A Catholic Recovery Program?

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As a potential format to begin a Catholic-oriented recovery group, look at “Overcomers Outreach” for pamphlets for beginning a group. OO is a national group based in California that acts as a bridge between AA and a Christian-centered group. Whereas one maintains his/her participation in a primary 12 step group, OO is an adjunct for Christians in recovery regardless of type of addiction to focus on the triune God’s role in one’s recovery.

As you may already know from your research, not all Christian recovery groups are the same nor are they all supportive of AA. A few (in their literature) actually view AA as the work of the devil.

Any efforts to begin a “special interest” group that you seem to propose is the developing work of the group, not just one person as you know. If it works, it may grow.

Involving some recovering Catholic priests in your exploration stage would seem beneficial. The ones I personally know, however, have expressed no interest in establishing a Catholic-only AA group.

You might contact the Executive Director of the National Catholic Council on Alcoholism to discuss your idea and if such efforts have been proposed and developed in its long history.

Please keep us posted.

jblair
 
Hello All!

Here is my personal perspective. I am a recovering alcoholic and have found AA to be invaluable in keeping me away from the first drink. I am also catholic and am continually trying to improve my spiritual life. When I first came to AA 18 years ago, I had the wrong conception of God and the Catholic Faith that I was raised in. However by attending AA meeetings AND Mass regularly, I was able to get a different perception of God (that is as a merciful and compassionate God, not a God who punishes you for every little thing, or worse, a God who doesn’t care at all).

There is a lot of anti-catholic bias in AA. There people, like me, are trying to develop a new way of life and hopefully their attitude toward the catholic faith will improve.

AA’s 12 steps are based on the retreat exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola, so in that sense they are catholic. Also a lot of the AA expressions (i.e. Live and let Live, A Day at a Time, and so on) are biblical in nature.

Thanks for letting me give my perspective,

Tom
 
Tom noted that AA’s twelve steps were based on the spiritual exercises developed by Ignatius. I believe this is in error. Fr Ed Dowling, a spiritual “sponsor” to Bill W. and himself not an alcoholic, noted similarities after the AA twelve steps had been written and practiced. Bill was unaware of.these exercises. Most of the steps came from the Oxford Group, which Bill and Dr Bob were involved with prior to the development of AA.
jblair
 
TomS said:
AA’s 12 steps are based on the retreat exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola, so in that sense they are catholic. Also a lot of the AA expressions (i.e. Live and let Live, A Day at a Time, and so on) are biblical in nature.
Click to expand...
Congratulations on your 18 years of sobriety and thank you for adding to this discussion, but this about the 12-steps is not true, though I truly believe that you believe it to be true. But in fact that idea has become an urban legend in AA, Myself, unknowingly spread that false idea for a long time based on a couple writings by well meaning Catholics in AA.

Here in Bill W’s own words: “Our Twelve Steps were the result of my effort to define more sharply and elaborate upon these word-of-mouth principles so that alcoholic readers would have a more specific program: that there could be no escape from what we deemed to be essential principles and attitudes. This had been my sole idea in their composition. This enlarged version of our program had been set down rather quickly — perhaps in 20 or 30 minutes — on a night when I had been very badly out of sorts. Why the Steps were written down in the order in which they appear today and just why they were worded as they are, I had no idea whatever.” Bill W.(Co-founder of AA) Bill W. spoke at the NCCA national symposium in New York in 1960. nccatoday.org/

I would suggest that any that would be interested would go to NCCA web site (Resorces and Archives)and read the whole talk and you see how the idea got started, for it was Father Edward Dowling and his associations that implied that they saw this relationship with St Ignatius of Layola. Myself I find a better program in the writings *Introduction to the Devout Life *by St Francis DeSales

Truly may I suggest to any that want have more of an idea on Bill W and his influences may suggest these three books again.

*Bill W.: a biography of Alcoholics Anonymous cofounder Bill Wilson, Francis Hartigan. St. Martin’s Press, c2000.
Francis Hartigan he was Bill W’s wife’s secretary during her last days after Bill died.

