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zach_dunn
Guest
Do you think our God would command us to do something we could not do?
Matthew 5:48
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Souls in heaven are perfect
In heaven we see God “face to face” [1 Cor 13:12], God tells us to be perfect in front of Him:
Deuteronomy 18:13
Thou shalt be perfect, and without spot before the Lord thy God.
And in heaven, no one with sin can enter:
Revelation 21:27
There shall not enter into it [heaven] any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.
It would seem that we can be perfect.
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rev_kevin
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Are you sayi;ng that the word perfect means Mature or complite. Or do you mean it to be flawless?That we do what we are supposed to do, and we don’t do what we are not supposed to do.
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jmcrae
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I mean what I said. That we do what we are supposed to do, and we don’t do what we aren’t supposed to do.
Maturity and flawlessness are other definitions that apply, as well, since when we are perfect in our walk with Christ, we will be both mature and flawless. However, even if you are not completely mature yet, you can still be flawless today, or at least for the next four hours. And if you mess up, God has given us the Sacrament of Reconciliation, to get us back into the game again - we simply confess what we did and receive the Absolution, and that sin is gone from our souls.
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SHW
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People may choose to believe whatever they desire. This is called free will choice.
However, what they each believe may or may not be true. It is important to find truth and then believe it.
No person will be allowed to enter eternal life unless he obeys God’s commandments until the end of his life. Jesus only saves those persons who actually obey His commandments.
Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
This is Biblical Truth. John 14:6
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rev_kevin
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The word perfection means “mature or complete” not “flawless.” This is what Paul said the meaning of perfection is in Colossians 2: 28-29I mean what I said. That we do what we are supposed to do, and we don’t do what we aren’t supposed to do.
Maturity and flawlessness are other definitions that apply, as well, since when we are perfect in our walk with Christ, we will be both mature and flawless. However, even if you are not completely mature yet, you can still be flawless today, or at least for the next four hours. And if you mess up, God has given us the Sacrament of Reconciliation, to get us back into the game again - we simply confess what we did and receive the Absolution, and that sin is gone from our souls.
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jmcrae
Guest
Okay. So tell me again how we cannot be perfect. Obviously, St. Paul expected his followers to become perfect.
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SHW
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1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
If we truly love God, then we will want/desire to keep/obey His commandments. Love of God is obedience to God.** If we truly love God, then we will not think that it is a burden to obey His commandments.** We will want to obey Him. We will hate sin because it offends Him.
**He only saves those who love/obey Him. **
Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
2 Thessalonians 1:8
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Those persons who do not obey God’s commandments while they are alive on earth will reap His vengeance when they die.
1 John 2:5
But whoever keeps His word (obeys His commandments), truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
If we obey God, then His love perfects us (makes us perfect).
Revelation 3:2
Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.
What is love?
1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
**No person can enter eternal life when he dies unless he obeys God’s commandments until the end of his life. **
Matthew 24:12-13
Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
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rev_kevin
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rev_kevin
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How do you define perfect? complete, or mature or flawless.Okay. So tell me again how we cannot be perfect. Obviously, St. Paul expected his followers to become perfect.
If complete or mature then I agree. If you mean flawless then I disagree.
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jmcrae
Guest
I mean, that the final product is without flaws. (Which doesn’t preclude erasures and revisions along the way. Our sins get erased in the Confessional.)
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rev_kevin
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Good we agree.
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jmcrae
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StevieD
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Mark 13:13 “…but he who stands firm TO THE END will be saved”. One among many texts showing that ‘once saved’ is a false and very dangerous optimism. We need to run the race to the end, with Paul, to receive the crown.
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rev_kevin
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To believe in Jesus and endure to the end will take perseverance because our faith will be challenged and opposed. Severe trials will shift true Christians from fair-weather believers/ Enduring to the end does not earn salvation for us but marks us as already saved. The assurance of our salvation will keep us strong in times of persecution.
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StevieD
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Sorry you are not yet saved yet and the NT is perfecly clear on the subject. You are a victim of Luther’s fear of hell and his novelties following from that and unknown to the early Church. I suggest that you read today’s Gospel. Works/love plus faith is essential to being saved and that, of course, can only be proved over time.
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rev_kevin
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Now I or we are victims. Now you might not be saved but I am. I have given my beliefs on this in other posts. Now if the NT is perfectly clear please provide me with Scripture and verses.
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GodLovesTheSpek
Guest
I suspect that the discussion has become confused because of perception of words.
I think the words as perceived by most Protestants:
Saved ~ Jesus died by human sin, paid for all sin by his death for all time, thus salvation is possible.
Salvation ~ Invited to join God in Heaven after death.
As people we are advised by God to accept Jesus’ victory over death.
When we sin (by our free will) we deny that victory and embrace death (Satan).
When we repent (by God’s grace) we reaffirm and re-accept the victory and embrace life (Jesus).
While we are still alive we still have God’s Grace to choose repentance.
If we die perfectly repentant, in a state of grace, washed of all sins then salvation is the outcome of Final Judgment.
My (others?) views:
Now what is repentance? Conceptually, it is being truly apologetic for one’s sins, a true desire to make amends and try to do it, and a desire to reform to be more Christ-like.
As a Catholic, the process to repent is called Reconciliation. Imperfect humans can repent by:
I think the words as perceived by most Protestants:
Saved ~ Jesus died by human sin, paid for all sin by his death for all time, thus salvation is possible.
Salvation ~ Invited to join God in Heaven after death.
As people we are advised by God to accept Jesus’ victory over death.
When we sin (by our free will) we deny that victory and embrace death (Satan).
When we repent (by God’s grace) we reaffirm and re-accept the victory and embrace life (Jesus).
While we are still alive we still have God’s Grace to choose repentance.
If we die perfectly repentant, in a state of grace, washed of all sins then salvation is the outcome of Final Judgment.
My (others?) views:
Now what is repentance? Conceptually, it is being truly apologetic for one’s sins, a true desire to make amends and try to do it, and a desire to reform to be more Christ-like.
As a Catholic, the process to repent is called Reconciliation. Imperfect humans can repent by:
- Imperfect Reconciliation. A reconciliation by which we recognize our imperfect nature and reveal, as best we think we can, sins to a priest perhaps repenting out of only much love and/or maybe just a fear of God. Fear of God is enough for Imperfect Reconciliation and it does not require a perfect recollection of committed sins or perfect love. (in the process we might forget some sins: a so-called “white lie”, maybe taken the Lord’s name in vain three months ago, think some sins are not bad when they truly are, or withhold sins due to pride). A priest has the authority given to him by Jesus to forgive all sins for Him, paid for by Him even if not recalled perfectly – according to His instruction. Who amongst us is imperfect?
- Perfect Reconciliation. This process is extremely difficult for a Catholic and maybe anyone: One can reconcile with God individually. The person must do so out of perfect love for God (fear of God is not sufficient) confessing each and every committed sin (not just most sins and it requires the person to know exactly what is a sin) and perfect desire to reject all sin and become like Christ. If everything is not done perfectly the reconciliation is invalid. Anyone brave or perfect (deceived?) enough to try or depend upon this process? Better get it right the first time because it may be the only time. Who amongst us is perfect?
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