A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[Xavierlives]

PART 2 -

Xavierlives, its more than sawdust and a tree trunk, it was the word of Jesus Christ that you mixed, but I understand in your heat to prove yourself right, you proved yourself wrong, and your true colors showed. However, I do accept your apology

As for “proving myself wrong” we still must not be on the same page here. If, in my mistake I make a point that we are told to remove the error from ourselves before we remove the error from our brother, the part that doesn’t really change is, even with my mistake, the analogy showed an error in one’s self. (The only confusing part for anyone not keeping up with our dialogue is, I made a mistake, while we were taking about errors). Upon my correction, the illustration should be magnified. Nothing is lost and everything is gained. And we still get to talk about judging ourselves and judging our brothers.

Now, I don’t know if you have been keeping up with the other posts on the thread, so I am going to point out:

Let me try it this way. I have seen a lot of repeat offenders in my profession. These are people who are caught doing crimes and told, “you are wrong.” Even in jail, some continue the charade. Some acknowledge their crimes, accept there punishment, but when they get out they return to their crimes.

What does Christ want from us? He wants us to not just acknowledge our crime but change our ways. He consistently says, “Go and sin no more.” That is an internal check upon ourselves. We need that internal judgment * so we change.*

Christ doesn’t want a bunch of repeat offenders. He does not pardon us for us to race back to sin. He pardons us and we reform ourselves for him.

And I try to even expand it more with:

Let me take another crack at it.

I am not saying I am the only judge of my heart. When I talk about “judging myself” per se, I am trying to say that I am being keenly aware of the Holy Spirit and the convictions placed upon me. They can come from a variety of directions. Someone here might say, “Hey, XL. You are being a bit overbearing.” Then the Holy Spirit takes a whack at me too. Eventually, if the Holy Spirit says, “You are being overbearing” and I do nothing, then I am sinning. There is no “thou shalt not be overbearing” in the Bible but the Holy Spirit has the authority to convict me. I am under that judgement within my heart. It is not “me” acting as judge, but me relenting to that judgment. Then action is required of me. I should listen to the Holy Spirit and say, “Yuppers, I was way off there. I need to stop doing that. I need to ask for forgiveness to God. I need to ask for forgiveness if I hurt another.” Then I am reformed. I have repented.

This might be where we are having our miscommunication. I am not saying I am my judge. I am saying the judgment I impose is through my personal acceptance of the Holy Spirit’s conviction.

In the alternative, a person who does not soften their heart to the Holy Spirit does the opposite and rejects the conviction and hardens their heart.

Xavierlives, I am going to ask you a question the question is: did Jesus Christ come in the flesh or in Spirit?

I’m not sure how this fits in, but the book of John says the Word was made flesh.

Xavierlives, The Beauty is, you will see how not valid is OSAS when you come face to face with Jesus Christ, and only then you will see how WRONG you were from the get-go!

I am not sure you have understood the entirety of the thread here. I have previously stated OSAS is not my belief. I was taught at a Baptist School and am well aware of the teachings. Personally I think no man can judge the heart of another and say “you are saved.” You can see signs of it. You can observe another’s life, but you cannot know their heart as Christ knows their heart. Someone on another thread stated that OSAS has not been discussed on this board. Knowing a bit on the subject, I stepped up to the plate to have a discussion. At some point, the discussion will become stale and we will all go back to our understanding.

It is as our dialogue here. I do not know your heart and you do not know mine, Christ knows both and will judge us accordingly.

 

[Xavierlives]

Fine, except for one thing:
Verse 27 says that Judas was not overwhelmed by Satan until AFTER the foot washing and AFTER he took the morsel and dipped it in the dish. You don’t want to discuss this because it defeats your position.

---

By the way, the Greek words for “wash” used here are “louo” (to wash, to clean) and “nipto” (to wash). There is no allusion to baptism.
If they (the Apostles)** were baptized – this happened at an earlier time. That’s why Jesus calls them “clean” already, but are in need of foot-washing, as was customary. Jesus is showing them how to serve one another.

