A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[elvisman]

Welcome back to the discussion.

Yes. I wholeheartedly agree with James. I do not want you to think that I am in disagreement with James, because I have said, works follows faith. Work is obedient to faith. But, faith alone is sufficent.

You are getting closer to my assessment of potential faith driven, without works people when you mention children and mentally handicap, but I think the church would view this more in line with John 9:42 than my assessment of faith alone.

As for 1 Cor. 13, I do not disagree. Charity is the greatest. Charity overshadows her sisters every time. But Faith came first. Without faith, we wouldn’t have the youngest. (I’ll let that sink in. I have to go for a bit).

HUH??
**There you go again, twisting my words and doing some Scriptural acrobatics to make your point. ****You still don’t get it. **

I explained what true faith was. IF you agree on what I defined as true faith - then we are in agreement and you are not that far off from the truth.

BUT - if you still believe that faith is merely an intellectual ascent or acknowledgement of who Jesus is - that is NOT the faith of the Gospel. This is a DEAD faith because, as I pointed out - even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

In Galatians 5:6, Paul explains the Catholic position:
"For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love."

True faith must be in concert with works - period.

 

[Xavierlives]

Can you find the word thirity

I don’t even know what that word is.

 

[Xavierlives]

Exactly i don’t know why people find the theif on the cross as a “loop hole” We must remember that it is Christ Himself who said to the person and only to the theif on the cross did He say what He did not to anybody else standing there. Also the theif did the only “work” he was capable of which was to rebuke the other.

I am not saying it is a loophole, I am saying it is the brightline. You can’t deny it because Christ said it. And that is a huge stretch to say his “work” was rebuking. His rebuking was more of witnessing than rebuking.

No xaiver we can not make many suppostions given the words Christ spoke to the theif,“you will be with me in paradise” so it would be safe to say that the good theif did not curse when his legs were broke.But then again we look at where Christ was during the time His flesh was in the tomb St.Peter wrote to the effect that Christ was in the “prison” preaching the good news to the dead.So had the good theif committed a sin in his last moments He would still be with Jesus in “paradise” the land of the dead.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. We can be sure the words Christ spoke. It was crystal clear. Even the Church recognizes it and has a St. Dismas Feast. It is pretty clear that eventhough St. Dismas has not been canonized, he still has a role in the church.

So rebuking is work?

 

[Xavierlives]

I am sorry you feel I am somehow twisting your words. I will give it another shot to see if I understand your point (and clarify mine as well). I’m not sure how you feel this way since I mostly agreed with you.

What we are arguing is not new. They were arguing about 2,000 years ago. They will likely argue about it until Christ’s return. So we are not likely to solve anything. That is other than, I will again reiterate, I am not saying no works. I am not typing away at my keyboard encouraging or 10 or so readers of this thread to stop working. No, no, no. What I am saying is, work is obedient to faith. Work answers to faith. Work results from faith. Work is because of Faith. If I am trudging along as a Christian and you cannot see fruit (or blossoms at this time of year), then we might have a problem. As a tree, my only job is crank out the fruit. No fruit is bad. (Of course the other analogy we made was I am a branch, grafted onto Christ’s tree, which I equally like.) So as a tree I am cranking out the oranges. That is ideal. That is the plan for everyone. That is our goal. What if, for whatever his reasoning, I my time here is up? God is going to look to my faith and my
works.

You had made the statement:

Here are a few examples: When they die as a baby, or are mentally-challenged.

While I appreciate that these shall too inherit, I was simply making the statement that it is more likely they are being held blameless as found in the scripture in John 9:42. Simple enough. No acrobatics. No twisting. I was just applying Christ’s words to your example. (I thought it as a friendly connection). Yes, no works are required.

Ok. Now to your Catholic position:

“For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.”

Again, I am not denying works. Let no man say I am denying works. I will say it yet again, Work is obedient to faith and we can add through love. I thought that was understood, but if it helps clarify it, lets put it in there. Work is obedient to faith through love.

Can we agree to that?

 

[fbl9]

I am sorry you feel I am somehow twisting your words. I will give it another shot to see if I understand your point (and clarify mine as well). I’m not sure how you feel this way since I mostly agreed with you.