*The Mystery of Moral Re-Armament, By Tom Driburg, Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1964
This is about the Oxford group, its methods of spirituality and its leader. The Oxford group had to change it’s name after being sued for using the name. They never had anything to do with Oxford, England. This book is hard to find, being out of print. I came across it by “chance” at my public library while trying to get more information about the Oxford group outside of AA material. The group still exist.

*The Aryan Christ, The Secret Life of Carl Jung, By Richard Noll,Random House
1997 - Carl Jung was big on Bill W’s list. and you will find the influence of Carl Jung thinking among co-founders and of AA. Have you ever wonder who Carl Jung really was? or what he believed or taught? This is a great read. I heard about the book on an EWTN radio interview.

With the Love of Christ

Bennie P ><>
 
"Is there any encouragement from belonging to Christ? . . . Then make me truly happy by agreeing whole-heartedly with each other, loving one another, and working together with one heart and purpose. Philippians 2:1-2

Are you alone, wondering where to turn for help? The church is a spiritual community that can–and should–support you through the tough times.
NewLivingTranslation.com

Taken from the Life Application Study Bible © 1988, 1996 by Tyndale House Publishers, Inc."

Not my favorite translation, but these little devotions seem to always be on target and many times go well with my other devotions and sometimes with the Daily Readings.

"“From today’s reading
Stop judging and you will not be judged.
Stop condemning and you will not be condemned.
Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Give, and gifts will be given to you;
a good measure, packed together, shaken down, and overflowing,
will be poured into your lap.
For the measure with which you measure
will in return be measured out to you.”

In light of today’s Scripture readings, Fr. Bob’s Prayer is:

God of Mercy, You are impossible to be like!! You stretch us beyond and expect us to be faithful to a truth we cannot imagine and yet which we know deep within. You have created us of earth and of heaven. We are matter and spirit, yet conformed and created in the image of Your Son. It is hard enough to be like David, when he had a chance to kill Saul, but backed off because Saul was still your anointed one. He kept bragging rights that he had the opportunity to use but chose not to. Now you want us to be like Jesus: forgive those who hate and threaten us, turning the other cheek, and expecting no repayment for debts! You are impossible to be like, Merciful Father. The vengeance in our soul cries for release and expression, and yet you have created us to be people of mercy, generosity and compassion. Your truth in us is so deep it hurts even as it challenges us. Will you really measure and judge us the way we measure and judge each other? That is terrifying, Lord! It seems so unfair. Breathe Your Spirit of Jesus within us again that we might be as merciful as You are. Keep us faithful to the truth you have implanted within your image in us. Fr. Bob - Society of the Little Flower littleflower.org "

May we all have a good time worshipping our Lord at Mass today and give encourgement to someone in need – Blessings

Bennie P ><>
 
Regarding the roots of AA and the twelve steps, I offer the following references.

The most prolific AA history author is Dick B., a recovering alcoholic, former California attorney now living in Hawaii, and Protestant Bible student, has written more than 20 books and hundreds of articles and talks, especially focusing on early Akron AA history and its relationship to Christianity. His websites include: dickb.com/index.shtml dickb-blog.com aa-history.com
http://aa-history.com/

I** would recommend beginning with http://dickb-blog.com One of his articles at this site relates to Bill W.'s statement that “all AA’s ideals were borrowed.” The introduction to the article follows:**

A.A.’s Twelve Well-Springs

All A.A.’s Ideas Were Borrowed, said Bill W.

By Dick B.
A.A. History, Alcoholics Anonymous History, A.A. History

**Early in its founding years, A.A.’s co-founder Bill Wilson put the torch to the idea that A.A. sprang from just one source. He said frankly that nobody invented A.A. He said all its ideas were borrowed. And Dr. Bob broadened the source picture by pointing out that all the basic ideas came from the Pioneers’ study of the Bible.

Unfortunately, neither co-founder put in writing in one place all the well-springs that produced the streams in A.A. Consequently commentators, both favorable to and critical of A.A. have had a field day with discussions of our roots. Most of them have a number of erroneous concepts so embedded in their historical approaches that they just never tell it like it is or like it was. Those who don’t like the Bible say that we left it behind in Akron. Those who don’t like the Oxford Group say that it taught us more about what not to do than what to do. And those who don’t like either the Bible or the Oxford Group have tried to quiet the waters by diverting the stream. They say A.A. is “spiritual, but not religious” even though any well-informed historian, scholar, clergyman, and semanticist would probably ask: “And what’s the difference?” Nobody really knows, but the distinction without a difference leaves many in a peaceful atheistic no man’s land (finish the article**).

