A Catholic Look at Mormanism

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Icamay,

That was my point about mitochondrial DNA–that it shows the DNA back up the maternal ancestry, and that the maternal ancestry was neither “Jewish” (from the tribe of Judah) nor “Israelite”, because Manasseh (a son of Joseph) married someone who wasn’t an Israelite, so the maternal DNA was non-Israelite. All the descending maternal DNA would be non-Israelite, so there would be no match to Jewish or Israelite maternal DNA.

So the findings of the tests of your tribe mean that indeed the maternal DNA does not match Jewish DNA, which is 100% to be expected even if your ancestry descended from people described in the Book of Mormon (of which I would have no idea whether they do or don’t).
I’m sorry, that doesn’t make any sense. You may have missed that 94% of our people who agreed to the test - not all women - tested non-Israelite. And the men show results from both male and female sides. There is no way statistically that the answer is “they all go back to Israelite men marrying non-Israelite women”. The answer is clear: we are not Jewish.
 
Douay-Rheims, Matthew 22:23-32
[23] That day there came to him the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection; and asked him, [24] Saying: Master, Moses said: If a man die having no son, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up issue to his brother. [25] Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first having married a wife, died; and not having issue, left his wife to his brother.
[26] In like manner the second, and the third, and so on to the seventh. [27] And last of all the woman died also. [28] At the resurrection therefore whose wife of the seven shall she be? for they all had her. [29] And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God. [30] For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.
[31] And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken by God, saying to you: [32] I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Likewise, Luke 20:28-38, Douay-Rheims:
[28] Saying: Master, Moses wrote unto us, If any man’s brother die, having a wife, and he leave no children, that his brother should take her to wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. [Luke 20:28] [Latin] [29] There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. [30] And the next took her to wife, and he also died childless.
[31] And the third took her. And in like manner all the seven, and they left no children, and died. [32] Last of all the woman died also. [33] In the resurrection therefore, whose wife of them shall she be? For all the seven had her to wife. [34] And Jesus said to them: The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: [35] But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives.
[36] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal to the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. [37] Now that the dead rise again, Moses also shewed, at the bush, when he called the Lord, The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; [38] For he is not the God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to him.
I don’t think anything got lost in translation…🤷
 
Douay-Rheims, Matthew 22:23-32

Likewise, Luke 20:28-38, Douay-Rheims:

I don’t think anything got lost in translation…🤷
Icamay,

If you don’t see any difference in the translations from the Douay Rheims as compared with the other translation you sourced earlier, then you could look again at verse 30 in Matthew 22 and surely you will see a difference. You may not think it makes a “dime’s bit of difference”, but it really does have a substantive difference in meaning.

Peace to you, and Merry and blessed Christmas.😉
 
Icamay,

If you don’t see any difference in the translations from the Douay Rheims as compared with the other translation you sourced earlier, then you could look again at verse 30 in Matthew 22 and surely you will see a difference. You may not think it makes a “dime’s bit of difference”, but it really does have a substantive difference in meaning.

Peace to you, and Merry and blessed Christmas.😉
If anyone is picky about translations, it’s me. But, to tell you the truth, Parker. I don’t see any difference in the meaning between these two lines. Can you please point out the significant difference that you see, that seems to be so glaring to you?
30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

[30]*** For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.***

To tell you the truth, I tend to prefer the account of it quoted from Luke even better, because it clearly states what Jesus says in a much less confusing way for those who seem to have a problem understanding English grammar.

[34] And Jesus said to them: The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: [35] But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives.

[36] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal to the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

I think that version is much more clear as to the meaning of the entire discussion. Don’t you, Parker?
 
Looks pretty clear to me…

St. Jerome literally translated Aramaic into Latin. He was also most highly fluent in Hebrew…no dummy and totally opposed to compromise.
 
If anyone is picky about translations, it’s me. But, to tell you the truth, Parker. I don’t see any difference in the meaning between these two lines. Can you please point out the significant difference that you see, that seems to be so glaring to you?
30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

[30]*** For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.***

To tell you the truth, I tend to prefer the account of it quoted from Luke even better, because it clearly states what Jesus says in a much less confusing way for those who seem to have a problem understanding English grammar.

