A Case for Once Saved Always Saved

[jlhargus]

Oh I am convinced, nothing can separate us from the LOVE of God. The ONLY thing that can separate us FROM God is OUR FREE WILL choice. [Gal6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.] How many times must we sow to the flesh to reap corruption?

Rms11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,** IF **THOU CONTINUE in his goodness: OTHERWISE THOU also SHALT BE CUT OFF.

Rms8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Gal6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF WE FAINT NOT.

Yes, thats why we have S.S. …to remind us of the certainty we will sin … and need to repent of.

JL: What are the wages of sin? Isn’t it death? Why would we need a reminder of the certainty we will sin, if there are no wages to reap from sinning? According to OSAS the saved can just eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die and will go to heaven no matter what we do, we can’t lose salvation.

The Good Shepherd uses these scriptures to bring us BACK into the fold. As Paul teaches in Gal 6:9 … in due season WE SHALL reap. Not we might reap. For those who Abide in Christ, ultimate failure is not an option.

JL: Here again you contradict yourself. If the Good Shepherd uses these scriptures TO BRING us BA CK into the fold, then we must have first left the fold, lost our salvation. Yes what we sow we SHALL reap, how many times do I need to commit adultery to reap the wages of sin? Gal6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, **IF WE FAINT NOT **

you seem to have conveniently left off, IF WE FAINT NOT. Yes THOSE WHO ABIDE IN CHRIST, you can’t ADIBE in Christ and be guilty of, [Gal5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.]

 

[jlhargus]

You can’t? [Gal5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.]

How many times must I commit idolatry, before I am guilty of idolatry? How many heresies must I be guilty of before I am a heretic? How many times can I murder, before I am guilty of murder?

Yes, I see drunkenness, revellings and the like … in the Prodigal Son’s experience. And yet, didn’t he inherit the Kingdom ? HOW MANY TIMES MUST I CONFESS OF MY SINS, BEFORE I AM SAVED OF THEM ? one !!! one contrite confession and return to Christ will remove our guilt before God. Don’t be so pessimistic, in Christ there is only optimism, peace, and life eternal. In Christ, failure is not the final outcome.

JL: Yes one contrite confession and we return to Christ, what would have happened IF the prodigal (a waster) had chose NOT to REPENT, didn’t he have free will, would he have just gone to heaven anyway? He would have remained eternally separated from the Father. Yes IN CHRIST not IN MORTAL SIN, you can’t be in both at the same time.

Show me, the scripture where Christ told the Apostles how they could be 100% sure. You make a lot of statements yet present NO evidence, can’t you find any?

John 17:6 "I have manifested thy name to the men whom THOU GAVEST ME out of the world; THINE THEY WERE, AND THOU GAVEST THEM TO ME, AND THEY HAVE KEPT THY WORD. … & read on to verse 11-12 “And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee, HOLY FATHER, KEEP THEM IN THY NAME, WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE. … I HAVE GUARDED THEM, AND NONE WERE LOST … now to verse 15, … * THAT THOU SHOULDST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL ONE.”

Can you now see the basis for Salvation Assurance & OSAS ?*

JL: Yes, I saw it clearly as a Protestant and still now as a Catholic. I can see clearly, the basis for OSAS is contradiction of scripture, otherwise it doesn’t stand.
brb3;6440982:

What more do you require, ye of little faith … BELIEVE AND RECEIVE, YOU CAN DO IT

JL: Simple scriptural TRUTH would suffice, yet you have none. For OSAS to work you must contradict scriptures, including [Jn17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 WHILE I WAS WITH THEM **IN THE WORLD

, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and NONE OF THEM IS LOST, BUT the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.]

That’s a really big BUT, to miss, yet you left it out, (pun intended) why? Because it contradicts OSAS? For Judas to be LOST he had, first, to be one of Christ’s, otherwise he could NOT have been LOST, could he? Even without the BUT, Jesus is speaking of ONLY the apostles and he KEPT them, WHILE HE WAS IN THE WORLD, BUT one. There IS ABSOLUTELY nothing here that even IMPLIES OSAS, in fact it TEACHES quite the OPPOSITE.

