receive breakfast you must have the bowl, I will fill it with food, but you must still eat what is given you.
Belief is brought to God who gives you grace, then you must not reject the grace but act on what He has given you, or you wil not be ‘fed’
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Xavierlives
Guest
The race is our life. Have you ever noticed we aren’t told to win our race but simple finish our race. I can crawl over the finish line battered and beaten. Champions of the race will be crowned. But not everyone will receive a prize. If you have ever run a race, you know when you first start, your only goal is to finish.
Once you are trained. Once you know the race, then you aim for your prize. A person aiming for the prize is beyond finishing, they are competing.
The prodigal son finished the race battered and bruised but he found his way back to his father who still acknowledge him as son.
With this, as I noted in my “disclaimers” on the OP, I am severely having to restrict my hours on CAF. I have 80 work weeks for the next 5 weeks and I will try to squeak in 30 mins here or there for this thread (since I just started it).
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Xavierlives
Guest
It isn’t a James “belief” that people talk of. People really misused the term now to encompass a faith. The demons lack faith.
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Third_Day
Guest
Please explain this concept more fully. Isn’t our inheritance eternal life? How can you be stripped of eternal life (our inheritance) yet have eternal life.?
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
If nothing can happen without His first allowing it, then is God the author of sin? God is indeed able to save; Catholics believe God really meant when He said He desires all men to be saved (2nd Peter 3:8-9) but God granted us and our first parents free will by in our creation, although our free will has been impaired due to the Fall–we still have the same choice that God gave Adam and Eve chose Him or not.
I’m confused why you bring this verse up. Didn’t the prodigal son leave? Does that mean that he never belonged?
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Xavierlives
Guest
As much as I appreciate the Yahoo School of Law, I’m telling you what a contract is. It is a legally enforceable agreement. I went to law school and had the distinct privelege of being a TA for Contracts my second and third year. If there is anything I remember it is contracts. It is burned in my memory in perpetuum.
We haven’t tried to go into what court of law this would be enforced. I’ll be happy to discuss that as well, but overall, for the purposes of this argument, I am making the assumption it is a heavenly bar which we will step up and present ourselves.
I’m not sure why you are missing the consideration.
A better argument for Catholics would be, do we have a unilateral contract or a bilateral contract (but maybe that is better left for another discussion).
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Xavierlives
Guest
Eternal life is tied to the right God grants us to be with him forever.
Well the other example being batted around here is the concept of the race. More specifically, our Christian life is a race. For some the race is short and for others it is long. I can lesurely stroll to the finish line or I can jog or I can all out sprint or any variation. A goal for many racers (especially beginners) is to simply finish. A goal for experienced racers is to finish well. While I might come across obstructions, muscle cramps, shortness of breath, whatever, I know my ultimate goal is to finish.
Personally, I would like to also do my very best. Now, I am asthmatic, so racing is personally difficult. I remember when I was training for the Marine Corps physical fitness exam, I couldn’t even finish the race. Only after continued training was I able to overcome my physical adversity and finish my race. I never was first, but I finished and I personally did better than I ever had done before. For asthmatic who ran that day, I was number 1.
Now our race to the spiritual finish line is the same way. I can cross the line in last place but what do I get to say? I finished. Maybe I was a horrible runner. People were laughing as they passed me, I like everyone ahead of me, get to at least say, I finished.
So what is at the finish line of a race? Does a last place finish get a prize? No. The reward to finishing the race is once you are there, you get to spend eternity with our heavenly Father.
The comparison to the prodigal son is, does he return and receive another inheritance? No. You waste your inheritance and POOF! it is gone. You can return to the Father and receive a warm “welcome home!” but your brother who was faithful will receive his fill inheritance while you have the benefit of being home, forever.
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elvisman
Guest
Sorry friend - but you’re confused.
