A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

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PRmerger said:
What is “saving faith”? That’s not a Catholic term, so if you could define it I’d be obliged.

In fact, is “saving faith” used in Scripture? If so, could you cite chapter and verse, please.
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The faith in Christ that saves a person from hell. As opposed the professing faith in Christ that condemns mens souls to hell.
 
Masters_Servant said:
The faith in Christ that saves a person from hell. As opposed the professing faith in Christ that condemns mens souls to hell.
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So you’re looking for examples in Scripture of someone who was saved from hell? How would you know if he’s saved from hell? :confused:
 
PRmerger said:
So you’re looking for examples in Scripture of someone who was saved from hell? How would you know if he’s saved from hell? :confused:
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Go back and read the last page or two of the thread, then come back. You off in a wrong direction by evidence of your question/comment.
 
Masters_Servant said:
Go back and read the last page or two of the thread, then come back. You off in a wrong direction by evidence of your question/comment.
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Ok. Did that.

Still have my questions: how do you know if someone was saved from hell?

Also, where is the term “saving faith” in Scripture? (As I said, I’ve just never heard of faith described in that term–and, I’ve never read it in the Bible, but perhaps I’ve missed it).

And another question: is there any person in Scripture that we know for sure was saved except for the thief on the cross?
 
PRmerger said:
Yes! If 2 people are married and never unfaithful, there is no grounds for divorce.

Now, look at the human condition and you will see that sin abounds in our lives. We, clearly, are unfaithful and have divorced ourselves from our Beloved.
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According to that standard then, every time I am “unfaithful” then I would need to be remarried.

An unfaithful act would be denying Christ and chasing after some other idol to worship.
 
PRmerger said:
Ok. Did that.

Still have my questions: how do you know if someone was saved from hell?

Also, where is the term “saving faith” in Scripture? (As I said, I’ve just never heard of faith described in that term–and, I’ve never read it in the Bible, but perhaps I’ve missed it).

And another question: is there any person in Scripture that we know for sure was saved except for the thief on the cross?
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See below.
 
Xavierlives said:
According to that standard then, every time I am “unfaithful” then I would need to be remarried.

An unfaithful act would be denying Christ and chasing after some other idol to worship.
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Yes, exactly, XL. 👍

That’s exactly what the CC teaches and why you need to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation whenever you’ve been unfaithful to your Beloved Spouse.
 
Xavierlives said:
Please read disclaimers at the bottom.

A case for “Once Saved, Always Saved”
I. Salvation is the covenant, our contract with God
A. God’s plan for salvation is a contract.
  1. God makes the offer
  2. The person makes the acceptance.
  3. We can talk about the bargain for exchange, (but I don’t think it is necessary for the argument).
    B. Once in force, the contract can be breached
  4. God will never breach
  5. Your free will, gives you the right to breach.
  6. Details of the breach: When a Christian is not holding up their part of the bargain.
  7. Remedies for breach
    a. Advocates for Christians losing their salvation would have it that God terminates the contract and cuts free the breaching party. (Rescission)
    b. Advocates for once saved, always saved say that God (Specific Performance)
    c. Damages
    C. What if…
  8. God does rescind our contract with him?
    a. He would be a fool to offer it again.
    b. No breached party ever returns to make new contracts with a breached party.
  9. God demands specific performance?
    a. He is remaining solid in his side and forcing the Christian to follow through.
    b. Specific performance can only be accomplished by a specific party.
  10. God seeks damages?
    a. All of our breaches will eventually be answered through damages.
    D. God consistently shows his blessings are free-flowing for a contracting party following the terms of the contract.
II. A Man with Two Sons
A. The Prodigal Son
  1. Younger took his inheritance and left.
    a. Squandered
    b. Lived it up.
    c. Son returns and says, “I do not deserve to be called your son”
    d. Father replies, “kill the fatted calf and let us eat for this my son was dead and is alive again.
    B. Older stayed and worked.
  2. Obeyed the father.
    a. Was angered at the return.
    b. He worked and did his job and now his son is reeping.
    c. The father scolds the older son, “You will receive your inheritance, but today, you brother has returned.”
  3. Received inheritance
III. Some affirmation of our agreement
A. John 4:13-14 – You will thirst no more.
B. John 6:32-35 – You will hunger no more.
C. John 8:12 – I am the light.
D. John 10:27-30 – Jesus gives eternal life, that no one can snatch from His hand.
E. John 14:6-7 – no one come to the Father but by me.
F. Romans 5:20-21 – the law exists and sin abounds, but grace forgives.

