A Catholic Look at Mormanism

[ParkerD]

We are talking only about children of the second marriage.

Zaffiroborant,

The example that was presented included children of the first marriage, and children of the second marriage–which means both sets of children are together in the home, being raised by the mother and her second husband, lovingly and with all the devotion to Jesus Christ that is central to their religious foundation. It means the children come to understand that the father of the children who are their siblings, died and that this is an opportunity for all of them to learn more about Christ-like love.

I don’t see much difference between that situation and an adopted child coming to understand that the mother who gave a child up for adoption, loved that child and wanted what was best for him or her, and that Jesus loves them just as much as if that mother had been able to raise them as her own child, and that the parents are going to treat this child just as though he or she had been naturally born to that mother and father.

 

[theidler]

Zaffiroborant,

The example that was presented included children of the first marriage, and children of the second marriage–which means both sets of children are together in the home, being raised by the mother and her second husband, lovingly and with all the devotion to Jesus Christ that is central to their religious foundation. It means the children come to understand that the father of the children who are their siblings, died and that this is an opportunity for all of them to learn more about Christ-like love.

I don’t see much difference between that situation and an adopted child coming to understand that the mother who gave a child up for adoption, loved that child and wanted what was best for him or her, and that Jesus loves them just as much as if that mother had been able to raise them as her own child, and that the parents are going to treat this child just as though he or she had been naturally born to that mother and father.

Parker, with all due respect, you cannot be serious here…maybe I;m missing something, I don’t know…

 

[zaffiroborant]

Parker, with all due respect, you cannot be serious here…maybe I;m missing something, I don’t know…

No he is deliberately dancing around the fact that husband number two’s children will be assigned to husband number one’s eternal family. And when husband number two gets to the after life he’ll have to get a new wife because his wife will be waltzing off with her first husband.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,

I don’t see much difference between that situation and an adopted child coming to understand that the mother who gave a child up for adoption, loved that child and wanted what was best for him or her, and that Jesus loves them just as much as if that mother had been able to raise them as her own child, and that the parents are going to treat this child just as though he or she had been naturally born to that mother and father.

Except the father of the children is forced into giving them up by this abominable sealing.

 

[theidler]

No he is deliberately dancing around the fact that husband number two’s children will be assigned to husband number one’s eternal family. And when husband number two gets to the after life he’ll have to get a new wife because his wife will be waltzing off with her first husband.

What in the…that doesn’t even make any sense. :hypno:

 

[RebeccaJ]

Except the father of the children is forced into giving them up by this abominable sealing.

I prefer to go with what Jesus Christ taught, all who follow him will be with him.

In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit (Eph 1:13)

(KJV: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise)

 

[ParkerD]

Except the father of the children is forced into giving them up by this abominable sealing.

Zaffiroborant,

Are we understanding that by talking about “the sealing ordinance” we are talking about its taking effect in the Celestial Kingdom, where after their resurrection everyone is an adult, and no longer “looks through a glass darkly” with all the mortal misunderstandings about loving relationships, including within extended families as they interact with each other?

 

[Janderich]

"In the resurrection there will be no marrying nor giving in marriage; for all questions of marital status must be settled before that time, under the authority of the Holy Priesthood, which holds the power to seal in marriage for both time and eternity.” (Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 509)

Man’s problems are not God’s problems.

 

[theidler]

And John the Apostle is still alive too, right?

 

[zaffiroborant]

"In the resurrection there will be no marrying nor giving in marriage; for all questions of marital status must be settled before that time, under the authority of the Holy Priesthood, which holds the power to seal in marriage for both time and eternity.” (Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 509)

Man’s problems are not God’s problems.

So no eternal companion for the second husband and so no exaltation, and all his earthly family run off to live happily ever after. This is abominable.

 

[Khalid]

Who said that the eventual final answer would be “because Joseph Smith/Brigham Young said so”?

You win.

 

[Miriam1947]

"In the resurrection there will be no marrying nor giving in marriage; for all questions of marital status must be settled before that time, under the authority of the Holy Priesthood, which holds the power to seal in marriage for both time and eternity.” (Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 509)

Man’s problems are not God’s problems.

What is Talmage?

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 12:25[/BIBLEDRB]

** . . . they shall neither marry, nor be married . . . **

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

[NewSeeker]

Zaffiroborant,

Are we understanding that by talking about “the sealing ordinance” we are talking about its taking effect in the Celestial Kingdom, where after their resurrection everyone is an adult, and no longer “looks through a glass darkly” with all the mortal misunderstandings about loving relationships, including within extended families as they interact with each other?