[34] And Jesus said to them: The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: [35] But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives.

[36] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal to the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

I think that version is much more clear as to the meaning of the entire discussion. Don’t you, Parker?
Hi, Telstar,

Since I have participated in discussing those verses many times in this forum, I think that whoever wants to find those conversations can find them and that will be good enough.

One of the things that I continually marvel and stand in awe about is that the Savior truly knew how to preserve free will choice while teaching eternal truths. He did so in the case of eternal marriage as in all other gospel topics. So you are exercising your free will choice to glean the meaning you want from those verses, and for me being a “Sadducee” or one of the “children of this world” is not something that appeals to me as desirable, so instead the Adam and Eve kind of marriage (the “what God hath joined together” and the “help meet” kind) is the example that Jesus taught about eternal marriage that does appeal to me, and those verses about some who are resurrected to be like the “angels in heaven” and their situation from their choices is precisely what they will have desired and chosen for themselves.
 
Parker…

You are a dear soul…but you are deflecting…

It is very clear Scripture’s words…we return to God to be in God…as spirit…and we wait for the final resurrection…and a new heaven and earth…and leave that up to God to surprise us…it is mystery at the final resurrection.

Let God be God. Mystery.
 
Parker…

You are a dear soul…but you are deflecting…

It is very clear Scripture’s words…we return to God to be in God…as spirit…and we wait for the final resurrection…and a new heaven and earth…and leave that up to God to surprise us…it is mystery at the final resurrection.

Let God be God. Mystery.
Kathleen,

Merry and blessed Christmas to you.

The Bible is a mystery to those who make it so. Peace to you.🙂
 
Remember…

It is the Holy Spirit that is at work through man. God is the author…and so what is clearly written would not be arbitrated into another meaning…

Marriage is sacred.

Parker, I watched a program come up in my most progressive town on their local tv. I was shocked because the hostess was dressed in a modified Indian type dress…she is American…but she wanted everyone to see how, in contrast to the current 7 billion people now on the planet…nevertheless, there are countries where their populations are dying, with the aging increasing in population and young and births declining.

They also talk about sexual relations…but outside of marriage and how these unions do not lead to many children if at all…so she even exclaims again that the institution of marriage is foundational to life itself.

It could be a piece use in Catholic institutions and I assume, Mormon as well.

Our great reward in this life is that the institution of permanent marriage is knowing it is the foundation of life and of a healthy society. We both agree on this.

But there is an even greater reality, a transcendent reality that awaits us with union in God…and with all those relationships that were based on God in Christ…

We must trust in God’s goodness that there will be some kind of fulfillment that this world cannot provide even in sanctified marriages…those permanent and united by and in Christ…we must accept Scripture’s teachings and in faith with hope realized that there will be no loss in heaven.

God bless you!
Kathleen
 
Hi, Telstar,

Since I have participated in discussing those verses many times in this forum, I think that whoever wants to find those conversations can find them and that will be good enough.

One of the things that I continually marvel and stand in awe about is that the Savior truly knew how to preserve free will choice while teaching eternal truths. He did so in the case of eternal marriage as in all other gospel topics. So you are exercising your free will choice to glean the meaning you want from those verses, and for me being a “Sadducee” or one of the “children of this world” is not something that appeals to me as desirable, so instead the Adam and Eve kind of marriage (the “what God hath joined together” and the “help meet” kind) is the example that Jesus taught about eternal marriage that does appeal to me, and those verses about some who are resurrected to be like the “angels in heaven” and their situation from their choices is precisely what they will have desired and chosen for themselves.
Is that a snide insult to anyone who rejects the LDS interpretation of that scripture (and me in particular), poorly disguised in ‘sweet talk’, Parker? I wish I could say that I’m surprised, but I’m really not. Touché! 😃

I’ve never seen you make any comment on that passage from Luke. You and your LDS friends always choose Matthew’s version, probably because it’s much easier for you to misinterpret in such a strange way than Luke’s (which is most likely why JS always pulled it out of context), and it’s the one that you all seem to be well rehearsed in using. I think you have a gross misconception of exactly who the Sadducee and the “children of this world” are in your whole scenario, posted above. I think it’s you and your friends that are choosing to follow your own will, along with the poor guidance of your founder (instead of following God’s will), in your convoluted twisting of scripture. But, if you want to continue to believe you’re right, then that’s certainly your own exercise in “free agency”.