What we are arguing is not new. They were arguing about 2,000 years ago. They will likely argue about it until Christ’s return. So we are not likely to solve anything. That is other than, I will again reiterate, I am not saying no works. I am not typing away at my keyboard encouraging or 10 or so readers of this thread to stop working. No, no, no. What I am saying is, work is obedient to faith. Work answers to faith. Work results from faith. Work is because of Faith. If I am trudging along as a Christian and you cannot see fruit (or blossoms at this time of year), then we might have a problem. As a tree, my only job is crank out the fruit. No fruit is bad. (Of course the other analogy we made was I am a branch, grafted onto Christ’s tree, which I equally like.) So as a tree I am cranking out the oranges. That is ideal. That is the plan for everyone. That is our goal. What if, for whatever his reasoning, I my time here is up? God is going to look to my faith and my
works.

You had made the statement:

While I appreciate that these shall too inherit, I was simply making the statement that it is more likely they are being held blameless as found in the scripture in John 9:42. Simple enough. No acrobatics. No twisting. I was just applying Christ’s words to your example. (I thought it as a friendly connection). Yes, no works are required.

Ok. Now to your Catholic position:

Again, I am not denying works. Let no man say I am denying works. I will say it yet again, Work is obedient to faith and we can add through love. I thought that was understood, but if it helps clarify it, lets put it in there. Work is obedient to faith through love.

Can we agree to that?

Just as works with no faith is of no avail, so is faith without works…Remember the parable of the man hiring workers to work in his field/harvest. Now it did not matter what time they where hired they all worked at harvesting the crop.

Doing works though does notrequire faith…to do them,faith is why we do works.

 

[ufamtobie]

I hate to rain on your parade, but Matthew 7 goes on to say, remove the speck from your eye before you remove the log from your neighbor’s. So in fact the Bible does

call on us to judge ourselves (probably more harshly than others). Xavierlives, FYI, GET BIBLE VERSE CORRECT NEXT TIME

Xavierlives, I Love to rain on your parade:thumbsup: HOW DARE YOU Get the Bible Verse backwards. Matt 7: 5) it goes like this, (Matt 7: 5) Hypocrite! Take the **PLANK **out of your own eye first, and then You will see clearly enough to take the **SPLINTER **out of your brother’s eye.

Xavierlives, Wrong again, Matt 7: 5 is not telling us to Judge ourselves, it is telling us to examine ourselves! FYI Examining ourselves is different from Judging ourselves. There is Only One Judge and that is Jesus Christ who condemns and who saves.

Hmm… mine says repent.

Not everyone like the Baha’i who believe in Christ? Or the Muslims who acknowledge Jesus? Or the Mormons who follow a false prophet? Or the Jews who do follow God but not Christ? Who do you think he means?

Xavierlives, are you judging these People the Bahai, Muslims, or Mormons, or the Jews? Remember thou shalt not Judge! Have you not read Scripture where it says in: Matt 21: 3131 Which of the two did the father’s will? They say to him: The first. Jesus saith to them: Amen I say to you, that the publicans and the harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you.

I dare say you should.

Xavvierlives, do you believe you are better than Baha’i, Muslims, Mormons, Jews? I DARE SAY WE ARE ALL SINNERS!

Oh Yeah, please feel free to write back but don’t twist my words around to fit your agenda, you have been doing this here and there, and it looks silly.

Ufamtobie

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavierlives, FYI, GET BIBLE VERSE CORRECT NEXT TIME

Xavierlives, I Love to rain on your parade HOW DARE YOU Get the Bible Verse backwards. Matt 7: 5) it goes like this, (Matt 7: 5) Hypocrite! Take the PLANK out of your own eye first, and then You will see clearly enough to take the SPLINTER out of your brother’s eye.

And how I love sweet irony. While I honestly make a mistake and invert a speck for a log you pounce in judgment.

Not… errr… hey, Xavierlives, I think you reversed the order (but I understand your point). Nope… it is “GET BIBLE VERSE CORRECT NEXT TIME!” and “HOW DARE YOU” make mistakes.