JBlair
 
jblair, thanks again, I’m glad you brought this information into the discussion about Dick B’s research and I too would recommend all that are interested in AA history to check it out. This too has been a web site I covered early in my research about the “Christian” roots of AA.

There is a lot valuable information there. But unlike Dick B, me being Catholic, I still think a Catholic Program within the church is needed, but this information is great to have when working with new comers.

There are many things to be learned about AA. The fact he points out the difference in success rates between the earlier years and now is something everone who claims you will chase people away by pointing out the Jesus factor in recoverey should look at. From 75% success rate down to less then 5%? I don’t know how accurate those figures are but it is something to think about.

A local college student here did a study of the local AA’s and church affiliation. It seems that the people with the longest time of sobriety that attended AA meetings reguarly and claimed to be affiliated with any organized religion fell to almost zero. (that study was circulated at local meetings and anti-religion promoters used it to say that church didn’t keep you sober, only AA could) I don’t know how accurate it was because I do know of AA’s that do have long time sobriety and are active in local churches but their numbers I know of, are very small. On another point I know alcoholics that are active in Church, that are sober and have nothing to do with AA.

When a newcomer tells me they use to be active in any church (Catholic or non-Catholic), I suggest that along with their program they ought to renew that activity, any many tell me that old timers with 15, 20 plus years in AA tell them they don’t need church, because they have AA now. I **never **tell a new comer not to go to AA, even while in my heart I wonder…

Bennie P ><>
JMJ
 
A lot of this discussion has drifted to the negative side (my fault). I would like to shift the gear and tell what a Christ Centered program like Celebrate Recovery and other Christ Center programs are and by doing so further explore the need of a Catholic Christ Centered program of recovery. So please read carefully and prayerfully.

I’m involved in Celebrate Recovery and it is a program that deals with more the alcoholism and or substance abuse. My home group has small groups, with the men having groups for chemical dependency, anger issues (abusive behaviors), codependency and sexual addiction (porn, same sex attraction, adultery, etc.) and the women’s small groups deal with issues chemical dependency, codependency, codependent of chemically addicted, codependent of sexually addicted, eating disorders, love and relationship addiction, and sex/physical/emotional abuse.

My home group is very large, so it has the ability to divide the small groups into more specific areas. I have visited small home groups and because of them being small the divisions of issues has not been so thorough.

CR groups usually have one large meeting a week, which there is at most of them a time of gathering were food is available and people get to visit with each other in a non threatening atmosphere. After the gather time there is a half hour of praise worship (you know singing and prayer)(for me full worship is the mass) , followed by either a half hour of teaching about the steps, or testimony by someone that has solid recovery in their area (many of the testimonies touch all the issues that cause pain and most of the people that hear them). This time is followed when big group is dismissed into specific issues small groups.

The steps and how they fight in? During the week there are several small groups that meet to work the steps as a group, men groups for men and women groups for women. The groups work the steps together using workbooks that take them not only through the steps but a true faith journey and at the same time are building friendships and a solid group of accountability partners – true since of brotherhood/sisterhood.

These step groups can be specific issue groups or a combination of issues specific. I did my step study with a combination and it really helped me do a very deep and thorough inventory. My step group meet weekly for 15 months and many of the men from it are now leading other step groups.

It is funny and beautiful at the same time. People I would see during the gathering time for months and have no idea what issue they were in recovery for would show up in the chemical addiction small group and share they figured out in step study that the times they were abusive toward their wives they happen to be drinking, or the only time they visited porn sites on the internet was after drinking a few beers after work. And how many that wanted to quit drinking, figured out their drinking was triggered over their guilt over being sexually abused, or they were responsible for pushing a woman into getting an abortion. Deep growth is done in the step groups. And all the time putting Christ right in the center of it all.

