A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[elvisman]

So your not saved?

Nope - I’m BEING saved.
I won’t know for sure until I “finish the race”. I don’t have an absolute guarantee - I have a moral assurance that I WILL be saved, IF I remain faithful to the end.

 

[elvisman]

PART 1 -

Where is Diana when I need her? (There is a Mormon on CAF who likes to find logical fallacies in statements)

Now I will grant you that I have said I am taking up this challenge, for for the purposes of Apologetics, I am not defending my faith, but that does not mean I am not defend the faith. The faith at hand is OSAS and I am being true to form. I understand it (to the point that I went to a Baptist High School), so I understand it. So by saying “No True OSAS believer” is doing a disservice to the argument and to me.

Now to the argument. You say the argument is weak and I disagree. Maybe I wasn’t perfectly clear on how this scripture supports the belief. If you don’t know any farmers, I’ll give you a little background. I know oranges and orange trees. Orange trees start from a stock tree. A majority of stock trees are sour oranges. So, this tree normally produces a useless fruit (unless you like marmalade) but the tree is very hearty. Farmers begin grafting in the fruit limbs. Eventually your sour orange tree no longer produces sour oranges and instead Valencia and Navel (or whatever). If I am going to graft something, guess what? It has to be living. If I graft something dead, the stock tree can’t revive it. So, in this scripture, we see that the Church is the stock tree and there are many branches. If a tree isn’t producing, it is removed. It doesn’t die, so it must be nurtured somewhere else, but it is alive. A dead limb is tossed aside and burned, but we see the OSAS limb is not producing but still vibrant. So, it can be grafted into another tree. When the tree is ready, to be regrafted, it is. The limb is still from fruit tree, it is still alive, everyone is just waiting to see activity again.

That is false - according to the Scriptures.
**It IS dead until it (the person) repents and comes back to new life. The relationship with God is severed (DEAD). **It (they) are then grafted back in.
This is why St. John refers to this as “deadly sin” (1 John 5:16).

Yours is a poor analogy because, unlike dead orange tree limbs, a human soul can come back to life.

 

[elvisman]

PART 2

Number one, it does not deny free will. I’m not even sure where you get this idea.

Oh – but it IS. Sin, especially grave or mortal sin is a rejection of Christ and a surrender to our own will.
To imply that somebody cannot reject Christ after being reborn denies free will and goes against the context of Scripture.

So to recap, we see the Jews moving from a sin and annual animal sacrifice to sin a Jesus’ sacrifice. I went through the trouble of listing all of the scripture because this really illustrates the dangers of picking and choosing of scriptures without context. So now we are right back to

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
What in context to everything else is being said?

1. Once we learn of Christ’s truth, we are held to that standard, but there is no opportunity for the animal sacrifice.
2. If we deliberately continue to sin, only Christ’s sacrifice remains. Now we can go into intent if you like, but because you do not intend does not free you from the sin (as you know).
3. Back to the tree for a second, if you finally become dead to your sin, then you will be burned.

So, as I stated, Christ is not being rejected here. These verses are trying to keep the fellowship of Christians close. Christians should be meeting regularly and encouraging the brethren to cease from sinning and move closer to God. We should be out reminding our brothers. We are failing to do our jobs if our brother remains outside the fellowship, and sinning but at no time do we see the brother rejecting Christ. When a person sins are they rejecting Christ? No. Are they doomed? No. Christ sacrifice as previously stated is still good. There isn’t a need for an annual renewal, like the animal sacrifice, but there is a need to acknowledge the sin and get out of the life of sin.

WHAT***?***
This is a preposterous rendering of this passage. Why is it that OSAS adherents – and most Protestants ion general – have to do so much Scriptural acrobatics to reach their point. Read what it says:
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (Christ), there no longer remains sacrifice for sins (the FINISHED work of Christ) but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries (Hell).”

Hebrews is written to Jewish CHRISTIANS who are aware of the sacrifice made by Christ and the promise of salvation. ***
The author is telling them that they MUST****** remain FAITHFUL. because as soon* as they fall into sin – they are lost.**
**The sinner must repent to come back. **

While I agree the Bible can speak to all people, you can’t take scripture out of context and plug it in like it was a Mad Lib.

