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tweetymom
Guest
Like I have told you a dozen times I teach what the Church teaches, nothing more nothing less.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
But you’ve told us like a dozen dozen times that you don’t believe in a lot of really major church teachings. Even so, you can absolutely ignore your own conscience and present those teachings with conviction, just as if you did believe them? Truly?
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qui_est_ce
Guest
You don’t have a problem teaching things you don’t believe in?
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tweetymom
Guest
Truly, I do not teach about Baptism ans most Church doctrines,others do that. I teach personal ministries and your personal prayer life.
If I were asked about Church teachings (never have been) I would tell the truth on how I feel.
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tweetymom
Guest
I do not teach things that I do not believe in.
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qui_est_ce
Guest
Good subject. We talked about that last night in RCIA. We are temples of the body of Christ.
That’s a relief!
If you do not believe the Teachings of the CC, why do you assist those wanting to enter in?
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tweetymom
Guest
- Because I was asked to by our Priest
- Because I want to.
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qui_est_ce
Guest
You must have a very deep spirituality. God bless
You want to help people become Catholic?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
And your priest/ supervisor is okay with that? Knowing that one of their teachers is dead against certain Catholic teachings and would (if asked) say that to them, the TRUTH is something totally against teachings of the Church?
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tweetymom
Guest
Thank you. And if that is what they want so be it. It is not my job to tell people what to do. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.You must have a very deep spirituality. God bless
You want to help people become Catholic?
Oh and by the way I never hide who I am.
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tweetymom
Guest
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tweetymom
Guest
Apparently because i never hide who I am. I do not teach anything against CC. Have never been asked in class anything contrary.And your priest/ supervisor is okay with that? Knowing that one of their teachers is dead against certain Catholic teachings and would (if asked) say that to them, the TRUTH is something totally against teachings of the Church?
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AwGusTeen
Guest
That’s not a scriptural position there Rev…
Ezekiel: 36 25-27: 25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
What do we have here? We have someone sprinkled with water and through that action, they are made clean from their filthiness, and they receive God’s spirit. This passage from the Old Testament shows us that God, by his own design and not that of men, uses an outward sign to bring about an inward change in his people – a foreshadowing of baptism in the New Testament. Notice how God in the old covenant was preparing use for what he gives us in the new covenant.
And now, let’s move on to the new testament to see the correlation.
Acts 2:38 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 22:16 16And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Scripture plainly tells us that Baptism washes away sin; and through Baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit. Is it through baptism that we become Christians and members of the Body of Christ, or do we become Christians by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. There is no passage in the Bible that says we become Christians by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior. While it is extremely important to have a personal relationship with Jesus, that in itself does not save.
1 Corinthians 12:13 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body [the body of Christ], whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:27 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Clearly, baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ and thus is the entrance into the new covenant with God, just a circumcision was the entrance into the old covenant with God. Scripture makes this connection for us in the following:
Colossians 2:11-12 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Baptism is the entrance into the new covenant as explicitly stated in the scripture above. So, is baptism salvific as the Catholic Church teaches? Once again, let’s go to scripture.
1 Peter 3: 20-21 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Just as Noah and his family were saved by water, water baptism now saves us. There it is; explicitly stated in the Bible. Further, let’s look at Jesus’ own words in John’s gospel…
John 3:5 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Further, let’s read on in context as follows a few verses later, after he finished his talk with Nicodemus…
John 3:22 22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
What did Jesus do immediately after telling Nicodemus how he can be saved? He sent the apostles went out baptizing with water. See the context? Baptism is the context in which one must be born of water and the spirit. Further, look at all of the accounts in the gospels about Jesus’ own baptism. Jesus is baptized with water and look what happens to him when he comes up out of the water (or is sprinkled)… the spirit descends upon him – water and the spirit.
In Matthew 28:19 what did Jesus say in his final instructions to the apostles? Go therefore and make disciples of all nations getting them to accept me into their hearts as their personal lord and savior? No. It says:
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Why is baptism given such paramount importance in Jesus’ final instructions to the apostles if it is only symbolic? Because it is salvific! Scripture simply does not support a symbolic view of baptism
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Xavierlives
Guest
PART 1 -
Now I will grant you that I have said I am taking up this challenge, for for the purposes of Apologetics, I am not defending my faith, but that does not mean I am not defend the faith. The faith at hand is OSAS and I am being true to form. I understand it (to the point that I went to a Baptist High School), so I understand it. So by saying “No True OSAS believer” is doing a disservice to the argument and to me.
Now to the argument. You say the argument is weak and I disagree. Maybe I wasn’t perfectly clear on how this scripture supports the belief. If you don’t know any farmers, I’ll give you a little background. I know oranges and orange trees. Orange trees start from a stock tree. A majority of stock trees are sour oranges. So, this tree normally produces a useless fruit (unless you like marmalade) but the tree is very hearty. Farmers begin grafting in the fruit limbs. Eventually your sour orange tree no longer produces sour oranges and instead Valencia and Navel (or whatever). If I am going to graft something, guess what? It has to be living. If I graft something dead, the stock tree can’t revive it. So, in this scripture, we see that the Church is the stock tree and there are many branches. If a tree isn’t producing, it is removed. It doesn’t die, so it must be nurtured somewhere else, but it is alive. A dead limb is tossed aside and burned, but we see the OSAS limb is not producing but still vibrant. So, it can be grafted into another tree. When the tree is ready, to be regrafted, it is. The limb is still from fruit tree, it is still alive, everyone is just waiting to see activity again.