---

As for your claim of requiring a “new immersion”, Baptism is a one-time event. Not only is it never needed again – to repeat Baptism makes a mockery of it. This is the Donatist Heresy that was defeated at the beginning of the 5th Century.

Hmm… I left my notes and my Bible at home, but just from memory, I thought verse two said Satan had overwhelmed Judas. I’ll look it up online and get back in a bit.

The way I was trying to apply it was Jesus talks of “you are already clean.” This might be a physical comment, but he is likely talking spiritually. The translated word for the “cleaning” references a bath, as in you have been immersed, dunked, put into water. The Latin used in the washing of the feet is a slightly different notation. It is, the water is put on you.

Where this whole line of reasoning is quickly defeated is OSAS is basically saying that bath is sufficient, nothing else is required, but quite to the contrary, Christ teaches, we will get dirty while we live in this world and we will need the water give us a washing.

Then in light of Judas, being cleansed and then going out and sinning again, The only argument is really the truth. Judas rejected Christ. He rejected his teachings. He wanted Christ to be a worldly leader where he could gain wealth from being a part of the movement. When he realized that Christ was not here to rule the earth, Judas decided to cash out his chips and take the 30 pieces of silver.

 

[jmcrae]

Ok, then. The last thing I was thinking about was John 13.

I am not making any guarantee that this is going to make sense the first go round, because it has been stewing for less that 24 hours.

Christ is gathered together with the twelve disciples. He disrobes to clothes that a slave or servant might wear. There is a battle brewing in the room and eleven of the thirteen have no clue what is going on. Peter first says, You will not wash my feet. Christ says, If I don’t wash your feet than you have no part in me. Then Peter says, Well, if you must, then wash all. Christ responds,You need but your feet washed. You have already been cleansed. He also notes that one is not clean (Judas). He proceeds to wash their feet, including Judas who has already been overwhelmed by Satan.

Now while we can discuss Judas, Satan, and Christ, I’d rather not because it doesn’t really do to my point.

But my point is the process of washing, which he states they will understand later. So to try to understand it I went to the Latin.

In verse 5, the the word for wash (their feet) is lavare.
In verse 10, the word was in “he that is washed” is lavet.

Now honestly I make very subtle distinctions. They are the same root which is to wash. There is slight difference between those but apparently the Greek (which I do not read) has the words meaning a bit more. The first is closer to rinse or wash, while in verse 10, it involves submerge. Now neither word is baptizo, which you can guess is baptize, but that is immerse.

So, I mention all of this to proffer that a OSAS supporter would say, they have been bathed, soaked, immersed in baptism and Christ says, they are already clean, all they need is a rinse. Whereas, if they lost their salvation, they would require a new immersion. As long as they don’t reject Christ, their baptism is valid for their cleansing.

(I already see the weakness in this and I see your arguments coming, but I will let you make them to give you the pleasure of discovery).

The only way I can make any sense of this passage is to look to the Tradition, and what does the Tradition give us? It gives us the Liturgy of Holy Thursday, and what happens there?

First, you are correct - this passage has nothing at all to do with baptism. Rather, it has something to do with the Priesthood, because what happens on Holy Thursday is, the Pope washes the feet of 12 of his priests. In the parishes. 12 men representing various ministries in the parish are called forward, and the priest washes their feet.

We are told that the significance of this is to show our “upside down hierarchy” in which, the higher you go in the Catholic Church, the more people to whom you are a servant. The Pope, indeed, is called “The Servant of the Servants of God.”

Christ, being highest of all, became a servant to the Apostles and to Peter, our first Pope.

That’s all I’ve got, but I thought I’d throw it out there.

 

[TimeToGrow]

PART 2 -

I am not sure you have understood the entirety of message here. I have previously stated this is not my belief. I was taught at a Baptist School and am well aware of the teachings. Personally I think no man can judge the heart of another and say “you are saved.” You can see signs of it. You can observe another’s life, but you cannot know their heart as Christ knows their heart.

It is as our dialogue here. I do not know your heart and you do not know mine, Christ knows both and will judge us accordingly.

Hello Xavierlives,

I haven’t read all the things that are posted.