Disclaimers:
  1. Someone stated OSAS hasn’t been adequately discussed (which I find hard to believe on this forum, but here is a case for it.)
  2. As a former debate teacher, I have learned you must be able to argue from any angle. I am not saying what I personally believe but I am willing to defend OSAS for a while.
  3. I have an overwhelming caseload right now, and while I would like to answer to CAF 24/7 it will most likely be quite a bit less.
  4. I typed this in word so the cut and paste left this format. The outline form because I thought it would be easier to pick apart. (and easier to type).
  5. Any OSAS proponents out there please feel free to help.
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**A contract requires considerations from BOTH sides. God’s consideration is eternal life…Our consideration is a life of sanctity & dedication to Him.

So, until you have fulfilled YOUR part of the contract, don’t ask nor expect for the other and falsely accuse God of unfaithfulness.**
 
PRmerger said:
:confused:

Who is an example in Scripture of someone we know is in heaven, saved from hell by their “saving faith” (besides St. Dismas, AKA the Good Thief)?
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hmm… so the Good Thief isn’t enough?

I guess I can point to the entire chapter of Hebrews 11:

1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.

23By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.

31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[f]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

All of these people had a saving faith that was absent Christ’s message, so how can I, with Christ’s message I not be at a greater position have a saving faith?
 
Xavierlives said:
hmm… so the Good Thief isn’t enough?

I guess I can point to the entire chapter of Hebrews 11:

1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.

23By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.

31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

All of these people had a saving faith that was absent Christ’s message, so how can I, with Christ’s message I not be at a greater position have a saving faith?
Click to expand...
 
Xavierlives said:
hmm… so the Good Thief isn’t enough?

I guess I can point to the entire chapter of Hebrews 11:

1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.

23By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.

31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[f]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

All of these people had a saving faith that was absent Christ’s message, so how can I, with Christ’s message I not be at a greater position have a saving faith?
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Interesting. I was not aware that there were Protestant denominations that claimed that they knew who was in heaven.

I stand corrected.

These people had faith that saved them from hell before Jesus’ atoning death?
 
PRmerger said:
Interesting. I was not aware that there were Protestant denominations that claimed that they knew who was in heaven.

I stand corrected.

These people had faith that saved them from hell before Jesus’ atoning death?
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I’m not claiming to know who is in heaven. The author of Hebrews seems to be though. But you wanted more than Dismas, so I showed this long list of people named and unnamed, before and after Christ who had faith and it would seem they are occupying a favorable spot with God.

As to the Christ’s atonement, the list mentions people after Christ (but they are unnamed). As for how those before Christ factor in, I say, God worked it out. Otherwise Hebrews 11 would be false.
 
Mosacked said:
**A contract requires considerations from BOTH sides. God’s consideration is eternal life…Our consideration is a life of sanctity & dedication to Him.

So, until you have fulfilled YOUR part of the contract, don’t ask nor expect for the other and falsely accuse God of unfaithfulness.**
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You know there is a substitute for consideration… promissory estoppel, but that might be a little too deep into contracts law to really discuss.

Anyway, I think I made a case for consideration on both parts somewhere around post #100.
 
Xavierlives said:
You know there is a substitute for consideration… promissory estoppel, but that might be a little too deep into contracts law to really discuss.

Anyway, I think I made a case for consideration on both parts somewhere around post #100.
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Short-changing God and then inserting your own terms of ‘promissory estoppel’ is not exactly contractual consideration.

Its called delusion.
 
Mosacked said:
Short-changing God and then inserting your own terms of ‘promissory estoppel’ is not exactly contractual consideration.

Its called delusion.
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I’m not. I was just saying there are things that take the place of consideration. But the consideration issue has been covered a while ago.

And promissory estoppel is really the principle that a promise made without consideration may nonetheless be enforced to prevent injustice if the promisor should have reasonably expected the promisee to rely on the promise and if the promise did actually rely on the promise to his or her detriment.

Therefore, while maybe there is no consideration for God, there is for us, and we began to act upon the contract, therefore, promissory estoppel applies.

But again, I think the case is made without it. I think there is consideration on both sides.
 
Xavierlives said:
I’m not. I was just saying there are things that take the place of consideration. But the consideration issue has been covered a while ago.
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Nothing can replace consideration. Replacing it with another means it is no longer part of contract. Anyone who does that is basically removing themselves from the covenant.

Can I say I’ll exchange my Samsung LED TV, serial number 111 with your Pioneer Home Entertainment serial number 222. But when your Pioneer arrived at my house it has a serial number 666?

Obviously not. You want my contract, you STICK with the terms of my contract. Otherwise you can go elsewhere.

.
 
Mosacked said:
Nothing can replace consideration. Replacing it with another means it is no longer part of contract. Anyone who does that is basically removing themselves from the covenant.

Can I say I’ll exchange my Samsung LED TV, serial number 111 with your Pioneer Home Entertainment serial number 222. But when your Pioneer arrived at my house it has a serial number 666?

Obviously not. You want my contract, you STICK with the terms of my contract. Otherwise you can go elsewhere.

.
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But that isn’t consideration.

Consideration is something bargained for and received by a promisor from the promisee.
 
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