A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[rush176]

Did God offer you salvation?

Did you accept?

You have a contract. Ask any lawyer.

A contract can only be made between two parties who have something of value to offer each other. We have nothing God needs. Out of his love for us he offers us a chance at heaven. We much chose to accept or reject him. But our decision is not a one time decision. It is an ongoing, continual decision that manifests itself in how we live our lives.

Plus a calling it a contract means that there is some being able to judge if both parties have fulfilled their part of the contract. Who would be so vain as to think they could judge God other than Satan and his followers?

The book of James clearly says that faith without works is dead. Once saved always saved is a false teaching from the Father of Lies and can only lead people to hell. Sometimes I wonder what Martin Luther would say today if he could speak to us now that he knows the folly of his teachings and the actual source of them.

 

[Xavierlives]

Nope - I just wanted you to admit the folley of your defense of OSAS - whether you personally believe in it or not. And you have done just that when you said the dead branches are burned.

Conclusion:
**You CAN **lose your faith - even if you were grafted in by Christ.

Game. Set. MATCH**.

Maybe the folly is you aren’t reading. I said the dead branches are burned about 50 posts ago. The dead branches are burned when they are dead (no surprises there). As I previously stated, to a OSAS believer, this would be when they reject Christ. And again, the only way to lose one’s salvation would be a rejection of that salvation.

So, yes. I believe we are done.

As for discussing things with you, I think I am going to call an end. I do not like the way you talk to the others on this thread and although I have tried to be hospitable, I can no longer pander to your disrespect and lack of charity.

Good day.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The point is Elvisman, that you throw out John 15:6 without John 15:16 and separate His instruction for some to apply to all of us and others only to His apostles. In the same words of life He tells those He has chosen to abide in Him and yet thereafter He then promises them the very same commission.

Rocket_Man, we can learn from everything written in the Bible. When Christ was specifically speaking to His Apostles, He was teaching them the authority He granted to them. We cannot apply everything to ourselves individually. How can each individual apply the keys to the kingdom of heaven, the authority to bind and loose and the authority to forgive or retain sins? When we’re able to witness a teaching from the Lord to the Apostles, we can understand what they are teaching us and how to apply teachings to our life. We are all called to share the Gospel, but as Paul wrote, we are not all to assume an authority we desire for ourselves:

**1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and members of member.
1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?
1Co 12:30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? **

 

[AwGusTeen]

If Saul had already been saved and his sins had already been washed away, then 3 days later he was told to be baptized and wash away your sins? Because Saul was already cleansed spiritually, these words refer to the symbolism of baptism.

That’s the point that you are missing… Saul had NOT already been cleansed spiritually – hence the requirement for his Baptism.

John 3:22 22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. ???

And what is it about this verse that you don’t understand? Have you never seen it before?

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: The disciples were to baptize people because baptism unites believers with Christ in their death to sin and their resurrection to new life Baptism symbolizes submission to Christ, a willingness to live God’s way.

And what is your scriptural backing for this?

You have ignored all but two of the many scriptural references that I presented in support of salvific Baptism. Have you no scriptural refutation for them, or are we to simply accept your opinions and interpretations on face value?

 

[Xavierlives]

So - you’re saying you ARE a devil?
Jesus said it to the Apostles, so by your logic, you are.

If you’re teaching that every verse of Scripture is aimed an ALL** of us - you are teaching falsehoods.

PS - Who told you that you’re an Apostle? Another arrogant falsehood.

Lets look at the abundance of charity:
You are a Devil. You are arrogant.

That is an ignorant statement.

Jesus spoke to individuals sometimes, such as John 21:15-18, where he asked Peter 3 times if he loved him. He then told Peter to feed his sheep and alluded to what manner of death by which he would glorify God. You and Rocket_Man BOTH need to read the Scriptures in CONTEXT.

Are YOU a devil (John 6:70)?

Not ALL of what Jesus said was aimed at all of us.

You are ignorant.

Hi, Tweetymom,

The problem, at least as I appreciate it, is that just because you do not agree with someone - you do not have to lash out at them. I really think Elvisman was both accurate and charitable in assessing your statements.