In heaven, all relationships will be perfected in Christ (meaning all will share in and manifest God’s perfect love toward all beings equally - because love itself will be perfected). There are no gradations in perfection; you will love all equally and perfectly, holding no one person or group of persons in special regard. Your wife and kids won’t have a special place in your heart; all created beings will be there together in your heart, all loved equally. You will be completely transformed in Christ in this way or you won’t be in heaven. Do you expect that you will continue to have a relationship with your spouse, children, and extended family (those to whom you have been sealed) that is qualitatively different than your relationship with others in heaven to whom you have not been sealed eternally)? If so, how can you say that your love has been perfected?

 

[Telstar]

Of course, just as I expected, not one Mormon responded to my explanation, that Parker specifically asked me to post. The main reason for there being no marriage of any kind, in Heaven or in the resurrection, is that we will all live as one single family. We will all literally become the* children* of God, aka: brothers and sisters. God will be our only Father (and Mary will most likely be our only Mother). Brothers and sisters never marry each other! Your wife will become your sister, and your husband will become your brother. Why do people not understand this passage:Matthew 12:[48] But he answering him that told him, said: Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? [49] And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren. [50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Which part of us becoming the fully adopted children of God in the next life is it, that some people still can’t seem to understand?

 

[onenow1]

Of course, just as I expected, not one Mormon responded to my explanation, that Parker specifically asked me to post. The main reason for there being no marriage of any kind, in Heaven or in the resurrection, is that we will all live as one single family. We will all literally become the* children* of God, aka: brothers and sisters. God will be our only Father (and Mary will most likely be our only Mother). Brothers and sisters never marry each other! Your wife will become your sister, and your husband will become your brother. Why do people not understand this passage:Matthew 12:[48] But he answering him that told him, said: Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? [49] And stretching forth his hand to wards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren. [50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Which part of us becoming the fully adopted children of God in the next life is it, that some people still can’t seem to understand?

Hi,Telstar, probably because there understating of Jesus is related to there, mis-understanding of divinity, that is total opposition to Jesus teaching;And ! Jesus very clearly explains in John 6 Matt 26, Mark 14. In Matthew and Mark as he changes wine and bread into His Body and Blood!{ Take special notice, He does this in body before the resurrection}Thus ! He has surly reinforced the understanding of His statement in how this is accomplished in,> John 6:53,54,55,55,57. Divinity and humanity joined mysteriously by the Trinity. Humanity is being joined to divinity, in perfect union in the Eucharist, just as Jesus prayed for> John 18: 21,22,23.

May our Lord Jesus bless all in this New Year !
onenow1

 

[Telstar]

Hi,Telstar, probably because there understating of Jesus is related to there, mis-understanding of divinity, that is total opposition to Jesus teaching;And ! Jesus very clearly explains in John 6 Matt 26, Mark 14. In Matthew and Mark as he changes wine and bread into His Body and Blood!{ Take special notice, He does this in body before the resurrection}Thus ! He has surly reinforced the understanding of His statement in how this is accomplished in,> John 6:53,54,55,55,57. Divinity and humanity joined mysteriously by the Trinity. Humanity is being joined to divinity, in perfect union in the Eucharist, just as Jesus prayed for> John 18: 21,22,23.

May our Lord Jesus bless all in this New Year !
onenow1

Hello, there!

I’m fully aware that it’s because they have a completely twisted view of creation and everything else in the Bible, but it doesn’t take a whole lot of education to figure out that children of the same parents don’t get married to one another. As much as I love him, just the thought of marrying my brother gives me the heebie jeebies!! :bigyikes:

 

[Janderich]

Of course, just as I expected, not one Mormon responded to my explanation, that Parker specifically asked me to post. The main reason for there being no marriage of any kind, in Heaven or in the resurrection, is that we will all live as one single family. We will all literally become the* children* of God, aka: brothers and sisters. God will be our only Father (and Mary will most likely be our only Mother). Brothers and sisters never marry each other! Your wife will become your sister, and your husband will become your brother. Why do people not understand this passage:Matthew 12:[48] But he answering him that told him, said: Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? [49] And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren. [50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Which part of us becoming the fully adopted children of God in the next life is it, that some people still can’t seem to understand?

Hi Telstar, here is what I don’t understand on a personal level, LDS level, Biblical level, and on a specific scriptural level.

Personal

I can’t understand why a caring God is going to split up my loving marriage and somehow combine me, my wife, and children with 108 billion other people. Here is how NewSeeker put it,

Your wife and kids won’t have a special place in your heart; all created beings will be there together in your heart, all loved equally. You will be completely transformed in Christ in this way or you won’t be in heaven.