My home recovery group is part and yet separate from the church that sponsors it and from time to time the pastor will have sermons related to recovery issues and many in the program are very involved in church’s other ministries and vise versa . (I was before the Holy Spirit lead me into full communion with the Catholic Church, now I oversee one of the ministries in my home Parish and participate in others). Otherwise Celebrate Recovery is bridge for the church body into healing.

This experience is why I see a need for Catholic Christ-Centered Recovery program.

Bennie P ><>
JMJ
 
When faced by our limitations, we must have recourse to the practice of offering to God the good works of others.St. Therese of Lisieux
 
Dear Bennie P,

I would like to suggest another source of information about Frank Buchman and Moral Re-Armament than Tom Driberg (your refer to his book ‘The Mystery of Moral Re-Armament’ but spell his name incorrectly). Garth Lean’s biography of Buchman is consultable on-line: frankbuchman.info/
and you can see all the references to AA. For more on Moral Re-Armament, now Initiatives of Change, see:iofc.org/en/

Driberg was a self-confessed promiscuous homosexual, and a double or triple agent, working both for the British Secret Service AND the KGB. He is hardly a trustworthy source for anything!
 
sbrass said:
Dear Bennie P,

I would like to suggest another source of information about Frank Buchman and Moral Re-Armament than Tom Driberg (your refer to his book ‘The Mystery of Moral Re-Armament’ but spell his name incorrectly). Garth Lean’s biography of Buchman is consultable on-line: frankbuchman.info/
and you can see all the references to AA. For more on Moral Re-Armament, now Initiatives of Change, see:iofc.org/en/

Driberg was a self-confessed promiscuous homosexual, and a double or triple agent, working both for the British Secret Service AND the KGB. He is hardly a trustworthy source for anything!
Click to expand...
OK - cross that book off the reading list, if you like, but the only info you are going to get from the sources you listed is from the Initiatives of Change (Moral Re-Armament) own web site. which is a group based deep into NEW AGE or NEW THOUGHT ideology.

This on Driberg I had no clue about. Anyways arguments of this type distracts
from the discussion, that is why I attempted to refocused the discussion away from the negative to the positive aspect of having a Catholic Christ Centerd recovery program.

Part of today’s Reading.

They came to Capernaum and, once inside the house,
he began to ask them,
*“What were you arguing about on the way?”*But they remained silent.
For they had been discussing among themselves on the way
who was the greatest.

Then he sat down, called the Twelve, and said to them,
“If anyone wishes to be first,
he shall be the last of all and the servant of all.”
Taking a child, he placed it in their midst,
and putting his arms around it, he said to them,
“Whoever receives one child such as this in my name, receives me;
and whoever receives me,
receives not me but the One who sent me.”

Bennie P ><>
Peace to you
 
I work with Moral Re-Armament, now Initiatives of Change. I am a committed member of the reformed church (a lay preacher). And I would strongly contest your labels of ‘new age or new thought ideology’. But look up what we say about our aims and methods and make up your own mind. IofC is not a church, in no way seeks to replace the church. It seeks to help people like me deepen their spiritual roots, to live what they talk about, and to seek common ground for action with others who believe differently.
 
Quote **"It will be useful to know a little bit more about the Oxford Groups from which AA has borrowed its methods. The Oxford Groups were founded by a Lutheran minister, Frank Buchman, in the early twenties. They gained their nickname from informal house parties around Oxford University. They called themselves the “First Century Christian Fellowship.” Their emphasis was upon mystical guidance, akin to the Pentecostal Word of Knowledge, if not as dramatic, surely as subjectivist.6

Focus was not upon the Bible as the revealed Word of God, but upon personal experience. The movement later became known as “Moral Rearmament” when Buchman declared that the nation could not save itself (1938) with guns but with guidance from God."7** end quote

Does this sound like New Thought, New Thought gnostic heresy?

This statement comes from A Reformed Critique of Alcoholics Anonymous
R. Scott Clark follow the link.
public.csusm.edu/guests/rsclark/AA.html
This article was first written in 1987. It was first published in the Reformed Herald in 1989. a reformed church publication.

*2 Peter 2:1 But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. *

Clark concludes his Critique with:

Quote *"The Church has been entrusted with the great commission to make disciples, even of alcoholics. AA constitutes a field of hurting, gospel needy people, white for the harvest. The question is, are we hungry enough to harvest?