If I may and I hope I’m not stepping on anyones toes here. May I suggest to some the a reference to the Scripture for some to read.

1 Cor 11,

Here the Apostle Paul is facing a church with some problems.He starts by acknowledgeing certain customs among the corinthians and then on traditions of the Jewish and gentile Church in general as in the whole of the Church international. One might read what he says isn’t the tradition of the Church.
He basically says that he is hearing of schisms and the Like and he basically says that most likely it is because there is heresy also. Now to some non Catholics as well as some Catholics these verses speak volumes about many things. But there are some things worth mentioning about these verses.

 First Paul is addressing heresys that are causing schism and these things have diminished the truly faithful. Contention and debate have diministed things, their unity was suffering.. But as you get further down the scripture how is Paul Going to solve the Problem?

The Eucharist!

He begins to explain what he is delivering and he warns the heretics. Whoever they are? Of the dangers of taking Christ Body unworthily because of what it did to Judaist. One things should be noted that these Verses are some of the primary teaching of the Catholic faith about the Real Presence and not figurative. Judaist Betrail was from taking Christ body unworthily. And the Corinthians here all were baptized. There is no once saved always save and the Eucharist in the tradition of the Church is what pionts that out. Although Sin can surely cause the faithful much harm. Hersey and schism were far worse in the light of scripture. No matter how sinnless we can be as Paul demonstrates the Body od Christ in the end decided who those were and scripture records what the affect of taking the Eucharist unworthily…

Peace and God Bless

 

[Xavierlives]

Hello Xavierlives,

I haven’t read all the things that are posted.

If I may and I hope I’m not stepping on anyones toes here. May I suggest to some the a reference to the Scripture for some to read.

1 Cor 11,

Here the Apostle Paul is facing a church with some problems.He starts by acknowledgeing certain customs among the corinthians and then on traditions of the Jewish and gentile Church in general as in the whole of the Church international. One might read what he says isn’t the tradition of the Church.
He basically says that he is hearing of schisms and the Like and he basically says that most likely it is because there is heresy also. Now to some non Catholics as well as some Catholics these verses speak volumes about many things. But there are some things worth mentioning about these verses.

 First Paul is addressing heresys that are causing schism and these things have diminished the truly faithful. Contention and debate have diministed things, their unity was suffering.. But as you get further down the scripture how is Paul Going to solve the Problem?

The Eucharist!

He begins to explain what he is delivering and he warns the heretics. Whoever they are? Of the dangers of taking Christ Body unworthily because of what it did to Judaist. One things should be noted that these Verses are some of the primary teaching of the Catholic faith about the Real Presence and not figurative. Judaist Betrail was from taking Christ body unworthily. And the Corinthians here all were baptized. There is no once saved always save and the Eucharist in the tradition of the Church is what pionts that out. Although Sin can surely cause the faithful much harm. Hersey and schism were far worse in the light of scripture. No matter how sinnless we can be as Paul demonstrates the Body od Christ in the end decided who those were and scripture records what the affect of taking the Eucharist unworthily…

Peace and God Bless

Thank you for your words. I am trying to take what I have read here and am trying to apply it to the discussion. I guess the first thing that should be said is, I am not attempting to have this discussion about OSAS to promote a heresy (which the latter part of 1 Cor. 11 discusses). I struggled at first whether I should start this thread at all because I do not find it entirely consistent with the Bible and I do not want to lead people astray. My goal any any of these discussions is to learn (and maybe teach when I can).

Ultimately, I was lead in the direction to start the thread for two reasons.

1. I have a general working knowledge about the subject and the OSAS use in the Bible.
2. OSAS relies heavily on a faith that Christ can see our heart and judge our intent. I too share that belief. So, while some might look upon OSAS as a heresy, I cannot brand it as heresy, because I cannot look into a person’s heart. I believe only Christ has that authority to judge us. The serious drawback with OSAS is it makes it appear that someone can be baptized and then just let the good times roll (which we know is contrary to teaching). Traditionally I would say a person who believes OSAS does not believe this. It must be a true conversion and again, only Christ can judge this.

If I did not understand your statement please feel free to correct me.

