A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[elvisman]

So the ultimate question is, who decides? Do the other tree looks around and say, “Ho-ho-ho! Look at all of my fruit!” No. The Master decides. The Master might look upon a single piece of fruit and upon sampling say, “This is the best I have ever tasted.” (Now don’t get me wrong, I am not putting words in Christ’s mouth) I am saying, He is the ultimate judge. Not the other trees.

PRECISELY**. **
NOBODY** can tell who will ultimately be saved – including the person in question (1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27).**

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The mere fact that God knows which choices you made does NOT mean that he ordains or coerces you to make those choices.

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What Jesus did on the cross REDEEMS you (paid for you) – it does not save you unless you accept his gift of grace and endure in faith (belief, surrender, works) to the end.
Your** cooperation with his grace and a lifelong endurance is what obtains salvation. The choice is yours – it is not imposed upon you.**

 

[Bill_Pick]

All of this is the Catholic teaching.

D+

 

[Bill_Pick]

Unless one commits Blasphemy? The unforgivable sin? A sin that is greater than God’s mercy?

If it is condensed then something has been taken away. The condensation does not include the unforgivable exception.

Read phil 2:12 and 1Peter 1:49,Mat10:22, mt24:13 and mk 8;35 and then give us your interpretation,Thank You

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavierlives;6244495:

We are a lot closer than you think, and always have been. But Catholics don’t always embrace the teaching that has been there all along. What I have been trying to show you is my thought is actually a bit closer to Catholic thought than many Catholics choose to follow. (not OSAS, but the Faith and Works part).

No - you still don’t have the faith and works part down. You say that we only do good works because of our faith - that is inaccurate.
ANYBODY can do good things - even an atheist. It is our faith that makes our good deeds pleasing to God. Remember - even Pharoah released the Hebrew slaves. God can make good things come out of evil men.

I am trying to be a detail oriented as I can, but I guess I am missing the mark at times with you. I will try to do a better job with the details.

You are correct. Anybody can do works. We need only to look at the Pharisees how well they pleased Christ. That is not the work we are discussing here. But since we are having a difficult time nailing down “work” lets take some time and discuss it. The Bible gives some examples of some good activities. James 1:27 says, visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction and keep himself upspotted from the world. Hmm… so if I am trying to remain pure I am working. We also see in Matt 25:43, we should clothe the naked. Now I will need to apply this to our day and place, because I have never, ever seen a naked person. But generally clothing the poor. Taking in strangers is also mentioned as well as visiting prisoners. So is this the limits of work?
Should we add anything else, because as you said, anyone can do these? What distinguished our work from their work?

Xavierlives;6244495:

A side note, I don’t think we have ever talked about “bad fruit” yet. We have talked about barren limbs and barren trees, unless I missed it, I think this is the first introduction to it.

What?? You brought it up.
YOUR words:

What I am saying is, work is obedient to faith. Work answers to faith. Work results from faith. Work is because of Faith. If I am trudging along as a Christian and you cannot see fruit (or blossoms at this time of year), then we might have a problem. As a tree, my only job is crank out the fruit. No fruit is bad.

Lol… ok. I said bad fruit, But you are taking things out of context. If we are going to have a discussion about it, first post the whole thing. I said:

What we are arguing is not new. They were arguing about 2,000 years ago. They will likely argue about it until Christ’s return. So we are not likely to solve anything. That is other than, I will again reiterate, I am not saying no works. I am not typing away at my keyboard encouraging or 10 or so readers of this thread to stop working. No, no, no. What I am saying is, work is obedient to faith. Work answers to faith. Work results from faith. Work is because of Faith. If I am trudging along as a Christian and you cannot see fruit (or blossoms at this time of year), then we might have a problem. As a tree, my only job is crank out the fruit. No fruit is bad. (Of course the other analogy we made was I am a branch, grafted onto Christ’s tree, which I equally like.) So as a tree I am cranking out the oranges. That is ideal. That is the plan for everyone. That is our goal. What if, for whatever his reasoning, I my time here is up? God is going to look to my faith and my works.