Where is Diana when I need her? (There is a Mormon on CAF who likes to find logical fallacies in statements)
Now I will grant you that I have said I am taking up this challenge, for for the purposes of Apologetics, I am not defending my faith, but that does not mean I am not defend the faith. The faith at hand is OSAS and I am being true to form. I understand it (to the point that I went to a Baptist High School), so I understand it. So by saying “No True OSAS believer” is doing a disservice to the argument and to me.
Now to the argument. You say the argument is weak and I disagree. Maybe I wasn’t perfectly clear on how this scripture supports the belief. If you don’t know any farmers, I’ll give you a little background. I know oranges and orange trees. Orange trees start from a stock tree. A majority of stock trees are sour oranges. So, this tree normally produces a useless fruit (unless you like marmalade) but the tree is very hearty. Farmers begin grafting in the fruit limbs. Eventually your sour orange tree no longer produces sour oranges and instead Valencia and Navel (or whatever). If I am going to graft something, guess what? It has to be living. If I graft something dead, the stock tree can’t revive it. So, in this scripture, we see that the Church is the stock tree and there are many branches. If a tree isn’t producing, it is removed. It doesn’t die, so it must be nurtured somewhere else, but it is alive. A dead limb is tossed aside and burned, but we see the OSAS limb is not producing but still vibrant. So, it can be grafted into another tree. When the tree is ready, to be regrafted, it is. The limb is still from fruit tree, it is still alive, everyone is just waiting to see activity again.
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Xavierlives
Guest
PART 2 -
The context of the scripture before this.
Which is critical. Hebrews 10:1-4 says
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Then Hebrews 10:8-10 says
8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Finally in Hebrews 10
17Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.” 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
So to recap, we see the Jews moving from a sin and annual animal sacrifice to sin a Jesus’ sacrifice. I went through the trouble of listing all of the scripture because this really illustrates the dangers of picking and choosing of scriptures without context. So now we are right back to
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
What in context to everything else is being said?
Otherwise I could use Matt 27:5 and Luke 10:37 together and come up with
“Judas went out and hung himself” “Go and do likewise."
So, my point is still valid. The scripture is discussing false teachers. Sure this is valid for other false teachers (or as a warning to teachers).
Number one, it does not deny free will. I’m not even sure where you get this idea.
The context of the scripture before this.
Which is critical. Hebrews 10:1-4 says
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Then Hebrews 10:8-10 says
8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Finally in Hebrews 10
17Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.” 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
So to recap, we see the Jews moving from a sin and annual animal sacrifice to sin a Jesus’ sacrifice. I went through the trouble of listing all of the scripture because this really illustrates the dangers of picking and choosing of scriptures without context. So now we are right back to
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
What in context to everything else is being said?
- Once we learn of Christ’s truth, we are held to that standard, but there is no opportunity for the animal sacrifice.
- If we deliberately continue to sin, only Christ’s sacrifice remains. Now we can go into intent if you like, but because you do not intend does not free you from the sin (as you know).
- Back to the tree for a second, if you finally become dead to your sin, then you will be burned.
While I agree the Bible can speak to all people, you can’t take scripture out of context and plug it in like it was a Mad Lib.
Otherwise I could use Matt 27:5 and Luke 10:37 together and come up with
“Judas went out and hung himself” “Go and do likewise."
So, my point is still valid. The scripture is discussing false teachers. Sure this is valid for other false teachers (or as a warning to teachers).
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qui_est_ce
Guest
You beat me to it. Awesome post.
We can at least agree that Catholics DO follow Scripture. It’s the interpretation where SOME Protestants disagree with Catholic Church Teaching. I believe Protestants are divided on the issue of the Saving Power and necessity of Baptism? Would Baptism be a non “essential” for some Protestants?
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qui_est_ce
Guest
Jesus is quoting Psalm 40, which condemns people for offering sacrifice but not taking care of widows and orphans. They are offering sacrifices but not obeying his commandments.
40:7
sacrifice and offering you do not want; but ears open to obedience you gave me. Holocausts and sin-offerings you do not require;
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jmcrae
Guest
That’s actually true - they’re not. However, they are still bound to the natural law, which means that if they ever at any time do anything that is wrong (that is, if they break any one of the seven precepts of the Noahide Covenant - do not lie, do not steal, do not kill, do not be jealous, do not envy, do not dishonor your parents, do not break your solemn promises), while knowing that it’s wrong (these laws are written on our hearts; it’s difficult to not know that these things are wrong, unless you are actually psychotic - I am sure there are mothers out in the untracked wilderness who yell at their kids for lying to them about stealing the best-tasting bugs out of the termite stump, thus ruining their appetite for dinner), without being forced to do so, then they still have a major problem.
However, if someone who had never heard of Christ managed to get through 90-110 years of life without ever knowingly doing something wrong, then they would probably receive some kind of consideration for that in the Last Judgement.
Given the tendency of human beings to drag each other down to the lowest level, though, I consider it unlikely that anyone could ever make it that far. Even in Youth Group, nobody wants to be the “good girl” - they say and do things that don’t even fit their personalities, just to “fit in” and “be like everyone else,” which makes me think that anyone who managed to live a life without sin, without the grace of God to help them, never lived to be as old as thirteen years old.
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jmcrae
Guest
Because the Apostles taught us that "we believe in one Baptism, for the forgiveness of sins."
Not multiple baptisms.
The remedy for post-baptismal sin is the Confessional.
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