**The Scriptures don’t contradict themselves. On the contrary, they compliment each other when read in context. **
The Scriptures are very clear that not only can you lose favor with God – it is your choice whether or not to do so. You can know the truth, live it, then, turn away (Romans 11:22, Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-21).**
Nobody can snatch us out of his hand – but we ourselves can walk away from him and the verses I provided are *very *clear on that. They do not speak of “pretenders” or those who “were never Christian to begin with.” They speak of those who WERE believers – who knew and lived the truth and later rejected it.
**For instance, we read in Acts 16:31: **
**“Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved.” **
**Does this mean that a mere intellectual ascent to acknowledging him is our salvation? No, because we read in Matt. 7:21 from Jesus’ own lips: **
**"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.” **
**Do these verses contradict each other? Absolutely not. Jesus is explaining that belief is much more than acknowledgement and I have spoken to many non-Catholics who believe this to be true. It is a total surrender to God, dying to ourselves, doing his will and remaining in the body of Christ - ALL for the rest of our life. It’s not a slam-dunk, one-time occurrence as the OSAS adherent believes. **
**The problem is when people read the Scriptures and dissect doctrines by reading different verses about that doctrine which seem to be at odds. For example, if you and I gave instructions to different people on hook up their satellite dish – we might express it differently, but the general instruction is the same and they will be successful. I may not have gone into as much detail as you and explained the importance of each step as clearly, but the message is the same and those steps are no less important. **
**The Scriptures are also very clear on salvation being a lifelong process for those who endure in faith (Matt. 24:13, 25:31–46, John 15:1-9, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, Phi. 2:12, Col. 1:23, Heb. 3:6, James, 1:12, 1 John 2:24-25, 5:13). Whereas God, who is outside of time (2 Pet. 3:8), already knows what choice we have made – he does not force it upon us. Neither does God create people just so that he can eternally damn them to hell. As I stated before – this would make him a monster. It is our cooperation – or rejection of his grace that determines our eternal destiny. Jesus paid for the sins of the entire world on the cross and invites all to accept this free gift, but doesn’t coerce us to believe in him. He gives us the means to believe in him. **
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elvisman
Guest
Continued . . .
**Whereas, His grace has given us the ability to see his truth, like scales falling from our eyes (Acts 9:18) – he doesn’t make us or coerce us believe. That is completely up to us and if we don’t cooperate with that grace, we cannot believe in the first place. A gift must be accepted, not forced upon someone. This is our cooperation with his grace. **
Mark 16:16, John 3:5 and I Peter 3:21 tell us that we’re saved by Baptism.
Rom. 10:10 tells us that we’re saved by Confession.
**2 Pet. 3:9 tells us that we’re saved by Repentance.****Are we saved by any single one of these or are we saved because we were faithful to him and ALL of his message to the end? **
**Whereas, His grace has given us the ability to see his truth, like scales falling from our eyes (Acts 9:18) – he doesn’t make us or coerce us believe. That is completely up to us and if we don’t cooperate with that grace, we cannot believe in the first place. A gift must be accepted, not forced upon someone. This is our cooperation with his grace. **
Mark 16:16, John 3:5 and I Peter 3:21 tell us that we’re saved by Baptism.
Rom. 10:10 tells us that we’re saved by Confession.
**2 Pet. 3:9 tells us that we’re saved by Repentance.****Are we saved by any single one of these or are we saved because we were faithful to him and ALL of his message to the end? **
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jericho777
Guest
God is not the author of sin He allows it for His purpose. The Holy Spirit is the restrainer of sin. God desires all men to be saved but not all men will be saved. Our free will is limited by our nature and the will of God. Unregenerate people are dead in their sin and trespasses. Regenerated people have the Spirit dwelling inside leading them. Believers have the ability to choose the things of God where as unbelievers limited by their fallen nature cannot choose the things of God.
The verse is saying they were not really believers in the first place and had an outward faith not an inner conversion. When the world dazzled them they were gone. The prodigal son was a son and had the nature of the father. Though we sin if and we are regenerate we will want to come back to the Father. Not like the world that cannot comprehend the things of God.
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