Otherwise I could use Matt 27:5 and Luke 10:37 together and come up with
“Judas went out and hung himself” “Go and do likewise."
So, my point is still valid. The scripture is discussing false teachers. Sure this is valid for other false teachers (or as a warning to teachers).

Whether or not you find it inconvenient - the rules apply to ALL of us – not just some.

 

[Xavierlives]

That is false - according to the Scriptures.
It IS dead until it (the person) repents and comes back to new life. The relationship with God is severed (DEAD). It (they) are then grafted back in.
This is why St. John refers to this as “deadly sin” (1 John 5:16).

Yours is a poor analogy because, unlike dead orange tree limbs, a human soul can come back to life.

Alas, it isn’t my analogy. All I added was the oranges. It is from the Bible as you know so you are saying the Bible is false. Grafting isn’t a new thing. God knew it would be around, that’s why it is there. But you can’t pick and choose the parts you like to fit your theology.

 

[SHW]

I’ve heard all the arguments about the “whole house hold” thing and I’m not buying the arguments.

What? No children present in whole households? Mighty strange households with the owners having no children and the servants having no children either.

And, you are discounting the early church father’s sermons also? They make it very plain that infants and children are baptized and they explain that the reason for baptizing them is because Baptism washes away Original Sin.

 

[Xavierlives]

Oh – but it IS. Sin, especially grave or mortal sin is a rejection of Christ and a surrender to our own will.
To imply that somebody cannot reject Christ after being reborn denies free will and goes against the context of Scripture.

WHAT***?***
This is a preposterous rendering of this passage. Why is it that OSAS adherents – and most Protestants ion general – have to do so much Scriptural acrobatics to reach their point. Read what it says:
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (Christ), there no longer remains sacrifice for sins (the FINISHED work of Christ) but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries (Hell).”

Acrobatics? You are the one taking scripture out of context and then I am having to apply the entire text to first explain your error and then 9 times out of 10 show you how in fact your scripture can be used in my favor.

Maybe before you cut and paste, you should say, I am going to go 5 back and 5 forward and see what this is all about. If it still applies, then proceed with using it.

Hebrews is written to Jewish CHRISTIANS who are aware of the sacrifice made by Christ and the promise of salvation. ***
The author is telling them that they MUST****** remain FAITHFUL. because as soon*** as they fall into sin – they are lost.
**The sinner must repent to come back. **

Whether or not you find it inconvenient - the rules apply to ALL of us – not just some.

Ok… I am reminding myself… charity…charity.

Well, if you are a false teacher, you better beware!.

 

[SHW]

Christ never leaves us even if we disobey him, to say otherwise is saying that God only loves us if we do what he says which is not true.

Christ never leaves us before we die while we are still alive on earth. He is Love 2 Timothy 2:13 and He cannot deny mankind because He loves mankind and because of His love for us, He redeemed us John 3:16.

We can deny Him though through our own free will choices Titus 1:16, Matthew 10:33 and if we die in that state of mortal sin, then He will deny us eternal life 2 Timothy 2:12. God forces no persons to love Him (which also means to obey Him), but if they choose to not love Him (if they choose to not obey His commandments), then they will be separated from Him in the darkness and misery of hell for eternity Matthew 13:41-43.

If a person does not keep/obey His commandments, then He does not love God John 14:21, 1 John 2:4. Jesus only gives eternal life to those persons who obey/love Him Hebrews 5:9, James 1:12.

 

[Xavierlives]

Christ never leaves us before we die while we are still alive on earth. He is Love 2 Timothy 2:13 and He cannot deny mankind because He loves mankind and because of His love for us, He redeemed us John 3:16.

We can deny Him though through our own free will choices Titus 1:16, Matthew 10:33 and if we die in that state of mortal sin, then He will deny us eternal life 2 Timothy 2:12. God forces no persons to love Him (which also means to obey Him), but if they choose to not love Him (if they choose to not obey His commandments), then they will be separated from Him in the darkness and misery of hell for eternity Matthew 13:41-43.

If a person does not keep/obey His commandments, then He does not love God John 14:21, 1 John 2:4. Jesus only gives eternal life to those persons who obey/love Him Hebrews 5:9, James 1:12.

So grace so long as you don’t commit a mortal sin and die?