Maybe a clamer approach would be more helpful…

God bless

I don’t have my charity measuring stick handy, but this kind of tone makes me not want to have discussions with him.

 

[Xavierlives]

A contract can only be made between two parties who have something of value to offer each other. We have nothing God needs. Out of his love for us he offers us a chance at heaven. We much chose to accept or reject him. But our decision is not a one time decision. It is an ongoing, continual decision that manifests itself in how we live our lives.

Plus a calling it a contract means that there is some being able to judge if both parties have fulfilled their part of the contract. Who would be so vain as to think they could judge God other than Satan and his followers?

The book of James clearly says that faith without works is dead. Once saved always saved is a false teaching from the Father of Lies and can only lead people to hell. Sometimes I wonder what Martin Luther would say today if he could speak to us now that he knows the folly of his teachings and the actual source of them.

The bargain for exchange is not important. You want to think in monetary value when you can’t. I have a gold ring on my finger I wouldn’t sell you for a million dollars, but if you pointed a gun at my wife, I would give it to you in an instance. What God is getting out of the deal is significant to him, He is getting you. He says you are valued. And you should value Him.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Rocket_Man, we can learn from everything written in the Bible. When Christ was specifically speaking to His Apostles, He was teaching them the authority He granted to them. We cannot apply everything to ourselves individually. How can each individual apply the keys to the kingdom of heaven, the authority to bind and loose and the authority to forgive or retain sins? When we’re able to witness a teaching from the Lord to the Apostles, we can understand what they are teaching us and how to apply teachings to our life. We are all called to share the Gospel, but as Paul wrote, we are not all to assume an authority we desire for ourselves:

Again, It seems that someone here is applying some verses universally and others only binding to the apostles when taken from the very same instructions to His chosen.

 

[jlhargus]

mark

 

[jmcrae]

Nothing revealed itself because I was perfectly at peace with my place.

Right. I expect that exactly the same thing would happen with a Hindu or a Buddhist or anyone else facing a near-death experience. No warning angels coming to alert them to their unconfessed sins, or their need for Christ, etc.

 

[jmcrae]

The bargain for exchange is not important. You want to think in monetary value when you can’t. I have a gold ring on my finger I wouldn’t sell you for a million dollars, but if you pointed a gun at my wife, I would give it to you in an instance. What God is getting out of the deal is significant to him, He is getting you. He says you are valued. And you should value Him.

Which makes it an exchange of persons (a Covenant) - He gets you, and you get Him - not an exchange of goods and/or services (a contract) where He gets your good works and in exchange, you get to go to Heaven.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Again, It seems that someone here is applying some verses universally and others only binding to the apostles when taken from the very same instructions to His chosen.

By example, we know how to live our lives and we know the promises of Christ. When He said I chose you, He was speaking to the 12. They were the chosen in that passage, if you read the story in context.

Like I said, how do we read the giving of the keys to the kingdom of heaven, the authority to bind and loose and the authority to forgive and retain sins? Was that for ALL of us, or was He speaking to Peter and the other Apostles, and we’re able to see what took place?

 

[elvisman]

Suppose I can do the same?

The problem here with the Scriptures you wuoted from Matt. 18 is that the offense wasn’t against me, personally.

You are speaking against Church teaching so the entire Church is offended.
A public disobedience calls for a public rebuke.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Rocket_Man, we can learn from everything written in the Bible. When Christ was specifically speaking to His Apostles, He was teaching them the authority He granted to them. We cannot apply everything to ourselves individually. How can each individual apply the keys to the kingdom of heaven, the authority to bind and loose and the authority to forgive or retain sins? When we’re able to witness a teaching from the Lord to the Apostles, we can understand what they are teaching us and how to apply teachings to our life. We are all called to share the Gospel, but as Paul wrote, we are not all to assume an authority we desire for ourselves:

1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and members of member.
1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?
1Co 12:30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

This is another example: 1 Corithians 12 begins with the words “Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant” . The whole chapter is about contentions and divisions within the church regarding spiritual gifts. 1Co 12:28-30 is not an establishment of authority, but is an order of separation of these spiritual gifts throughout the body and each being equal in edification of one to another.

 

[elvisman]

Lets look at the abundance of charity:
**You are a Devil. You are arrogant. **You are ignorant.