It may be old fashioned, but we must describe to the alcoholic the depth of his sin and misery, how he can be redeemed from all his sins and misery and how he is to be thankful for such redemption.42 Obviously the presentation of the gospel must be sensitive and thoughtful and will vary from case to case, but the essentials, as we will see, cannot be compromised, even (or perhaps especially) for one as desperate as the alcoholic. We dare not throw too short a rope to a drowning man. Only the gospel rope will do." *end Quote

Want to know what the Church has to say about New Age? I suggest you read JESUS CHRIST THE BEARER OF THE WATER OF LIFE A Christian reflection on the “New Age”
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

I hope my spelling is OK? But I have trouble with any group that side tracks Christ in their message.

Bennie P ><>
JMJ

There is one , the only one, Jesus Christ that heals…
 
We are once again got away from the discussion. When it comes to recovery of chemical dependant persons the only thing that brings the person to sobriety is when they realize that enough is enough. When a person quits doing something that has totally consumed their life there is a big whole left. Once that demon is removed then he or she needs to have that whole filled with something else. For me as a Christian it was to fill it with the word of God, the teachings of Christ and submersing myself into it fully. The reason I see we need a Catholic Christ Centerd program is that we need to have the non-judgmental, loving and caring community which will help to fill that hole with the message of Christ love, so when our members of the body are ready to give up their destructive ways they will have the support they need. If we send them to outside influences, their chances to fill up that emptiness with ideas and spirituality contrary to Christ teachings will increase. Thus leading them down other destructive paths.

Luk 11:24 - 26 The unclean spirit when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and finding none, he saith, I will turn back unto my house whence I came out. And when he is come, he findeth it swept and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more evil than himself; and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first.

To build better Church communities as a whole is a reason for recovery programs within the Church itself. alcoholism isn’t the only area that we need to be concerned with, that would be self-centered of me if I only was concerned with keeping myself sober. It would be egotistic for me to think I could get someone else sober, because it is up to each person on their own to decided to accept the Graces God gives us through the Church, What we need is the conditions to be ready to accept those, and support those in need within our community. If they cannot find it within our community, our Church, then the chances of them coming back decreases. What amazes me more then the things that irritates me about AA, is all the fallen away Catholics in CR. they rejected AA, but found Christ in a non-Catholic church. What if we had a recovery program within the Church? Would we not be netting those souls instead of the Protestant Churches?
When I go to an AA meeting I’m going fishing with Christ, but where do I put the catch?

Bennie P ><>
 
**Irish bishops’ pastoral tackles alcohol abuse **

Dublin, Feb. 16, 2007 (CWNews.com) - The Catholic bishops of Ireland have launched a pastoral letter aimed at curbing alcohol abuse in the country.

The bishops’ pastoral, entitled Alcohol: The Challenge of Moderation, was introduced on February 16 by Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Dublin and Bishop Eamonn Walsh, the vice-chairman of the Irish bishops’ committee on alcohol abuse. The release of the statement was timed to precede a nationwide Day of Prayer for Temperance, to be observed on Sunday, February 18; and the beginning of Lent the following week.

Saying that the abuse of alcohol is “nothing short of a national tragedy,” Bishop Walsh cited statistics showing that Ireland leads the world’s nations in the rate of binge drinking by young people and in overall alcohol consumption per capita. The bishops’ pastoral, he said, “is an attempt to initiate a debate that will enable us all to gradually change unhealthy attitudes towards alcohol.”

While aiming to encourage public debate, the bishops also seek to persuade the faithful to alter their personal habits. “Moderation is a responsible approach to consuming alcohol. Some may choose abstinence which is equally laudable,” Bishop Walsh said.

The pastoral letter was unveiled at a Friday press conference in Dublin in front of a statue of Father Theobald Matthew, the Capuchin friar who start an international temperance movement in 1839. Within 5 years, Father Matthew had persuaded an estimated 3-4 million people in Ireland to “take the pledge” to abstain from alcohol, and his movement later spread to the US.

catholicireland.net/pages/index.php?nd=316&art=770

pioneertotal.ie/
 
TomS said:
Hello All!