 

[Xavierlives]

The only way I can make any sense of this passage is to look to the Tradition, and what does the Tradition give us? It gives us the Liturgy of Holy Thursday, and what happens there?

First, you are correct - this passage has nothing at all to do with baptism. Rather, it has something to do with the Priesthood, because what happens on Holy Thursday is, the Pope washes the feet of 12 of his priests. In the parishes. 12 men representing various ministries in the parish are called forward, and the priest washes their feet.

We are told that the significance of this is to show our “upside down hierarchy” in which, the higher you go in the Catholic Church, the more people to whom you are a servant. The Pope, indeed, is called “The Servant of the Servants of God.”

Christ, being highest of all, became a servant to the Apostles and to Peter, our first Pope.

That’s all I’ve got, but I thought I’d throw it out there.

I did not know that the Pope did this. I will say, one of the most moving moments as a teen was experiencing this during a Sunday school lesson. Our teacher, a grown man humbled himself and washed the feet of the high schoolers.

 

[fbl9]

Xavierlives, He will recognize your voice of one, that is spreading a false doctrine “OSAS” which He, is totaly against. Amen

Ufamtobie

ufamtobie:Keep in mind that Xavierlives does notsupport osas, rather Xavier is trying to agrue for it as a way of discussing the subject.

 

[TimeToGrow]

Thank you for your words. I am trying to take what I have read here and am trying to apply it to the discussion. I guess the first thing that should be said is, I am not attempting to have this discussion about OSAS to promote a heresy (which the latter part of 1 Cor. 11 discusses). I struggled at first whether I should start this thread at all because I do not find it entirely consistent with the Bible and I do not want to lead people astray. My goal any any of these discussions is to learn (and maybe teach when I can).

Ultimately, I was lead in the direction to start the thread for two reasons.

1. I have a general working knowledge about the subject and the OSAS use in the Bible.
2. OSAS relies heavily on a faith that Christ can see our heart and judge our intent. I too share that belief. So, while some might look upon OSAS as a heresy, I cannot brand it as heresy, because I cannot look into a person’s heart. I believe only Christ has that authority to judge us. The serious drawback with OSAS is it makes it appear that someone can be baptized and then just let the good times roll (which we know is contrary to teaching). Traditionally I would say a person who believes OSAS does not believe this. It must be a true conversion and again, only Christ can judge this.

If I did not understand your statement please feel free to correct me.

Hello Xaviorlives,

No I wasn’t posting against you or anything like that… It’s your thread and thought I might can show some things in a certain light. You’ll can make want you want ot out of it and I hope I haven’t offended anyone for it.

I just posted that to show that scripture can clearly demonstrate that once saved always save can be a dream for some in scripture. An to for a bonus incase some weren’t aware their is some other things like Real Presence as other things…

Peace and Godbless

PS. Don’t let me get in the way, you can tell me anytime to bug off…

 

[elvisman]

Hmm… I left my notes and my Bible at home, but just from memory, I thought verse two said Satan had overwhelmed Judas. I’ll look it up online and get back in a bit.

The way I was trying to apply it was Jesus talks of “you are already clean.” This might be a physical comment, but he is likely talking spiritually. The translated word for the “cleaning” references a bath, as in you have been immersed, dunked, put into water. The Latin used in the washing of the feet is a slightly different notation. It is, the water is put on you.

Where this whole line of reasoning is quickly defeated is OSAS is basically saying that bath is sufficient, nothing else is required, but quite to the contrary, Christ teaches, we will get dirty while we live in this world and we will need the water give us a washing.

Then in light of Judas, being cleansed and then going out and sinning again, The only argument is really the truth. Judas rejected Christ. He rejected his teachings. He wanted Christ to be a worldly leader where he could gain wealth from being a part of the movement. When he realized that Christ was not here to rule the earth, Judas decided to cash out his chips and take the 30 pieces of silver.

The Greek words used in verse 2 are ballo eis (cast into the heart of Judas). We ALL have things cast into our hearts by Satan. That is sinful temptation.
**The word used in verse 27 are eiserchomai (entered or possessed). This is where he fully succumbed to Satan.
As for washed – you are reading too much into this as the word neither words means immersed or dunked. They mean wash or clean. In fact, “nipto” means “to wash or clean as in cleaning blood out of a wound”. This doesn’t allude to immersion or dunking.