I guess we’ll all have to wait for the end to see who’s actually right. I’m very confident in my own beliefs, but I do wish you all the best with your own. I will continue to pray for all LDS to some day figure out the real truth, as I always do. 😉
 
Is that a snide insult to anyone who rejects the LDS interpretation of that scripture (and me in particular), poorly disguised in ‘sweet talk’, Parker? I wish I could say that I’m surprised, but I’m really not. Touché! 😃

I’ve never seen you make any comment on that passage from Luke. You and your LDS friends always choose Matthew’s version, probably because it’s much easier for you to misinterpret in such a strange way than Luke’s (which is most likely why JS always pulled it out of context), and it’s the one that you all seem to be well rehearsed in using. I think you have a gross misconception of exactly who the Sadducee and the “children of this world” are in your whole scenario, posted above. I think it’s you and your friends that are choosing to follow your own will, along with the poor guidance of your founder (instead of following God’s will), in your convoluted twisting of scripture. But, if you want to continue to believe you’re right, then that’s certainly your own exercise in “free agency”.

I guess we’ll all have to wait for the end to see who’s actually right. I’m very confident in my own beliefs, but I do wish you all the best with your own. I will continue to pray for all LDS to some day figure out the real truth, as I always do. 😉
Telstar,

Why would it be an insult to say a person is going to have exactly the kind of life in eternity that they want to have, and prepare for and live for?

The Luke passage carries just as much a meaning as the Matthew passage, in that the “children of this world” is an expression that is not unusual in the Bible, so the “children of this world” being a differentiation from the “children of light” is not an unusual differentiation (see for example Luke 16:8), especially when considering that the Savior was addressing the unbelieving Sadducees and especially when looking at the words “marry, and are given in marriage” (reminding a reader of the New Testament of Matthew 24:28).

The “children of this world”, including the Sadducees, have marriages that are for this life only. They are content with that. The Sadducees were also being taught that there is a resurrection, and that those who kept the law of Moses but yet didn’t come to believe in Christ and learn about the eternal marriage covenant that He taught about in Matthew 19:8, will be “children of the resurrection” and will indeed receive that blessing and be as the angels in heaven, with no marriage. So He let them know that the resurrection is real, even for the “children of this world”.
 
I am sorry that your husband is being drawn to the Mormon Faith. I have “heard” that a large amount of converts are Catholic.
 