 

[jlhargus]

Xxxxxxxx

now read on thru verse 25 … which teaches this prayer of Christ is ALSO for ALL Christians, not just the Apostles.

JL: Yes his prayer is for all his people as a fellowship. His prayer is for the Church, that we may ALL BE ONE, so the world may believe. The Church has and will always be one, in that ONE APOSTOLIC FELLOWSHIP extablished by Christ. Christ has ONE BRIDE not thousands. We even know what those, who heard and believed the truth, did and how important to continue in that ONE FELLOWSHIP and CORRECT DOCTRINE.

[Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE **ADDED UNTO THEM

– [They were ADDED to ONE VISIBLE BODY or fellowship, not some so called invisible BODY.]–

about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN** the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD and in PRAYERS. Those that received his word were baptized. They were brought into the Church by baptism and CONTINUED steadfastly in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship.

[1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR] Belonging to that ONE FELLOWSHIP is how we know with assurance TRUTH from ERROR.

 

[jlhargus]

Originally Posted by brb3
You ask alot of questions here. Too many to answer in one respondo. I’ve given my interpretation of Heb. 6:4 earlier.

JL: Yes and I have reposted my questions along with your, totally contradicting interpretation, following the text of Hb6:4-6. [Hb6:4 For it is impossible for THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND have TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by brb3
Paul is speaking of Apostates. Theoretical Christians, ones seeking their own glory. They have been instructed in the gospel … yet never became God’s election. They were baptized by water, but not by Christ’s H.S. They have ‘tasted’, received the Eucharist … but, they received wrongly … as did Judas. They don’t really possess the indwelling H.S. … they don’t abide/persevere IN CHRIST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlhargus
Where does the text, in Hb6:4-6, say apostates are theoretical Christians? Where does the text say they seek their own glory? Where does the text say they never became God’s election? Where does the text say they didn’t receive the H. S. when baptized? Where does the text say they received the Eucharist wrongly? Where does the text say they don’t really posses the indwelling H.S.? Where does the text say they don’t abide/persevere IN CHRIST? Those are only your words, which contradict the text.

You can’t defend your contradiction, so you make the excuse it’s to many questions, for one respondo. Then do two respondos and don’t make up so many things. That way I wont have to ask you, so many times, to show where those things are in scripture.

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Tiber swim team 73. Jn14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. (Christ) Lk1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: (Mary) for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. The Ultimate truth is CHRIST who is TRUTH.

 

[brb3]

According to OSAS the Prodigal could NOT have been a true son, saved, in the first place, because if he was he lost his salvation.

.

No, any Protestant who defines it as your propose above is badly mistaken in his read of scriptures. A Prodigal is a true son, gone missing by free will choice, who is found by Christ and recovered into the fold. He errs, but recovers, and learns to persevere.

In Catholic terms — its one who misses confession for a # of years, but finally decides after hearing Father Corapi to return for a sincere, complete ‘reconciliation’.

 

[brb3]

According to OSAS the saved can just eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die and will go to heaven no matter what we do, we can’t lose salvation.

If the Good Shepherd uses these scriptures TO BRING us BA CK into the fold, then we must have first left the fold, lost our salvation.

No, that’s the pagan Roman philosophy of life. Any Protestant who preaches such a philosophy w/o attention to perseverance … is an unsaved pagan.

Astray, and in danger of great loss, but a true son WILL wake up and be reunited to the Father. Recall that we don’t make the call on another’s salvation, God reserves that right … since only He knows the true facts of matter, and knows who will recover.

 

[brb3]

what would have happened IF the prodigal (a waster) had chose NOT to REPENT, didn’t he have free will, would he have just gone to heaven anyway?

Certainly not. He would not have been a redeemed son … but, a pagan Roman. Nevertheless, he would qualify for another way of salvation. He might still receive sonship adoption in his last days … even up until his final day, as did the thief on cross.