The fruit that I am discussing here is produced under Christ’s labor. No bad fruit can come from Christ’s labor. Sure there is other fruit produced not under Christ’s labor and that would be Bad Fruit, per se, but that is not what is being discussed in this post.

As I showed you - with Scriptural proof (Matt 7:17-20) - this is patently false.

So I am not being patently false. I am actually illustrating Matt. 7:17-20. Please don’t slice and dice my words, and then try to claim I am going against the Bible. If you have a question, ask.

 

[Xavierlives]

Repentance does not involve judgement but acknowldgement of wrong doing…
Are you meaning by judgement is the deciding of what one did was wrong or not?But Christ tells us whom some of these persons did in His name. and none of the previous listed do any such things.

Let me try it this way. I have seen a lot of repeat offenders in my profession. These are people who are caught doing crimes and told, “you are wrong.” Even in jail, some continue the charade. Some acknowledge their crimes, accept there punishment, but when they get out they return to their crimes.

What does Christ want from us? He wants us to not just acknowledge our crime but change our ways. He consistently says, “Go and sin no more.” That is an internal check upon ourselves. We need that internal judgment * so we change.*

Christ doesn’t want a bunch of repeat offenders. He does not pardon us for us to race back to sin. He pardons us and we reform ourselves for him.

 

[Xavierlives]

I am really not quite in agreement with your conclusion. While ridicule is not the focus of Christ’s parable, we really do need to look around us and check our bearings and make sure we are following Him - and not some illusion of Him. Let me explain.

What kind of ship captain or airline pilot after departing on their journey for a certain destination - checks their instruments once and then goes about doing something else? None. Those who think they are still on course because they set out that way - had best do some checking to make sure this is the case. If you saw trees that were not bearing fruit - I really do not think you would ridicule them - you would try to help. But, if the help were rejected - you would just continue to march - ridicule is not needed under any circumstance.

Well what I meant was more of, I don’t find myself looking over at a Catholic tree and saying, “man look at him throwing the dung around! He is really stinking the place up!” It is not my place to call over to the keeper and say, “Hey! You need more water! Hey! Less dung!” Catholics have their own caretaker. I am too busy trying to listen to my caretaker and doing my job, to be offering criticism of someone else.

Personally, the idea that the 10 virgins (or at least the wise 5) represent OSAS is a new one on me. Actually, some of the group could have wandered off, or done other things that would have rendered them unfit for the Kingdom of God. So, rather then OSAS, I would have said, “he who persevers to the end will be saved…” But, don’t forget, Matt 25 has three stories - and the 10 virgins are just the first one.

The lazy servant was given a talent - and wasted it. No OSAS message there, is there? The groups divided into those at the left and right hand of God were quite surprised that they were judged on their WORKS! (Of course, you know Paul put Faith as the basis - and Charity at the sumit of the virtues…so, the acts of Charity actually being recognized before the White Throne shouldn’t come as a surprise.

Ok, first a personal note. I find the Talents Parable to also be contrary to OSAS. And this is where I start any discussion when I am having such with a OSAS friend.

Here is how they generally reply to me: So long as I do not bury my Talent, I am fine. Burying the talent would be that rejection of Christ. So, in the Parable the master says, “You could have * at least* put your talent in the bank and gotten interest. But you rejected me. You buried me.”

So, the OSAS is really saying, the foolish servant is the unsaved person who has rejected Christ and buried him and not a follower.

 

[Xavierlives]

D+

D+ is passing!

hehe.

 

[jmcrae]

Let me try it this way. I have seen a lot of repeat offenders in my profession. These are people who are caught doing crimes and told, “you are wrong.” Even in jail, some continue the charade. Some acknowledge their crimes, accept there punishment, but when they get out they return to their crimes.

What does Christ want from us? He wants us to not just acknowledge our crime but change our ways. He consistently says, “Go and sin no more.” That is an internal check upon ourselves. We need that internal judgment * so we change.*

Christ doesn’t want a bunch of repeat offenders. He does not pardon us for us to race back to sin. He pardons us and we reform ourselves for him.

Right. Faith (accepting Christ’s pardon), and works (breaking old bad habits and creating new good habits).

 

[jmcrae]

So, the OSAS is really saying, the foolish servant is the unsaved person who has rejected Christ and buried him and not a follower.