 

[distracted]

Your first premise is WRONG. Salvation is NOT A CONTRACT.
If you want a contract that ensures your salvation, believe whatever you want.
However, if you want a living, real, good relationship with God, you must do what God wills. Otherwise, you won’t have a very good relationship with Him. If you don’t think that matters, again, believe whatever you want and do whatever you please.
You might think you have a contract with God, but you won’t have a decent relationship with Him.

just off the top of my head i would say that we Christians have both… but never having met God except in his Church… i wouldn’t know for sure…

in any case, some think that since it is NOT a contract, stricly speaking, this is why they can do whatever they want and still be in good w/ God… so maybe that “its not a contract” thing is not exactly the best way to say things(?)…

 

[SHW]

Me either Rev.

Perhaps you missed the quotes from the early church fathers that I posted earlier:

Irenaeus
“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Origen
“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . .** In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants.** If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]). From: catholic.com/library/Earl…nt_Baptism.asp

It is very plain that the Apostles baptized infants and children in order to wash away (forgive/remit) Original Sin. This teaching and practice was passed down through Apostolic Succession.

Baptism sanctifies the soul 1 Corinthians 6:11, Ephesians 5:26. It makes souls holy: free from Original Sin and also all other personal sins on the soul at the time of Baptism. Since babies have no personal sins on their souls at the time of their baptisms, then Baptism washes away only Original Sin at the time of their baptisms.

 

[jmcrae]

So grace so long as you don’t commit a mortal sin and die?

Right.

 

[SHW]

So why do I not do as the Essene and be baptized daily?

The main reason to be baptized is for the forgiveness of Original Sin. Original Sin can only be removed once. Baptism puts a mark or seal upon the soul Ephesians 1:13 when Original Sin is removed. Original Sin cannot ever be put back on the soul so re-baptism is irrelevant/unnecessary.

After baptism, if we sin mortal/deadly sins, then we repent and confess them to a priest because Jesus forgives sins through them John 20:22-23, 1 John 1:5-9, 1 John 2:1-6.

 

[SHW]

So grace so long as you don’t commit a mortal sin and die?

Mortal/deadly sin causes the loss of spiritual fellowship with God (loss of sanctifying grace which enables us/gives us the right to inherit eternal life Revelation 22:14, Proverbs 11:30) and so the person who has mortal sin/s on his soul is no longer eligible to inherit eternal life 1 Corinthians 3:16-18, Hebrews 10:26-27. However, Jesus always gives enough actual grace to the person so that he can repent if he chooses to repent.

In other words, Jesus keeps calling him back (actual grace) to repentance Mark 2:16-18 until the instant of his death 2 Peter 3:9. If he repents and confesses his mortal sins before death, then he will receive sanctifying grace again and he will again have the right to eternal life if he continues in this state of sanctifying grace until he dies.

It is the Holy Spirit living within the soul (sanctifying grace) at the time of death which guarantees eternal life for the person 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:13-14.

If the Holy Spirit is not abiding/living within a person’s soul at the time of his death because of mortal sin on his soul, then he will be destroyed/damned for eternity 1 Corinthians 3:16-18. Sanctifying grace (Holy Spirit) in the soul at the time of death is what gives the person the right to eternal life/guarantee of eternal life.

 

[Xavierlives]

Mortal/deadly sin causes the loss of spiritual fellowship with God (loss of sanctifying grace which enables us/gives us the right to inherit eternal life Revelation 22:14, Proverbs 11:30) and so the person who has mortal sin/s on his soul is no longer eligible to inherit eternal life 1 Corinthians 3:16-18, Hebrews 10:26-27. However, Jesus always gives enough actual grace to the person so that he can repent if he chooses to repent.

In other words, Jesus keeps calling him back (actual grace) to repentance Mark 2:16-18 until the instant of his death 2 Peter 3:9. If he repents and confesses his mortal sins before death, then he will receive sanctifying grace again and he will again have the right to eternal life if he continues in this state of sanctifying grace until he dies.

It is the Holy Spirit living within the soul (sanctifying grace) at the time of death which guarantees eternal life for the person 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:13-14.

If the Holy Spirit is not abiding/living within a person’s soul at the time of his death because of mortal sin on his soul, then he will be destroyed/damned for eternity 1 Corinthians 3:16-18. Sanctifying grace (Holy Spirit) in the soul at the time of death is what gives the person the right to eternal life/guarantee of eternal life.

Hmm… I am really trying to understand this so please bear with me. But I can be living with this blot of a mortal sin on my soul and moments before death, realize the error of my way, repent and be saved?