 

[brb3]

JL: Simple scriptural TRUTH would suffice, yet you have none. For OSAS to work you must contradict scriptures, including [Jn17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 WHILE I WAS WITH THEM **IN THE WORLD

, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept,

BUT, Jesus is speaking of ONLY the apostles and he KEPT them, WHILE HE WAS IN THE WORLD, BUT one.

No, scripture describes accurately the facts as we now know them. As long as Christ was with the 11, they followed him. One in training to be a good shepherd for the Church, turned out to be a worthless shepherd, and left the flock early to rejoin the 3 False Shepherd Temple groups described in OT book Zechariah Chp 11-12. The other 11 briefly fell away after Christ was taken / killed … but, they were Recovered and Perservered in Christ’s Church.

What the scriptures say … indeed happened.

 

[brb3]

]NONE OF THEM IS LOST, BUT the son of perdition

; that the scripture might be fulfilled.]

.

is a son of perdition … a son of our Lord’s ? Indeed not !

 

[brb3]

You can’t defend your contradiction, so you make the excuse it’s to many questions,

.

No, I quote scripture in defense of other OT scripture.

 

[guanophore]

And so we should believe that these are a representation of Christ then? When they look so different from each other? Isn’t easier to look at the Word and see his image?

Both ways are valid. I don’t think it is for us to decide for others how best they can encounter the love of Christ. I have a hard time with the crucifix too, knowing that it was I that drove the nails in with my sins.

That movie the Passion has been out for years, and I still have not had the courage to watch it.

 

[guanophore]

Well of course He said,"It is finished while still on the Cross! But He had to be buried in order to achieve victory over the grave, such as we will when we die! So, He had completed almost all of His work, and then was buried, and rose again, as prophesied, on the third day. Why does the Bible say that Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimethea wwere Jewish leaders of the Pharisees?

For the same reason that Paul testified he was a Pharisee. And for the same reason Scripture testifies that many of the Jewish priests believed:

[Acts .6:7] And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.

For some reason you think that being a Pharisee or a priest means one cannot be a follower and a disciple. I think scripture indicates otherwise. Paul was a Pharisee until his death, and found no conflict between that way of life and his Christian faith.

 

[guanophore]

No, any Protestant who defines it as your propose above is badly mistaken in his read of scriptures. A Prodigal is a true son, gone missing by free will choice, who is found by Christ and recovered into the fold. He errs, but recovers, and learns to persevere.

In Catholic terms — its one who misses confession for a # of years, but finally decides after hearing Father Corapi to return for a sincere, complete ‘reconciliation’.

You are so right brb, and I LOVE Fr. Corapi! He pulls no punches.

I also think that the sonship is critical in this parable. Once we are baptized into Christ, adopted, and heirs with Christ, we can never become “unadopted”.

The problem is that many people think God will not allow his adopted ones to choose hell.

 

[brb3]

You are so right brb, and I LOVE Fr. Corapi! He pulls no punches.

I also think that the sonship is critical in this parable. Once we are baptized into Christ, adopted, and heirs with Christ, we can never become “unadopted”.

The problem is that many people think God will not allow his adopted ones to choose hell.

Thank you G-4 ! You’re opinion is not mere opinion. People so misunderstand the topic of S.A. & the Adoption of God.

I hope PAX reads this. He and I have been doing battle over what St. Teresa of Avila teaches on subject in her book INTERIOR CASTLE.

 

[tweetymom]

Both ways are valid. I don’t think it is for us to decide for others how best they can encounter the love of Christ. I have a hard time with the crucifix too, knowing that it was I that drove the nails in with my sins.

That movie the Passion has been out for years, and I still have not had the courage to watch it.

I watched it with my eyes closed.

 

[jlhargus]

Yes, thats why we have S.S. …to remind us of the certainty we will sin … and need to repent of.

JL: What are the wages of sin? Isn’t it death? Why would we need a reminder of the certainty we will sin, if there are no wages to reap from sinning? According to OSAS the saved can just eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die and will go to heaven no matter what we do, we can’t lose salvation.