---

**We WILL need water to wash us (physically) in this world, but this by NO means is a reference to additional or multiple baptisms. I know of a Protestant Church in my community that does this whenever a person backslides. This is the heresy of Donatism that I mentioned in my last post.

---

**As for Judas – he knew and lived the truth – then later rejected it. Judas was sent out w1th the rest to cast out demons in Jesus’ name. This is a guy who, by Protestant standards was “saved” and lost it. I get tired of people in the 21st Century cutting him so much slack. **
Judas wasn’t a victim as people would have us believe – he was an apostate.

 

[jmcrae]

I did not know that the Pope did this. I will say, one of the most moving moments as a teen was experiencing this during a Sunday school lesson. Our teacher, a grown man humbled himself and washed the feet of the high schoolers.

If you ever have the opportunity to attend a Holy Thursday liturgy in a Catholic Church, avail yourself of it - it is one of my favourite liturgies of the whole Church year. :dancing:

 

[elvisman]

If you ever have the opportunity to attend a Holy Thursday liturgy in a Catholic Church, avail yourself of it - it is one of my favourite liturgies of the whole Church year. :dancing:

Last year, I had the privilege of having my feet washed at the Holy Thursday Mass at my parish by our Pastor.

 

[Xavierlives]

Elvisman,

I am going to have to bow out (or wait until March 1). I am getting swamped with work and it isn’t letting up. While reading and writing for CAF has been time well spent, I am going to have to shed it until things lighten up.

Peace to you,
XL

 

[used2Bcatholic]

Jesus said that “…they are no longer with us because they never were with us.” So, those that left Christ were never really born again or CHRISTians in the first place.

The Holy Spirit was sent to “seal” our salvation so we can have assurance of salvation (as Paul says “I tell you this so that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life.”)

 

[used2Bcatholic]

Jesus said that “…they are no longer with us because they never were with us.” So, those that left Christ were never really born again or CHRISTians in the first place.

The Holy Spirit was sent to “seal” our salvation so we can have assurance of salvation (as Paul says “I tell you this so that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life.”)

 

[elvisman]

Jesus said that “…they are no longer with us because they never were with us.” So, those that left Christ were never really born again or CHRISTians in the first place.

The Holy Spirit was sent to “seal” our salvation so we can have assurance of salvation (as Paul says “I tell you this so that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life.”)

You couldn’t be more wrong.
**Have you been *reading *the posts? **Ample proof has already been given several times to the contrary.

The entire New Testament speaks of the HOPE of salvation (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13) for those who DO God’s will (Matt. 7:21) and PERSEVERE in faith (Matt. 24:13).

**The Bible is filled with wonderful promises for those who remain faithful and endure - not guarantees.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Your first premise is WRONG. Salvation is NOT A CONTRACT.
If you want a contract that ensures your salvation, believe whatever you want.
However, if you want a living, real, good relationship with God, you must do what God wills. Otherwise, you won’t have a very good relationship with Him. If you don’t think that matters, again, believe whatever you want and do whatever you please.
You might think you have a contract with God, but you won’t have a decent relationship with Him.

Can you possibly explain what the “New Covenant” is?

Jeremiah had a great insight to it:

31 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: 34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.

The New Covenant is a “one way” agreement between God and Man, with God being the “One Way” through Jesus. The Old Covenant, a “two-way” street, was a contract between God and Man, where God held His end, but man always fell short. This New Covenant is made by God alone and He cannot not fulfill His promise or agreement. Notice how Jeremiah describes how it is accomplished, He writes: “***I will ***put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and ***I will ***be their God, and they ***shall be ***my people:”

I will, I Will & I will, the “they shall be”.

You may say to yourself, this is speaking exclusively of Israel; Is Israel also part of the New Covenant? Yes

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were {committed} under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Right. We aren’t discussing the contract. We are discussing the breach of that contract and God’s remedy to our breach.