Regardless. I apologize for reversing sawdust with tree trunk.

The beauty is, well, nothing changes, because my point was valid at the get-go. You must remove the major obstacle impeding your eyesight, before you think about removing the minuscule particle in your brothers. This would require a little self-examination on your part, a little judgment.

And of course we can’t forgetIn quo enim judicio judicaveritis, judicabimini : et in qua mensura mensi fueritis, remetietur vobis.

For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

[Xavierlives]

Reppent? Again, when one repents one is not judging themselves one is examining their Conscious and repents from what he or she has done wrong. Amen

Well if Luther and the weight of the Catholic Church are going to argue about Pœnitentiam agite we might as well for a bit. I’ll go with Luther here. *Pœnitentiam agite * connotates of changing one’s internal state of mind. To get to that point, one must experience a little self-judgment. If I cannot look within, I cannot change my state of mind.

Now you argue the other side.

Xavvierlives, do you believe you are better than Baha’i, Muslims, Mormons, Jews? I DARE SAY WE ARE ALL SINNERS!

Oh Yeah, please feel free to write back but don’t twist my words around to fit your agenda, you have been doing this here and there, and it looks silly.

Ufamtobie

I’m sorry. I think somehow you have not understood my point. I will try to rephrase it.

You used a favorite verse of Catholics which is “not all who say, Lord, Lord…” And again, I was trying to create some common ground. When the time of Judgment rolls around, I, like you, think there will be some people crying “Lord, Lord.” The Baha’i have a portion of their faith that acknowledges Christ. They might be crying, “Lord, Lord” didn’t we acknowledge you as a prophet? The Muslims will say, “Lord, Lord” didn’t we acknowledge you as Messiah? The Mormons will say, “Lord, Lord” didn’t we name our Church after you? The Jews will say, “Lord, Lord” did we follow the law?

Nowhere was I making a claim to be better. I am claiming that when I say, “Lord, Lord” he will recognize my voice.

 

[elvisman]

I am sorry you feel I am somehow twisting your words. I will give it another shot to see if I understand your point (and clarify mine as well). I’m not sure how you feel this way since I mostly agreed with you.

What we are arguing is not new. They were arguing about 2,000 years ago. They will likely argue about it until Christ’s return. So we are not likely to solve anything. That is other than, I will again reiterate, I am not saying no works. I am not typing away at my keyboard encouraging or 10 or so readers of this thread to stop working. No, no, no. What I am saying is, work is obedient to faith. Work answers to faith. Work results from faith. Work is because of Faith. If I am trudging along as a Christian and you cannot see fruit (or blossoms at this time of year), then we might have a problem. As a tree, my only job is crank out the fruit. No fruit is bad. (Of course the other analogy we made was I am a branch, grafted onto Christ’s tree, which I equally like.) So as a tree I am cranking out the oranges. That is ideal. That is the plan for everyone. That is our goal. What if, for whatever his reasoning, I my time here is up? God is going to look to my faith and my
works.

You had made the statement:

While I appreciate that these shall too inherit, I was simply making the statement that it is more likely they are being held blameless as found in the scripture in John 9:42. Simple enough. No acrobatics. No twisting. I was just applying Christ’s words to your example. (I thought it as a friendly connection). Yes, no works are required.

Ok. Now to your Catholic position:

Again, I am not denying works. Let no man say I am denying works. I will say it yet again, Work is obedient to faith and we can add through love. I thought that was understood, but if it helps clarify it, lets put it in there. Work is obedient to faith through love.

Can we agree to that?

Again** – if you are saying that faith means a life of works and that is the only real faith, then, yes – we agree. I would then say to you, “Congratulations, you have embraced the Catholic position.”**

---

As for there being no bad fruit – you’re wrong. I’m not saying this – Jesus is:
Matt 7:17-20
**Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. **
**A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. **
**Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. **So by their fruits you will know them.

---

**That being said - it hasn’t shed any light on how you arrive at the belief (even though you’re just playing devil’s advocate) in OSAS. If anything - it bolsters the Catholic position that OSAS is Scripturally untenable.