No, that’s the pagan Roman philosophy of life.

Any Protestant who preaches such a philosophy w/o attention to perseverance … is an unsaved pagan.

JL: beleevr is a OSAS Protestant, is he now an unsaved pagan.

Originally Posted by 1beleevr: I would never say that a Christian who commits a serious sin was never saved; if after being saved, they openly led a life that was rife with sin! Do they lose their sonship?

And, you would be wrong. It happens quite alot. Lots of Prodigals around.

They are in grave danger, living with unconfessed Mortals. I think most will eventually repent and return to the fold. Its hard to stay in the pig pen for too long, once God judges them, and their money gives out.

Astray, and in danger of great loss, but a true son WILL wake up and be reunited to the Father.

JL: You are making up things again and contradicting yourself. Show me scripture, where a true son WILL wake up and be reunited to the Father , WITHOUT EXCEPTION. Then read your answer with the bold MOST above, you don’t even agree with yourself.

Recall that we don’t make the call on another’s salvation, God reserves that right … since only He knows the true facts of matter, and knows who will recover.

JL: Well, until you were called on it, you judged that once saved street preacher and now atheist was NEVER saved

What about the protestant that turned Atheist and never went back to God, does OSAS apply to him?

That Atheist **was never saved **in past, not saved in present, and **determined not to accept **offer of salvation of Christ.

JL: Looks to me you have judged him past, present AND future. I think you just make it up, as seems convenient, with the circumstance. The only thing in which you have been consistent is contradicting yourself.

 

[jlhargus]

No, scripture describes accurately the facts as we now know them. As long as Christ was with the 11, they followed him. One in training to be a good shepherd for the Church, turned out to be a worthless shepherd, and left the flock early to rejoin the 3 False Shepherd Temple groups described in OT book Zechariah Chp 11-12. The other 11 briefly fell away after Christ was taken / killed … but, they were Recovered and Perservered in Christ’s Church.

What the scriptures say … indeed happened.

JL: Yes indeed WHAT the scriptures say happened. What YOU say didn’t. I notice you didn’t post any scripture, why?

 

[jlhargus]

is a son of perdition … a son of our Lord’s ? Indeed not !

JL: When he sins

 

[jlhargus]

Originally Posted by brb3
You ask alot of questions here. Too many to answer in one respondo. I’ve given my interpretation of Heb. 6:4 earlier.

JL: Yes and I have reposted my questions along with your, totally contradicting interpretation, following the text of Hb6:4-6. [Hb6:4 For it is impossible for THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND have TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by brb3
Paul is speaking of Apostates. Theoretical Christians, ones seeking their own glory. They have been instructed in the gospel … yet never became God’s election. They were baptized by water, but not by Christ’s H.S. They have ‘tasted’, received the Eucharist … but, they received wrongly … as did Judas. They don’t really possess the indwelling H.S. … they don’t abide/persevere IN CHRIST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlhargus
Where does the text, in Hb6:4-6, say apostates are theoretical Christians? Where does the text say they seek their own glory? Where does the text say they never became God’s election? Where does the text say they didn’t receive the H. S. when baptized? Where does the text say they received the Eucharist wrongly? Where does the text say they don’t really posses the indwelling H.S.? Where does the text say they don’t abide/persevere IN CHRIST? Those are only your words, which contradict the text.

You can’t defend your contradiction, so you make the excuse it’s to many questions, for one respondo. Then do two respondos and don’t make up so many things. That way I wont have to ask you, so many times, to show where those things are in scripture. QUOTE]
brb3;6446152:

No, I quote scripture in defense of other OT scripture.

JL: Show me, you just make statements and a statement without evidence is evidence the statement is false.

 

[brb3]

JL: When he sins

Which we all do, many times daily. By your accounting of Salvation … you would be saved, then lost, then saved, etc multiple times daily, … provided you took the time to repent after each sin. TALK ABOUT A LEGALIST !!! Please …reconsider.