Telstar,

Why would it be an insult to say a person is going to have exactly the kind of life in eternity that they want to have, and prepare for and live for?
Why? Because I’ve seen those same kinds of comments made several times before by LDS, especially when they can’t think of any other way to respond (not just here on this forum). But, it’s OK, Parker. I completely understand why you do it. To tell you the truth, I’m perfectly happy being the ‘schmuck’ that doesn’t buy into all that gnostic ‘secret knowledge’ stuff, so I really don’t mind the subtle implications behind your saying it. If it makes you feel better, go for it, because it doesn’t affect me in the least. God alone will decide who goes where, Heaven or hell, and I’m OK with His decision. Your LDS beliefs have no bearing on any of it, anyway. If you think they do, then that’s totally up to you to take up with God. You will have made your own choice based on your beliefs. I just hope you’ll be happy, wherever you end up.
The Luke passage carries just as much a meaning as the Matthew passage, in that the “children of this world” is an expression that is not unusual in the Bible, so the “children of this world” being a differentiation from the “children of light” is not an unusual differentiation (see for example Luke 16:8), especially when considering that the Savior was addressing the unbelieving Sadducees and especially when looking at the words “marry, and are given in marriage” (reminding a reader of the New Testament of Matthew 24:28).
You’re absolutely correct that the passage in Luke means the same thing as Matthew, but that’s about as far as your being correct about it goes. The phrase “the children of this world” refers to all those who were still alive and kicking on the earth, as opposed to “they that shall be accounted worthy of that world”, which clearly refers to those that will be saved and live on the ‘New Earth’, after the resurrection. That entire discussion has absolutely nothing to do with marriage, per se, because it’s just a discussion of the resurrection with the Sadducees, who only used that foolish analogy about 7 brothers to try and trip Jesus up (it sure seems to have worked very well on you and JS). That’s the main point of the discussion, period. If you can’t understand that, just by reading it (without all of the ‘phraseology’ mumbo-jumbo, created by Joseph Smith to make it fit with what*** he*** wanted people to believe), then I certainly can’t help you and neither can anyone else. 🤷
The “children of this world”, including the Sadducees, have marriages that are for this life only. They are content with that. The Sadducees were also being taught that there is a resurrection, and that those who kept the law of Moses but yet didn’t come to believe in Christ and learn about the eternal marriage covenant that He taught about in Matthew 19:8, will be “children of the resurrection” and will indeed receive that blessing and be as the angels in heaven, with no marriage. So He let them know that the resurrection is real, even for the “children of this world”.
It doesn’t matter what kind of title you give to people, or how you choose to classify them. Every marriage between a man and a woman is only for as long as they are both alive on this earth. As soon as one of them dies, it’s all over, and the one that remains is free to remarry. That was the point that Jesus was making. It doesn’t mean diddlysquat how many times you get married because no one will remain married in the next life. When Jesus referred to them “putting away their wives”, He was referring to divorce, which is an abomination to God because no man has a right to divorce his wife for selfish reasons. That’s when the line “what God has joined together, let no man tear asunder” comes into play, but only in *this *life on earth. There is no such thing as ‘eternal marriage’ for anyone.

BTW… if that passage actually refers to ‘eternal marriage’, then why is it only LDS men that can have more than one wife, when that example clearly shows a woman having 7 husbands? :hmmm:
 
The Mormon Church specifically targets Catholics.

The whole construct of their beliefs is that our doctrines and priesthood justified the coming of Joseph Smith and Moroni.

Khalid gave us a reference to the Mormon beliefs…and it certainly looks like they have been studying our reaction to Mormonism and its changing beliefs…this reference dated only this year, 2011.

The Catholic Church had its liturgy, episcopal governing, and Creed basically set up 1900 years ago.

Keep praying for the Mormon people and note many of them are leaving Mormonism because they are finding out the truth about it online. I would think their greater number of converts will come from overseas who do not have access to information and its history as we do here. They are removing links online that provide deeper insight into their beliefs.

People forgive, but do not forget. It is about integrity of faith, and more particularly Who Christ is.
 
Icamay,

If you don’t see any difference in the translations from the Douay Rheims as compared with the other translation you sourced earlier, then you could look again at verse 30 in Matthew 22 and surely you will see a difference. You may not think it makes a “dime’s bit of difference”, but it really does have a substantive difference in meaning.

Peace to you, and Merry and blessed Christmas.😉
OK, we’ll use your KJV. Romans 7:2 -
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
 
The Mormon Church specifically targets Catholics.

The whole construct of their beliefs is that our doctrines and priesthood justified the coming of Joseph Smith and Moroni.

Khalid gave us a reference to the Mormon beliefs…and it certainly looks like they have been studying our reaction to Mormonism and its changing beliefs…this reference dated only this year, 2011.

The Catholic Church had its liturgy, episcopal governing, and Creed basically set up 1900 years ago.

Keep praying for the Mormon people and note many of them are leaving Mormonism because they are finding out the truth about it online. I would think their greater number of converts will come from overseas who do not have access to information and its history as we do here. They are removing links online that provide deeper insight into their beliefs.

People forgive, but do not forget. It is about integrity of faith, and more particularly Who Christ is.
Doctrine aside, I believe it is necessary to look at the Mormons and discover why OUR people are going toward LDS. I watch a lot of BYU TV to try to figure this out, and all of the stories have the same vein: wanted to know Jesus, felt empty in Mass, met with missionaries who could fill in the gaps, prayed to God for guidance, felt a calling, now am in a happy church family. The problem here is not the LDS, it’s us.

soapbox warning

This is a common theme among the Protestants I meet who are former Catholics trying to understand how I’m fulfilled in the Church. I learn that they only went to Mass, and not on a regular basis. It is difficult for them to understand that we attend Mass to worship God and study classes to learn about Him; Protestants and LDS fill their services with wonderful lectures and testimonies, and it’s easy to see how someone is filled with love for God from that.