I’M a Devil?? WHY would you call me that? Because I disagree with you?
Talk about a desperate statement . . .

I don’t have my charity measuring stick handy, but this kind of tone makes me not want to have discussions with him.

Why** would you make such a statement? I never called Tweetymom “arrogant”. I said her STATEMENT was arrogant.**
This is not a forum for ad hominems, but I can see your frustration because of the lack of substantial evidence on your posts.

And, let’s be honest. The only thing that makes you not want to have discussions with me is that I’m using the Scriptures to debunk all of your positions on OSAS and am nailing you to the wall with the truth.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This is another example: 1 Corithians 12 begins with the words “Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant” . The whole chapter is about contentions and divisions within the church regarding spiritual gifts. 1Co 12:28-30 is not an establishment of authority, but is an order of separation of these spiritual gifts throughout the body and each being equal in edification of one to another.

The short passage is quite clear. The instructions can be summed up with one verse.

**1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches. **

God set the authority in His Church and not the desires of men.

 

[elvisman]

Where does it state that its a process?

For starters: Acts 2:47 Romans 11:22, Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4.

 

[elvisman]

The point is Elvisman, that you throw out John 15:6 without John 15:16 and separate His instruction for some to apply to all of us and others only to His apostles. In the same words of life He tells those He has chosen to abide in Him and yet thereafter He then promises them the very same commission.

He has given us the means and the opportunity to stick with him. The CONTEXT of these passages illustrated this perfectly.
Your problem is that you actually believe that he forces or coerces us to stick with him.
**Romans 11:22, Hebrews 10:26-27 **and 2 Peter 2:20-22 ALL show this position to be incorrect and unbiblical.

 

[elvisman]

Maybe the folly is you aren’t reading. I said the dead branches are burned about 50 posts ago. The dead branches are burned when they are dead (no surprises there). As I previously stated, to a OSAS believer, this would be when they reject Christ. And again, the only way to lose one’s salvation would be a rejection of that salvation.

So, yes. I believe we are done.

As for discussing things with you, I think I am going to call an end. I do not like the way you talk to the others on this thread and although I have tried to be hospitable, I can no longer pander to your disrespect and lack of charity.

Good day.

**Again – you ****don’t **like talking to me because you can’t get away with misrepresenting the truth. You change your positions as often as your socks.
**We have PROVEN to you that ****OSAS **is a man-made farce and you simply can‘t accept it.
You’re a debate teacher that was out-debated by a bunch of amateurs and all we did was use the same Bible you used to form your skewed logic.

---

If you don‘t want to speak with me, that’s fine – but be honest with yourself.**

 

[SHW]

Hmm… I am really trying to understand this so please bear with me. But I can be living with this blot of a mortal sin on my soul and moments before death, realize the error of my way, repent and be saved?

Yes, but it is not very likely that you will.

John states:

1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

Venial sin is “sin which does not lead to death.” Venial sin does not cause the loss of sanctifying grace. In other words, venial sin does not cause the loss of eternal life.

John is stating that their prayers might not be answered if they pray for a person in mortal sin because persons living in mortal sin (sin leading to death/loss of sanctifying grace/loss of eternal life) usually like doing these sins and so they rarely decide to repent before they die. He is stressing the point that Christians/brothers who are in a state of mortal sin rarely repent of their sins. They prefer sinning/selfishness rather than loving/obeying God. John speaks in this manner in order to teach his listeners the seriousness of mortal sin.

This “seriousness” about mortal sin and loss of sanctifying grace/loss of eternal life is also why the author of Hebrews uses hyperbole/exaggeration here:

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

It is possible for people living in/hardened by mortal sin to repent before they die, but it is highly unlikely that they will. We must keep praying for them anyway. James 5:19-20

 

[jmcrae]

The point is Elvisman, that you throw out John 15:6 without John 15:16 and separate His instruction for some to apply to all of us and others only to His apostles. In the same words of life He tells those He has chosen to abide in Him and yet thereafter He then promises them the very same commission.

It’s very simple, really - when He was speaking to the Apostles alone, then the instruction is for the Apostles and their successors alone. When He is speaking to “the crowds” then it is an instruction for all of us to follow.