Right. Following (works) is part of the deal.

 

[jmcrae]

D+ is passing!

hehe.

I’m okay with it - it’s not like it counts for credit, anyway.

 

[elvisman]

What distinguished our work from their work?

Our works are distinguised by our faith - BUT, not merely an intellectual acknowledgement of who God is, but a total surrender.

This is what JPII, in his dialogue with the Lutheran Church stated that he agreed with the notion that faith alone justifies us - as long as faith is defined as a surrender to the will of God, including works.

The fruit that I am discussing here is produced under Christ’s labor. No bad fruit can come from Christ’s labor. Sure there

is other fruit produced not under Christ’s labor and that would be Bad Fruit, per se, but that is not what is being discussed in this post.
That is where we differ. I have given ample evidence that a true believer in Christ CAN fall away. The person’s fruit (works) are therefore rotten because they DO have knowledge of the truth but have chosen to reject it (John 9:41).

**You seem to believe that a person can NEVER fall away from the truth - even though it is emphatically stated in Scripture (**Romans 11:22, ****Hebrews 10:26-27, **2 Peter 2:20-22). We are constantly being told in Scripture to continue to have faith and knowledge of Christ Jesus. **
If we were guaranteed, after receiving him, why would we have to be told to continue and persevere?

So I am not being patently false. I am actually illustrating Matt. 7:17-20. Please don’t slice and dice my words, and then try to claim I am going against the Bible. If you have a question, ask.

I’m not slicing and dicing. I’m taking you at your word.

 

[Xavierlives]

Our works are distinguised by our faith - BUT, not merely an intellectual acknowledgement of who God is, but a total surrender.

This is what JPII, in his dialogue with the Lutheran Church stated that he agreed with the notion that faith alone justifies us - as long as faith is defined as a surrender to the will of God, including works.

That is where we differ. I have given ample evidence that a true believer in Christ CAN fall away. The person’s fruit (works) are therefore rotten because they DO have knowledge of the truth but have chosen to reject it (John 9:41).

You seem to believe that a person can NEVER fall away from the truth - even though it is emphatically stated in Scripture (**Romans 11:22, ****Hebrews 10:26-27, **2 Peter 2:20-22). We are constantly being told in Scripture to continue to have faith and knowledge of Christ Jesus.
If we were guaranteed, after receiving him, why would we have to be told to continue and persevere?

I’m not slicing and dicing. I’m taking you at your word.

At my Bible study last night I was actually thinking about you and our discussion. Partially because in the middle of it all, I found some scripture that would be applicable, but also because before we continue, I want to make sure we both want to continue this discussion. While I am willing, at some point in the next few days I think we are likely going to get frustrated because we will likely cover some of the same ground we have previously covered. While, I don’t want to discourage you sharpening your sword, I also don’t want to dull it in the process.

You let me know, and we can take it from here (and the verses from John).

 

[Xavierlives]

Are you meaning by judgement is the deciding of what one did was wrong or not?

Let me take another crack at it.

I am not saying I am the only judge of my heart. When I talk about “judging myself” per se, I am trying to say that I am being keenly aware of the Holy Spirit and the convictions placed upon me. They can come from a variety of directions. Someone here might say, “Hey, XL. You are being a bit overbearing.” Then the Holy Spirit takes a whack at me too. Eventually, if the Holy Spirit says, “You are being overbearing” and I do nothing, then I am sinning. There is no “thou shalt not be overbearing” in the Bible but the Holy Spirit has the authority to convict me. I am under that judgement within my heart. It is not “me” acting as judge, but me relenting to that judgment. Then action is required of me. I should listen to the Holy Spirit and say, “Yuppers, I was way off there. I need to stop doing that. I need to ask for forgiveness to God. I need to ask for forgiveness if I hurt another.” Then I am reformed. I have repented.

How was that explaination?

 

[elvisman]

At my Bible study last night I was actually thinking about you and our discussion. Partially because in the middle of it all, I found some scripture that would be applicable, but also because before we continue, I want to make sure we both want to continue this discussion. While I am willing, at some point in the next few days I think we are likely going to get frustrated because we will likely cover some of the same ground we have previously covered. While, I don’t want to discourage you sharpening your sword, I also don’t want to dull it in the process.