My point: we, as Catholics, need to be encouraging our own to attend Bible study, group activies, and be more invovled in our prayer circles, in addition to regular Mass and sacraments. And we need to start with our youth. So in addition to praying for our separated Protestant and LDS brethern, I’d like to add a prayer for our own families and fellow parishioners, and a prayer that God may help us be the missionaries we need to be within our own faith.
 
OK, we’ll use your KJV. Romans 7:2 -
Hi, Icamay,

If you come back, will you go ahead and post verses 3 and 4 of Romans 7 so that a reader can see the context as we can then consider what Paul was teaching about the “law” (meaning the law of Moses) and about Christ as the “new marriage” (or new covenant)?" (I could, but this is so that I will have seen that you have also looked at those verses and considered their meaning.)
 
Doctrine aside, I believe it is necessary to look at the Mormons and discover why OUR people are going toward LDS. I watch a lot of BYU TV to try to figure this out, and all of the stories have the same vein: wanted to know Jesus, felt empty in Mass, met with missionaries who could fill in the gaps, prayed to God for guidance, felt a calling, now am in a happy church family. The problem here is not the LDS, it’s us.

soapbox warning

This is a common theme among the Protestants I meet who are former Catholics trying to understand how I’m fulfilled in the Church. I learn that they only went to Mass, and not on a regular basis. It is difficult for them to understand that we attend Mass to worship God and study classes to learn about Him; Protestants and LDS fill their services with wonderful lectures and testimonies, and it’s easy to see how someone is filled with love for God from that.

My point: we, as Catholics, need to be encouraging our own to attend Bible study, group activies, and be more invovled in our prayer circles, in addition to regular Mass and sacraments. And we need to start with our youth. So in addition to praying for our separated Protestant and LDS brethern, I’d like to add a prayer for our own families and fellow parishioners, and a prayer that God may help us be the missionaries we need to be within our own faith.
So basically, what you’re saying is that Catholics need to go back to their roots, and relearn what it means to live a truly Catholic life. When I was a kid, there was much more family participation in prayer (nightly Rosary), Bible reading, and other pious activities (visiting holy shrines, etc.) that slowly disappeared to make way for time spent listening to secular radio and watching TV. Once the computer came along, there were way too many other interests that took away from the family focus.

The same thing goes for the whole community of the Church, itself. People were spending much more time engaged in secular activities, so interest in the spiritual side of the Faith declined drastically. Not to mention the fact that children were not being taught as much about what being a Catholic really means, or what Catholics are supposed to believe. Most of those kids grew up not even understanding the Mass, so it’s no real surprise that so many of them turn to other churches that seem to be more socially active. They really don’t understand that there’s a substantial difference in what Catholics are supposed to believe, and what other churches believe. It really is a sad situation. 😦
 
You bet. I’ll go as far as verse 6:
3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
And we’ll look at that comparison to NASB:
2 For (B)the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were (C)made to die (D)to the Law (E)through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were (F)in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were (G)aroused by the Law, were at work (H)in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been (I)released from the Law, having (J)died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in (K)newness of (L)the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
and NIV:
2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
 
Icamay…

Totally agree with you…the Church was greatly impacted by the social revolution of the 60’s plus honest or deliberate misinterpretation of Vatican II, that further led to a breakdown of solid catechesis, discipline, and integrity of our faith.

We are now coming back on tract, and our present Pope Benedict is very aware of the need for balance between older practices and those how we live our faith today.

You can go from parish to parish and see different levels of participation. Some times the current pastor has enough on his plate and it is up to the laity to develop more community with appropriate activities. About 15 years ago, parish catechists put programs, classes together but people weren’t making the time to attend. Today people are on overload and leery about making any commitment…like a parish priest said awhile back…it takes time just to go through all the mail…

So the focus right now is to bring back fallen away Catholics and to be voice before secular atheism.
 
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