 

[fbl9]

Well if Luther and the weight of the Catholic Church are going to argue about Pœnitentiam agite we might as well for a bit. I’ll go with Luther here. *Pœnitentiam agite * connotates of changing one’s internal state of mind. To get to that point, one must experience a little self-judgment. If I cannot look within, I cannot change my state of mind.

Repentance does not involve judgement but acknowldgement of wrong doing…
Are you meaning by judgement is the deciding of what one did was wrong or not?

Now you argue the other side.

I’m sorry. I think somehow you have not understood my point. I will try to rephrase it.

You used a favorite verse of Catholics which is “not all who say, Lord, Lord…” And again, I was trying to create some common ground. When the time of Judgment rolls around, I, like you, think there will be some people crying “Lord, Lord.” The Baha’i have a portion of their faith that acknowledges Christ. They might be crying, “Lord, Lord” didn’t we acknowledge you as a prophet? The Muslims will say, “Lord, Lord” didn’t we acknowledge you as Messiah? The Mormons will say, “Lord, Lord” didn’t we name our Church after you? The Jews will say, “Lord, Lord” did we follow the law?

Nowhere was I making a claim to be better. I am claiming that when I say, “Lord, Lord” he will recognize my voice.

But Christ tells us whom some of these persons did in His name. and none of the previous listed do any such things.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Elvisman,

Thank you for including those who are mentally challenged. Too often we forget about these individuals.

God bless

Answer:
There are many ways this can happen.
Here are a few examples: When they die as a baby, or are mentally-challenged. Also, when they repent on their death bead.

Remember - Faith (believing) is not a mere intellectual ascent of acknowledgement. James 2:19 tells us that even the demons believe in God and tremble. 1 Cor. 13 tells us that faith isn’t even the greatest virtue - LOVE is. Love is DOING - not simply believing. James 2:20 tells us that faith without works is DEAD.
You must DO.

No - faith, for a Christian entails surrendering to the word and will of God. That means we must believe in everything he said and not making up our own human traditions as the various Protestant denominations have.

 

[Xavierlives]

Again** – if you are saying that faith means a life of works and that is the only real faith, then, yes – we agree. I would then say to you, “Congratulations, you have embraced the Catholic** position.”

---

We are a lot closer than you think, and always have been. But Catholics don’t always embrace the teaching that has been there all along. What I have been trying to show you is my thought is actually a bit closer to Catholic thought than many Catholics choose to follow. (not OSAS, but the Faith and Works part).

As for there being no bad fruit – you’re wrong. I’m not saying this – Jesus is:
Matt 7:17-20
Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
**Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. **So by their fruits you will know them.

A side note, I don’t think we have ever talked about “bad fruit” yet. We have talked about barren limbs and barren trees, unless I missed it, I think this is the first introduction to it.

With that said, before get to the burning of trees we see Luke 13:6-9 (dealing with… none other than repentance):

The Master came around to a fig tree and found it had no fruit. And he said, “Why is this taking up space?” The Farm worker said to the Lord, “Master, give it another season. Let me nurture it. And lets see what happens.” (of course this is my paraphrasing).

If it fails to repent and change its ways, it shall be cut down and burned. But for now, give it some time. There is potential.

---

That being said - it hasn’t shed any light on how you arrive at the belief (even though you’re just playing devil’s advocate) in OSAS. If anything - it *bolsters *the Catholic position that OSAS is Scripturally untenable.

This time we give the tree is the OSAS position. Nothing more.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Again** – if you are saying that faith means a life of works and that is the only real faith, then, yes – we agree. I would then say to you, “Congratulations, you have embraced the Catholic** position.”
** **bolsters

the Catholic position that OSAS is Scripturally untenable.

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

---

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Xavierlives,

I have a question on the last section of your post.

The Master came around to a fig tree and found it had no fruit. And he said, “Why is this taking up space?” The Farm worker said to the Lord, “Master, give it another season. Let me nurture it. And lets see what happens.” (of course this is my paraphrasing).

If it fails to repent and change its ways, it shall be cut down and burned. But for now, give it some time. There is potential.

This time we give the tree is the OSAS position. Nothing more.

This is an interesting analogy you are providing here, Xavierlives. And, I am really trying to grasp what you are saying.