You let me know, and we can take it from here (and the verses from John).

I have no problem continuing this discussion, my friend. That’s why I’m here at CAF.

Although, I would rather not go over the same ground that we’ve visited ad nauseam, I realize that some of it will have to be revisited for the sake of the conversation.

Let the joust continue . . .

 

[Xavierlives]

I have no problem continuing this discussion, my friend. That’s why I’m here at CAF.

**Although, I would rather not **go over the same ground that we’ve visited ad nauseam, I realize that some of it will have to be revisited for the sake of the conversation.

Let the joust continue . . .

Ok, then. The last thing I was thinking about was John 13.

I am not making any guarantee that this is going to make sense the first go round, because it has been stewing for less that 24 hours.

Christ is gathered together with the twelve disciples. He disrobes to clothes that a slave or servant might wear. There is a battle brewing in the room and eleven of the thirteen have no clue what is going on. Peter first says, You will not wash my feet. Christ says, If I don’t wash your feet than you have no part in me. Then Peter says, Well, if you must, then wash all. Christ responds,You need but your feet washed. You have already been cleansed. He also notes that one is not clean (Judas). He proceeds to wash their feet, including Judas who has already been overwhelmed by Satan.

Now while we can discuss Judas, Satan, and Christ, I’d rather not because it doesn’t really do to my point.

But my point is the process of washing, which he states they will understand later. So to try to understand it I went to the Latin.

In verse 5, the the word for wash (their feet) is lavare.
In verse 10, the word was in “he that is washed” is lavet.

Now honestly I make very subtle distinctions. They are the same root which is to wash. There is slight difference between those but apparently the Greek (which I do not read) has the words meaning a bit more. The first is closer to rinse or wash, while in verse 10, it involves submerge. Now neither word is baptizo, which you can guess is baptize, but that is immerse.

So, I mention all of this to proffer that a OSAS supporter would say, they have been bathed, soaked, immersed in baptism and Christ says, they are already clean, all they need is a rinse. Whereas, if they lost their salvation, they would require a new immersion. As long as they don’t reject Christ, their baptism is valid for their cleansing.

(I already see the weakness in this and I see your arguments coming, but I will let you make them to give you the pleasure of discovery).

 

[ufamtobie]

And how I love sweet irony. While I honestly make a mistake and invert a speck for a log you pounce in judgment.

Xavierlives, that is silly wheRe do you get your logic. Me telling you to get the Bible verse correct, is not Judging You, its just me, telling you to get it correct, I am correcting you, not judging you! lol

Not… errr… hey, Xavierlives, I think you reversed the order (but I understand your point). Nope… it is “GET BIBLE VERSE CORRECT NEXT TIME!” and “HOW DARE YOU” make mistakes.

Xavierlives, “How sweet the Irony” that you judge me that I have a major obstical impeding my sight. Remember regarding those who Judge. Amen

Ufamtobie

 

[ufamtobie]

Well if Luther and the weight of the Catholic Church are going to argue about Pœnitentiam agite

we might as well for a bit. I’ll go with Luther here. *Pœnitentiam agite * connotates of changing one’s internal state of mind. To get to that point, one must experience a little self-judgment. If I cannot look within, I cannot change my state of mind.

Now you argue the other side.

Xavierlives, I go With the Catholic Church here, Why do I go with the Catholic Church, because Jesus Christ said that the Gates of hell cannot prevail against it! Anybody who leaves the Catholic Church and starts a new one, wether it being Martin Luther or Xavierlives is slaping Jesus Christ on his face and calling Him a liar. Jesus Christ does not lie about his Catholic Church. Amen

I’m sorry. I think somehow you have not understood my point. I will try to rephrase it.

Xavierlives, He will recognize your voice of one, that is spreading a false doctrine “OSAS” which He, is totaly against. Amen

Ufamtobie

 

[elvisman]

Ok, then. The last thing I was thinking about was John 13.

I am not making any guarantee that this is going to make sense the first go round, because it has been stewing for less that 24 hours.