 

[jmcrae]

Hmm… I am really trying to understand this so please bear with me. But I can be living with this blot of a mortal sin on my soul and moments before death, realize the error of my way, repent and be saved?

In theory, yes - this could happen.

How likely is it, though, that if in many years of calmness and clarity of thought you didn’t realize that you had this mortal sin on your soul (which boggles the imagination, since a mortal sin is, by definition, something you knew at the time was going to separate you from the love of God and neighbor) and then suddenly in the chaos and pain of impending death when what’s uppermost in your mind is, “Something has gone terribly wrong; my (body part(s)) isn’t/aren’t working properly - I think I might need a doctor”, - then, suddenly you are going to have the clarity of mind to recall what you did, and the presence of mind to pray to God for forgiveness for that sin, with perfect contrition?

I got hit by a bus one time. Believe me, I was not thinking about my past sins, and in all of the chaos, I wasn’t finding the time, or the level of calm needed, to do any coherent praying - I wasn’t even able to swear or curse, I was so upset; I was just saying “Ah! Ah! Ah!” and there wasn’t really much of anything at all going on in my mind, at the time.

 

[Xavierlives]

In theory, yes - this could happen.

How likely is it, though, that if in many years of calmness and clarity of thought you didn’t realize that you had this mortal sin on your soul (which boggles the imagination, since a mortal sin is, by definition, something you knew at the time was going to separate you from the love of God and neighbor) and then suddenly in the chaos and pain of impending death when what’s uppermost in your mind is, “Something has gone terribly wrong; my (body part(s)) isn’t/aren’t working properly - I think I might need a doctor”, - then, suddenly you are going to have the clarity of mind to recall what you did, and the presence of mind to pray to God for forgiveness for that sin, with perfect contrition?

I got hit by a bus one time. Believe me, I was not thinking about my past sins, and in all of the chaos, I wasn’t finding the time, or the level of calm needed, to do any coherent praying - I wasn’t even able to swear or curse, I was so upset; I was just saying “Ah! Ah! Ah!” and there wasn’t really much of anything at all going on in my mind, at the time.

Wow! I’ve never had trauma experience quite like that, but I did once have an asthma attack that was so severe that I blacked out. I was in and out of consciousness from that point and while they contemplated intubation and other various exteme treatments (epinephrine), I remember reflecting on how thankful I was that I was saved. I eventually found myself in a bright room… of the ICU (you thought I was going to say heaven, didn’t you?).

 

[jmcrae]

Wow! I’ve never had trauma experience quite like that, but I did once have an asthma attack that was so severe that I blacked out. I was in and out of consciousness from that point and while they contemplated intubation and other various exteme treatments (epinephrine), I remember reflecting on how thankful I was that I was saved.

See? You continued in the same habits of thought that you had been used to when you were going about your normal day. Nothing “revealed itself” to you.

I eventually found myself in a bright room… of the ICU (you thought I was going to say heaven, didn’t you?).

In my case, it was the recovery room. I threw up for three days straight and then on the fourth day they sent me home. Yay, for jello and ginger ale.

 

[tweetymom]

Perhaps you missed the quotes from the early church fathers that I posted earlier:

It is very plain that the Apostles baptized infants and children in order to wash away (forgive/remit) Original Sin. This teaching and practice was passed down through Apostolic Succession.

Baptism sanctifies the soul 1 Corinthians 6:11, Ephesians 5:26. It makes souls holy: free from Original Sin and also all other personal sins on the soul at the time of Baptism. Since babies have no personal sins on their souls at the time of their baptisms, then Baptism washes away only Original Sin at the time of their baptisms.

No I did not miss any of your posts. But what you post is from men.

 

[rdscheirer]

Then why did Paul say in one of his letters-work on your salvation with fear and trepidation.

Let’s see if I was once saved I could murder, rob, steal, and still know I’m going to Heaven “cause I was once saved”

As Luther said SIN and SIN abundantly.

 

[Xavierlives]

See? You continued in the same habits of thought that you had been used to when you were going about your normal day. Nothing “revealed itself” to you.



In my case, it was the recovery room. I threw up for three days straight and then on the fourth day they sent me home. Yay, for jello and ginger ale.

Nothing revealed itself because I was perfectly at peace with my place.