LDS

As LDS it goes against our core doctrine of eternal families. Parley P. Pratt an apostle said it this way,

It was Joseph Smith who taught me how to prize the endearing relationships of father and mother, husband and wife; of brother and sister, son and daughter. It was from him that I learned that the wife of my bosom might be secured to me for time and all eternity; and that the refined sympathies and affections which endeared us to each other emanated from the fountain of divine eternal love. It was from him that I learned that we might cultivate these affections, and grow and increase in the same to all eternity; … I had loved before, but I knew not why. But now I loved—with a pureness—an intensity of elevated, exalted feeling, which would lift my soul from the transitory things of this grovelling sphere and expand it as the ocean. … In short, I could now love with the spirit and with the understanding also. (Parley P. Pratt, Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, ed. Parley P. Pratt Jr. (1938), pp. 297–98)

Bible

I can’t understand how this idea can be squared with larger biblical teaching.

Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. (1 Cor 11:11)

And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together , let not man put asunder. (Mark 10:8-9)

Specific Scripture

In light of the above scriptures I can’t understand why the scriptures about “neither marry nor given in marriage” (Matt 22:23-30, Mark 12:18-25, Luke 20:27-36) are misundersthood. Marriages are not performed after the resurrection. But they are in force. Even a non-LDS scholar gets it right. He says:

The case put forward by the Sadducees is particularly extreme. Not only had six brothers attempted and failed to impregnate the woman in question, but she had also outlived them all and was single when she died. It is perhaps this last fact which prompts the question: Whose spouse will she be in the resurrection?..Jesus stresses that in the age to come people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Notice what Jesus does not say. He does not say there will be no marriage in the age to come. The use of the terms “γαμουσιν” (gamousin) and “γαμιζονται” (gamizontai) is important, for these terms refer to the gender-specific roles played in early Jewish society by the man and the woman in the process of getting married. The men, being the initiators of the process in such a strongly patriarchal culture, “marry,” while the women are “given in marriage” by their father or another older family member. Thus Mark has Jesus saying that no new marriages will be initiated in the eschatological [resurrection] state. This is surely not the same as claiming that all existing marriages will disappear in the eschatological state.” (Ben Witherington III, The Gospel of Mark: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary (Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 2001), emphasis added)

 

[Lochias]

Paul,

So, then, you wouldn’t marry the woman who had had a husband who had died and who had been sealed in her marriage to him. There would be nothing at all that “makes” you make a choice one way or the other.

As for the children, if the woman was from a Latter-day Saint family then those children would have some knowledge about the man and the grandparents, and those grandparents would be involved in those children’s lives because they love them; and if the woman were intelligent she would not create “competition” between the memory of the one man she married who died, and the other man who was now helping her raise the children of the first husband and perhaps new children of the second marriage.

Children can understand when explained to about death, especially when they feel supported by Jesus Christ. The memory of the first husband who had died need not be shut up in a picture book back in the closet and never be talked about.

Careful, if you keep twisting your words the way you have been through this entire thread, your fingers are gonna knot themselves together…

 

[chepner3]

I don’t think anyone has mentioned yet what happens at a sealing. Whether it is children to their parents or a couple to each other, during the ceremony each person is given a secret name. The person or persons to whom you are sealed get to know that secret name. When everyone ends up in heaven, supposedly we’re going to look much different than we do on earth. We’ll go around and ask different souls who they are. I envision we’ll wander around yelling various names until some soul hears us and says, “Yeah! That’s me!” We’ll know we met up with the right person because they’ll know our secret name.

A new sealing doesn’t change that. Our children will still know the first parent’s secret name. And that parent will know their child’s.

Of course, all this assumes that all souls from the same extended family end up in the same level of heaven (apparently the levels don’t mix; and I thought there were seven levels not three). And keep in mind, we hope our children don’t die until they are grown and have had children and grandchildren (and great grandchildren) of their own so they have more people to meet up with than just dad or step-dad.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Hi Telstar, here is what I don’t understand on a personal level, LDS level, Biblical level, and on a specific scriptural level.

Personal

I can’t understand why a caring God is going to split up my loving marriage and somehow combine me, my wife, and children with 108 billion other people. Here is how NewSeeker put it,

And how is that different than the scenario where a widow remarries, has more children with her second husband but remains sealed to her first husband. Her second husbands children will be sealed to her and her first husband, leaving him separated from his wife and children. Without his family for eternity, how is that caring.