If the idea is that OSAS has the potential to be a viable doctrine, it effectively has to be redefined in such a manner that it is but a shadow of its former (heretical) self… For example, if we were to define OSAS such that prior to the Christ coming to earth none were saved (not counting the anticipated merits) and after Christ’s Resurrection all of humanity - past, present and future have been purchased at a great price, as St. Paul says (1Cor 6:20), then fine. I have no trouble with that. If, however, we define OSAS as after once accepting Christ as one’s personal Savior there is nothing further to do - then I think there is a problem there.

In my opinion, this problem would be of such a dimension that no amount of ‘nurturing’ would help. If we view OSAS as a product of Luther’s view of theology, then this ‘season’ has lasted since about 1500 - and it does not look like it has produced any fruit.

As I see it, the OSAS approach takes the 25th Chapter of Matthew’s Gospel and just throws it out of the window. This chapter contains three distinct stories from Christ that all orbit around us acting on what we believe. The five foolish virgins brought their lamps but failed to bring oil - but, have we failed to do what is necessary but just does not show off to others? The three servants had been given talents but the lazy one failed to use his - but, have we squandered the gifts that God has given to us to use to aid our neighbor? Finally, the story of the Last Judgment when those who did not feed, shelter and clothe the poor were viewed as having neglected Christ and were sent to eternal damnation. There is simply no encouragement for those who want to sit on their hands and shout, “Lord! Lord!..” and not do anything - when so much needs to be done.

So, what to do with this ‘tree’? What ‘nurturing’ is possible after almost 500 years of efforts to put as much distance between itself and James’ statement that, “Faith without works is dead”? Personally, I just do not see it happening within the PCs - but, there is nothing stopping an individual from believing what Christ’s Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) teaches!

God bless

 

[Bill_Pick]

No matter how I explain it you will not accept it because its not of the Catholic faith. Besides I have explained it over and over.

May be ,you just do not know how to explain thing,Once saved is a flase teaching…I have a brother in law that was at a retreat and said all of the prays that the pbastor ask him to say for a week and said to all I have been save,and 6 hr. later shoot him self, is he in heaven

 

[elvisman]

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.​

And your point is - what?
That works are not a necessary part of true faith?
If that is your position - I have already given ample Scriptural evidence to the contrary.

You must remember - the Scriptures don’t contradict themselves - they compliment each other. The CONTEXT of Scripture proves the Catholic position and squashes the OSAS position.

 

[elvisman]

We are a lot closer than you think, and always have been. But Catholics don’t always embrace the teaching that has been there all along. What I have been trying to show you is my thought is actually a bit closer to Catholic thought than many Catholics choose to follow. (not OSAS, but the Faith and Works part).

No - you still don’t have the faith and works part down. You say that we only do good works because of our faith - that is inaccurate.
ANYBODY can do good things - even an atheist. It is our faith that makes our good deeds pleasing to God. Remember - even Pharoah released the Hebrew slaves. God can make good things come out of evil men.

A side note, I don’t think we have ever talked about “bad fruit” yet. We have talked about barren limbs and barren trees, unless I missed it, I think this is the first introduction to it.

What?? You brought it up.
YOUR words:

What I am saying is, work is obedient to faith. Work answers to faith. Work results from faith. Work is because of Faith. If I am trudging along as a Christian and you cannot see fruit (or blossoms at this time of year), then we might have a problem. As a tree, my only job is crank out the fruit. No fruit is bad.

As I showed you - with Scriptural proof (Matt 7:17-20) - this is patently false.

 

[Xavierlives]

PART 1 –

I want to thank you for thinking about these things in relationship to the Protestant faith. We have been spending quite a bit of time on an individual believer and I do think that while we can look to an individual tree for growth, we also should look to the entire orchard.

As I hinted at the beginning (and explained many posts ago) this is not my belief. I attended a Baptist high school and I feel well versed in the OSAS. I am doing my best to remain consistent in my arguing for OSAS (but sometimes I have noticed my personal beliefs have crept into the argument). The whole reason for the thread and the discussion was someone on a thread said OSAS has never been sufficiently discussed on CAF, and so I was trying to facilitate that discourse.