Christ is gathered together with the twelve disciples. He disrobes to clothes that a slave or servant might wear. There is a battle brewing in the room and eleven of the thirteen have no clue what is going on. Peter first says, You will not wash my feet. Christ says, If I don’t wash your feet than you have no part in me. Then Peter says, Well, if you must, then wash all. Christ responds,You need but your feet washed. You have already been cleansed. He also notes that one is not clean (Judas). He proceeds to wash their feet, including Judas who has already been overwhelmed by Satan.

Now while we can discuss Judas, Satan, and Christ, I’d rather not because it doesn’t really do to my point.

But my point is the process of washing, which he states they will understand later. So to try to understand it I went to the Latin.

In verse 5, the the word for wash (their feet) is lavare.
In verse 10, the word was in “he that is washed” is lavet.

Now honestly I make very subtle distinctions. They are the same root which is to wash. There is slight difference between those but apparently the Greek (which I do not read) has the words meaning a bit more. The first is closer to rinse or wash, while in verse 10, it involves submerge. Now neither word is baptizo, which you can guess is baptize, but that is immerse.

So, I mention all of this to proffer that a OSAS supporter would say, they have been bathed, soaked, immersed in baptism and Christ says, they are already clean, all they need is a rinse. Whereas, if they lost their salvation, they would require a new immersion. As long as they don’t reject Christ, their baptism is valid for their cleansing.

(I already see the weakness in this and I see your arguments coming, but I will let you make them to give you the pleasure of discovery).

Fine, except for one thing:
Verse 27 says that Judas was not overwhelmed by Satan until AFTER the foot washing and AFTER he took the morsel and dipped it in the dish. You don’t want to discuss this because it defeats your position.

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By the way, the Greek words for “wash” used here are “louo” (to wash, to clean) and “nipto” (to wash). There is no allusion to baptism. **
If they (the Apostles) were baptized – this happened at an earlier time. That’s why Jesus calls them “clean” already, but are in need of foot-washing, as was customary. Jesus is showing them how to serve one another.

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As for your claim of requiring a “new immersion”, Baptism is a one-time event. Not only is it never needed again – to repeat Baptism makes a mockery of it. This is the Donatist Heresy that was defeated at the beginning of the 5th Century.

 

[IAGladfelter]

The bottom line, guys and gals, is that Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is nothing more than a catch-phrase used by Baptists to market Calvinist Double Predestination in a positive way.

(Double) predestination as taught by John Calvin and his successors through the centuries to today is a heresy of which there is no choice but to reject. Therefore OSAS, as an expression of Calvinist Soteriology (Double Predestination) is a heresy and must be rejected.

Blessings,
Irl

 

[Xavierlives]

PART 1 –

Xavierlives, that is silly wheRe do you get your logic. Me telling you to get the Bible verse correct, is not Judging You, its just me, telling you to get it correct, I am correcting you, not judging you! Lol

Oh, I do not deny you are correcting me. And I accepted being corrected. I made a mistake and reversed mote for log, For that there is no dilemma. But if I may now correct you. The judgment you makes follows:

** Xavierlives, FYI, GET BIBLE VERSE CORRECT NEXT TIME **

Xavierlives, I Love to rain on your parade HOW DARE YOU Get the Bible Verse backwards.

Now maybe I am reading too much into your words but things like “HOW DARE YOU” and “GET BIBLE VERSE CORRECT NEXT TIME” are not corrections, they are judgments. Lets just look at your next statement for further clarification:

Xavier, yes, How dare you make a mistake mixing the Words of Jesus Christ, have you not read (Rev. 22: 18-19) For I testify to every one that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add to these things, God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book. 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from these things that are written in this book.

So I say, Sir, you know me not. You know not my life and you know not my intent, but you looked at an error and struck judgment that I intended to change the Word of God. That, dear sir, is a dangerous assertion. Nowhere was I attempting to change the word of God, I made an honest mistake and said “remove the mote from your eye, instead of remove the log from your eye.” I am neither adding nor subtracting. But this is your judgment. The Bible says, the way that you judge, so shall you be judged.

If you do not trust my words, I would ask but one thing of you: print off our little dialogue here. Show it to your priest and have a discussion about judgment.