My minor breach can be handled through prayer, because I recognize it and ask for forgiveness. Most people understand that there is a wide varierty of remedies that can be handled within our contract. (And some contracts have language within the document like… if XYZ Corp does not deliver 100 widgets by June 5, they will pay a penalty of $100). What we are talking about though is the BIG BREACH. I am not saying I am delivering 100 widgets on June 6th, I am saying I am never delivering the widgets.
We are talking about here is Christians who appear to turn, or appear to reject, or appear to be in breach.

If there was the possibility of a breach of contract, then it would have to be God who made the breach, since He is the “contract” or “New Covenant”. The reason why Salvation is entirely the work of God is because the entire New Covenant is the work of Jesus, who is God. Man plays no part in the terms of the contract except the will to either accept or reject the contract offer. Once it is truly accepted by the heart of man as determined by the “heart Reader”, then there is no possibility of a breach of contract.

This is why when God speakes about the “called” or the “elect”; it is already accomplished in His mind and therefore it shall come to pass in our world.

Anyone who claims they can reject the New Covenant or the “New Contract”; simply does not understand the nature of the contract or the nature of salvation.

 

[Masters_Servant]

You couldn’t be more wrong.
**Have you been *reading ***the posts? Ample proof has already been given several times to the contrary.

The entire New Testament speaks of the HOPE of salvation (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13) for those who DO God’s will (Matt. 7:21) and PERSEVERE in faith (Matt. 24:13).

The Bible is filled with wonderful promises for those who remain faithful and endure - *not *guarantees.

How does one do the will of God? How is one able to persevere? Is it the work of of God or Man; it cannot be both because it is a “New Covenant” made by God alone to Man. Man is not part of the contract; this is why it is a “free gift”. Those that believe they are partners of the New Covenant; IOW believe the Covenant/Contract is between God and man and man and God, not only has missed the point of the New Covenant, but show they have never entered it from God’s perspective, which is the one that actually counts toward salvation.

I am almost certain you will disagree with that; those that do disagree are not disagreeing with me, but with what God has said and what the New Covenant actually is and by whom it is enforced.

I would challenge anyone to show and prove a single person that entered into the New Covenant from God’s perspective, then was able to break that one way Covenant on their own. This would be arrogance on the part of the man because this would be saying two things: 1) God failed by breach of His own contract & 2)The New Covenant is a contract established between God to Man and, and, and between Man to God.

 

[elvisman]

How does one do the will of God? How is one able to persevere? Is it the work of of God or Man; it cannot be both because it is a “New Covenant” made by God alone to Man. Man is not part of the contract; this is why it is a “free gift”. Those that believe they are partners of the New Covenant; IOW believe the Covenant/Contract is between God and man and man and God, not only has missed the point of the New Covenant, but show they have never entered it from God’s perspective, which is the one that actually counts toward salvation.

I am almost certain you will disagree with that; those that do disagree are not disagreeing with me, but with what God has said and what the New Covenant actually is and by whom it is enforced.

I would challenge anyone to show and prove a single person that entered into the New Covenant from God’s perspective, then was able to break that one way Covenant on their own. This would be arrogance on the part of the man because this would be saying two things: 1) God failed by breach of His own contract & 2)The New Covenant is a contract established between God to Man and, and, and between Man to God.

One is only able to persevere with God’s grace. This has ALWAYS been the Catholic position.
One does the will of God by keeping his commandments (John 14:15).
**God’s grace is never forced – it is a GIFT, and a gift CAN be refused, otherwise it is NOT a gift, it’s a forced mandate.

It is more arrogant to think that you could never fall away from God, and that those who do were never part of him to begin with. People like you think that those who fall away were never true believers in the first place, but some sort of pretenders.
This goes against the very heart of the Scriptures:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:20-22
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
**For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. **

These passages speak about those who believed and lived the truth and fell away. Please show me where the Bible says that God gave his only begotten Son and whosoever believes in him will be forced to do his will and have lost their free will.

 

[Newbie2]

Case against OSAS:

Apostasy would be impossible if OSAS were true.

Why does Paul warn against apostasy?