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Xavierlives
Guest
That is where the Holy Spirit leads.Which comandments have you broken today? Are ye without sin? no need to list all ten…Which commandment binds alcohol? Foul language?
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jmcrae
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How would he have known that, though? At the time, it seemed very real, to him. How could he have gotten saved during that time that he was doing his street ministry? He was already convinced that he was saved, already.
I even had this same conversation with him, about “once saved always saved,” and I even asked him at the time, “If you were not really saved, how would you know?” And he said, “There is nothing to worry about. I know in my heart that I love Jesus, and that I am saved.” He even risked his life many times, preaching to drug addicts and alcoholics. That seems pretty real, to me.
Well - maybe at present he is only “AWOL” - but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.
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jlhargus
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JL: What are you persevering against to the last day? Why do you NEED to persever, to the last day, if you can’t lose your salvation? And finally if without repentance we won’t persevere for very long, then you have lost your salvation, if OSAS is not operative.
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jlhargus
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JL: How do YOU know his faith was theoretical and not literal, when he believed it to be literal? All those who believe, repent and are baptized are adopted by God with the indwelling Holy Spirit. How would it be impossible for theM to later deny their Father? Would they now be robots, without free choice? How can you return to someone, unless you first leave them?
What would he be AWOL from? If he dies AWOL is he saved or was he never saved? He would be AWOR, absent without repentance, spiritually dead in his sins, separated from his father, just like the prodigal son, until he RETURNED, PWR, present with repentance.
[Hb6:4 For it is impossible for THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND have TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.] How can you RENEW a person who has never been FIRST RENEWED?
Paul is addressing a Christian community, those who have been ENLIGHTENED. They are not on the brink of being enlightened they are ENLIGHTENED and HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, They have the indwelling Holy Ghost.
Paul warns BELIEVERS, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, of the danger of apostasy, alluding to those ONCE Jewish Christians, who LEFT fell away from the Christian community and returned to Judaism. Having rejected Christ’s sacrifice, once again placing their faith in circumcision and animal sacrifice, which can never renew them again to repentance taking away sin. It is impossible for them to repent and be renewed, apart from Christ and the Christian Community. As long as they remain hostile to the Gospel, it is impossible to renew them unto repentance.
[Gal5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 **CHRIST IS BECOME OF NO EFFECT UNTO YOU, whosoever of you are justified by the law; YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE.] Judaizers (Jewish Christians) who are circumcised, and claim Christians must be circumcised, are FALLEN FROM GRACE. In order to be, “fallen from grace”, they must first HAVE been in GRACE.
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jlhargus
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JL: AtticusFinch, good to see you here, do you hear from any of the old gang, I miss the old days, I hope more of them come here. I hope you remember me? Guess who was/is here our old nemesis kevin4Jesus. He was Tanner (gone) and still here as revkevin.
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AtticusFinch
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Yeah…I hear from some of them. We have a Catholic Board elsewhere. How you been?
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brb3
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Don’t know the man. But, it’s the Apostates that reject their theoretical ideas about Christ, and can become atheists – able to deny what they never had. Prodigals had saving faith, became lost, and later found.
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brb3
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It is doubtful he is an AWOL Prodigal … based on that scripture from Hebrews, about those who “Crucify Christ” . Some people preach/heal for their glory, not for their Lords. Simon the Magician was such a fellow.How would he have known that, though? At the time, it seemed very real, to him. How could he have gotten saved during that time that he was doing his street ministry? He was already convinced that he was saved, already.
I even had this same conversation with him, about “once saved always saved,” and I even asked him at the time, “If you were not really saved, how would you know?” And he said, “There is nothing to worry about. I know in my heart that I love Jesus, and that I am saved.” He even risked his life many times, preaching to drug addicts and alcoholics. That seems pretty real, to me.
Well - maybe at present he is only “AWOL” - but I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.
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brb3
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The ECF’s realized and taught that the entirety of scripture was summed up in Charity. Every verse in Bible had is basis in Charity … so they said. This was confirmed by Pope Gregory the Great in 600 AD.
We are to persevere, to teach/live lives of charity, and so honor/abide in Christ. Those who turn away from this commandment, taught to the disciples by Christ, are those who know the truth but don’t live the faith. As James taught, faith w/o works is dead. Those saved, the election of God, will ultimately persevere … they cannot do otherwise and call themselves disciples.
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brb3
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Paul is speaking of Apostates. Theoretical Christians, ones seeking their own glory. They have been instructed in the gospel … yet never became God’s election. They were baptized by water, but not by Christ’s H.S. They have ‘tasted’, received the Eucharist … but, they received wrongly … as did Judas. They don’t really possess the indwelling H.S. … they don’t abide/persevere IN CHRIST.
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fbl9
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Yet at the time they still thought they were assured salvation till they discovered the real truth and couldn’t accept their own error so with no choice left but to denounce all.
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fbl9
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Christ warned that even the elct can be led astray,. If one is astray they are lost. So again another reason to declare osas a false doctrine.
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brb3
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The elect, led astray, are the Prodigals. Led astray by their own actions and by other false teachers.
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1beleevr
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And yet,1Corinthians 3:15 says that even though we are tested as if by fire we will still be saved!
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jmcrae
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Simon the Magician was fully aware of what he lacked.
My friend must have been deeply deceived indeed, since he never got any “glory” out of his street ministry. He didn’t start earning any serious money, or start being approved of by his family and co-workers until after he became an atheist.
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1beleevr
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Hey, Xavierlives: Did anyone ever answer your question about what Romans 8:38-39 meant?
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1beleevr
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Sounds like you’re saying that sinning against God, afteryou are saved is no big deal!
Echoes a catholic co-worker of mine! He said, “What do I have to worry about? Jesus’s death on the Cross forgave ALL my sins!” In the dictionary, repent means,“to be sorry for or regret sinning, and seek forgiveness.” Some would argue that to repent means to change one’s heart, and mind, turn away from sin; and towards God. So, if when we are saved, and our sins are all forgiven, what is the need for weekly confession?
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jmcrae
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If you are saved for all time by the one profession of faith, then it makes no sense to “repent” since “repent” means to turn around - but you are already with God, so why would you need to turn around?Sounds like you’re saying that sinning against God, afteryou are saved is no big deal!
Catholics don’t believe in once saved always saved, or that one profession of faith brings us to Heaven (unless we die immediately after that profession of faith, of course) - we believe that every time we sin, we set our feet in the path to Hell, so we have to turn around (repent) and get ourselves back into God’s path, by making a good Confession, and seriously desiring never to sin again.So, if when we are saved, and our sins are all forgiven, what is the need for weekly confession?
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1beleevr
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So, are you saying that your sins were not all forgiven on the Cross? Can repent also mean,"feeling sorry or regretful for sinning, and seeking forgiveness?If you are saved for all time by the one profession of faith, then it makes no sense to “repent” since “repent” means to turn around - but you are already with God, so why would you need to turn around?
Catholics don’t believe in once saved always saved, or that one profession of faith brings us to Heaven (unless we die immediately after that profession of faith, of course) - we believe that every time we sin, we set our feet in the path to Hell, so we have to turn around (repent) and get ourselves back into God’s path, by making a good Confession, and seriously desiring never to sin again.
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jmcrae
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Our sins are forgiven by Christ on the Cross when we go to Confession. It is by means of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, which is what takes place in Confession, that our sins are taken to the Cross and washed away from our souls.
If you are already saved, then you already have forgiveness - you don’t need to seek it, since to be “saved” is to be already forgiven.
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