When you bring in your discussion of the protestant faith, you are obviously hitting closer to the mark for me because I do identify myself as protestant. I said when I first joined the CAF, I do that more to distinguish myself from the Catholics than say “I am Protestant!” I think there is often an underlying thought that protestants are opposing Catholicism, and while I cannot speak for every protestant, I think the rebellious teenage years of the faith have passed, and the faith has matured.

Hi, Xavierlives,

I have a question on the last section of your post.

This is an interesting analogy you are providing here, Xavierlives. And, I am really trying to grasp what you are saying.

If the idea is that OSAS has the potential to be a viable doctrine, it effectively has to be redefined in such a manner that it is but a shadow of its former (heretical) self… For example, if we were to define OSAS such that prior to the Christ coming to earth none were saved (not counting the anticipated merits) and after Christ’s Resurrection all of humanity - past, present and future have been purchased at a great price, as St. Paul says (1Cor 6:20), then fine. I have no trouble with that. If, however, we define OSAS as after once accepting Christ as one’s personal Savior there is nothing further to do - then I think there is a problem there.

You hit on some very import points here and I am going to have to address them separately:

I am not sure understand the direction you are heading with the “OSAS-prior to Christ’s incarnation.” I can see one direction to mean: now in my present form, where I am bound to time and place, I must take action to receive Christ’s gift. Once redeemed, I will be resurrected, at that point I will be like Christ and know no bounds of place and time. Therefore I have my salvation Once and Always (OSAS). I do not object to that in any form. (I do not object while arguing for OSAS or my personal beliefs).

Now closer to the OSAS argument, I would argue a little more finality. God knew me from the beginning. He knew I would accept his offer. So from the beginning of time he had mapped out every possibility and knew my choice. Now if you will indulge me for a moment.

Have you ever looked at your life and noticed once decision, one solitary decision, has completely changed the course of your life. I have. I am not saying the little decisions, “should I take the highway or the backroads” but the “I am making a change” decisions. Mine was a kneejerk reaction in the wake of being a victim of a crime, I said, “I am moving to Florida.” I thought I would be there but a season and I stayed for 17 years. What if…

I mention all of this because we are constantly being called upon to make some very difficult decisions that can have some life changing effects. Many of those have a spiritual effect. Should I read my Bible. Should I go to church. Should my family pray. These are all actions that one would expect to then see growth. The problem is, not all things grow in the seasons. When I was but a young boy in springtime, I read. In the summer of my youth, the heat was hot and I took some damage, but the Master did not neglect me. He dunged me, he watered me and I have moved into the fall. This is the moment we have all been waiting, because while I flowered in the spring, and the heat destroyed some fruit, we are now heading into harvest.

Now all of this is an overall view of life and nothing that I have said new and has been used time and again.

Well the question for OSAS is, when Christ plants the seed, and I am his, that seed has many obstacles. Some will fall on fertile soil (I am so thankful to my parents for everything they did to break up the rocks and make sure the soil was as free from obstructions when the seed was planted. Some are not so lucky. Some get but a season to grow. Some seeds land in very tough soil.

OSAS in its most basic form is, once that seed is planted and someone has accepted it, it has but a short time. The master can come back and look upon it and say, Chop it down. Sometimes the keeper can say, Master, please, let me dung it for this season and see what becomes of it. And the Master said, very well, but for a season. The tree is still being tended to, the tree is still being nurtured, but because of placement in the soil, or disease, or heat, or whatever, when the master looks upon the tree next there should be signs of fruit.

So the ultimate question is, who decides? Do the other tree looks around and say, “Ho-ho-ho! Look at all of my fruit!” No. The Master decides. The Master might look upon a single piece of fruit and upon sampling say, “This is the best I have ever tasted.” (Now don’t get me wrong, I am not putting words in Christ’s mouth) I am saying, He is the ultimate judge. Not the other trees.

 

[Xavierlives]

PART 2 -

In my opinion, this problem would be of such a dimension that no amount of ‘nurturing’ would help. If we view OSAS as a product of Luther’s view of theology, then this ‘season’ has lasted since about 1500 - and it does not look like it has produced any fruit.

And again, it is not the role of the other trees in the orchard to look around and say, “he-he-he… did you see that protestant tree over there?” No. I think we need to worry about ourselves and pray for an abundant crop for the entire orchard.

As I see it, the OSAS approach takes the 25th Chapter of Matthew’s Gospel and just throws it out of the window. This chapter contains three distinct stories from Christ that all orbit around us acting on what we believe. The five foolish virgins brought their lamps but failed to bring oil - but, have we failed to do what is necessary but just does not show off to others? The three servants had been given talents but the lazy one failed to use his - but, have we squandered the gifts that God has given to us to use to aid our neighbor? Finally, the story of the Last Judgment when those who did not feed, shelter and clothe the poor were viewed as having neglected Christ and were sent to eternal damnation. There is simply no encouragement for those who want to sit on their hands and shout, “Lord! Lord!..” and not do anything - when so much needs to be done.

I haven’t really wanted to bring the 10 virgins into the conversation for a couple of reasons. The first and foremost, I think it is one of the most powerful examples for once saved always saved. I need only be wise early. Store up all my requirements and when I am prepared, I get to sit and wait. The wise virgins are doing nothing after their preparation but waiting for the party to start. The foolish virgins were doing whatever they were doing, not getting ready and then when they (all ten) saw him coming they said… oops… we better get ready.

The other reason I have wanted to exclude it from the dialogue is it seems like it is more a reference to the brides of Christ. This is a touchy subject because well, how the CC views itself (the only bride in the room).

So, what to do with this ‘tree’? What ‘nurturing’ is possible after almost 500 years of efforts to put as much distance between itself and James’ statement that, “Faith without works is dead”? Personally, I just do not see it happening within the PCs - but, there is nothing stopping an individual from believing what Christ’s Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) teaches!

God bless

I think this last part has been sufficiently discussed.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Xavierlives,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. Here is an item from Shakespear about the need for making life-changing decisions. While there are others, I have always found this quite motivational… Truly, each day is the first day of our lives!

PART 1 – …
Have you ever looked at your life and noticed once decision, one solitary decision, has completely changed the course of your life. I have. I am not saying the little decisions, “should I take the highway or the backroads” but the “I am making a change” decisions. Mine was a kneejerk reaction in the wake of being a victim of a crime, I said, “I am moving to Florida.” I thought I would be there but a season and I stayed for 17 years. What if…

There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat,
And we must take the current when it serves,
Or lose our ventures.

So the ultimate question is, who decides? Do the other tree looks around and say, “Ho-ho-ho! Look at all of my fruit!” No. The Master decides. The Master might look upon a single piece of fruit and upon sampling say, “This is the best I have ever tasted.” (Now don’t get me wrong, I am not putting words in Christ’s mouth) I am saying, He is the ultimate judge. Not the other trees.

I am really not quite in agreement with your conclusion. While ridicule is not the focus of Christ’s parable, we really do need to look around us and check our bearings and make sure we are following Him - and not some illusion of Him. Let me explain.

What kind of ship captain or airline pilot after departing on their journey for a certain destination - checks their instruments once and then goes about doing something else? None. Those who think they are still on course because they set out that way - had best do some checking to make sure this is the case. If you saw trees that were not bearing fruit - I really do not think you would ridicule them - you would try to help. But, if the help were rejected - you would just continue to march - ridicule is not needed under any circumstance.

Personally, the idea that the 10 virgins (or at least the wise 5) represent OSAS is a new one on me. Actually, some of the group could have wandered off, or done other things that would have rendered them unfit for the Kingdom of God. So, rather then OSAS, I would have said, “he who persevers to the end will be saved…” But, don’t forget, Matt 25 has three stories - and the 10 virgins are just the first one.

The lazy servant was given a talent - and wasted it. No OSAS message there, is there? The groups divided into those at the left and right hand of God were quite surprised that they were judged on their WORKS! (Of course, you know Paul put Faith as the basis - and Charity at the sumit of the virtues…so, the acts of Charity actually being recognized before the White Throne shouldn’t come as a surprise.

God bless