Here is my personal perspective. I am a recovering alcoholic and have found AA to be invaluable in keeping me away from the first drink. I am also catholic and am continually trying to improve my spiritual life. When I first came to AA 18 years ago, I had the wrong conception of God and the Catholic Faith that I was raised in. However by attending AA meeetings AND Mass regularly, I was able to get a different perception of God (that is as a merciful and compassionate God, not a God who punishes you for every little thing, or worse, a God who doesn’t care at all).

There is a lot of anti-catholic bias in AA. There people, like me, are trying to develop a new way of life and hopefully their attitude toward the catholic faith will improve.

AA’s 12 steps are based on the retreat exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola, so in that sense they are catholic. Also a lot of the AA expressions (i.e. Live and let Live, A Day at a Time, and so on) are biblical in nature.

Thanks for letting me give my perspective,

Tom
Click to expand...
THANK YOU, Tom! If you are ever in Modesto and want a great AA meeting we are in room 9 of the JPII Center at St. Joseph’s Church …Wed nights is the Step and Tradition Study.

I too found the same similarities as Father Dowling did to the Exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola and have found them to be incredibly helpful in my recovery. What I have also discovered - and this was an incredible gift - is that by holding every meeting I attend to the Traditions and having the courage to say “I am not recovering from Catholicism, in fact thanks to AA I am back with the Holy Mother Church” the Catholics in the rooms in early recovery (10 years or less) have reached out to me for help. It has broadened the "responsibility statement’ and made me a better Catholic and a better AA member.
 
Sure it worked for you, But not for very many other people percentage wise overall! how many people share your sobriety date? So why as Catholics should we not put our energies into buliding more loving communities that have their own ability to support the members of the body that need healing? and why not have it available for more then alcoholics?

As a Catholic we must use the knowledge available along with our own personel experience, AA may show similarities to some of our Catholic teachings, but it also introduces many destructive spirituality aspects that should be avoided by people of faith.

The spiritual instruction a newcomer gets is only as good as his/her sponsor and if that sponsor kills the newcomer with the wrong advice it could and does kill many of them, physically and spiritually. My previous AA sponsor’s (a Catholic with decades of AA) comment to me about my involvement in Celebrate Recovery was; “I (him) can’t serve two gods, either its AA or that Jesus stuff, one or the other.” That is experience and when I add it with a little knowledge I find that more are lost in AA then found. (This man I truly love as a brother and would do most anything for him.)

Here is a few word’s from Dick B, oh he likes AA.

"**Dick B "promoter and reformer of AA writes **…*8. Professionals have conducted surveys among veterans, patients, and selected groups of AAs. The accuracy is not the subject of my knowledge. But the facts about present-day A.A. are these in their studies: (a) A definite 75% fail to maintain sobriety. (b) Probably no more than one to five percent maintain permanent sobriety. (c) As often as not, those who aligned with AA have a lower success rate than those who got sober without AA. (d) To date there has been no adequate survey of success or failure among those AAs who - like the pioneers - were born again Christians, reliant upon the Creator for help, and joined together in some Christian church or Bible fellowship, or prayer group.
  1. Within A.A. itself, among those of us who are in the trenches, going to meetings, helping newcomers, sponsoring people, and fellowshipping with AAs in outings, dances, retreats, movies, and the like, there is no mystery about success or failure. If you are active in A.A., you go to conferences and meetings where sobriety count-downs are conducted No matter how large or small the number of people attending, the count-downs invariably produce the same results: A large number will identify themselves as having 30 days or less; a fairly large number, 90 days or less; a fairly limited number with one year of sobriety; and then the staggering diminution in the number of people who have 5, 10, 15, 20 years - **with only a rare member claiming 25 or more years. Yes. Old-timers exist. But you won’t find them in A.A. meetings - not today. **
  2. There is a caveat about success rates. I took great heart in the portion of the Big Book that is read at most meetings: “Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.” Even when I couldn’t identify the path, I believed and counted on the veracity of the statement. For me, it is true. I thoroughly followed every step of the A.A. path. Furthermore, I put my trust in Almighty God; sought Him through His son, just as early AAs did; continued to grow in my understanding and fellowship with God and other believers through Bible study, prayer, fellowship, and witness. And I have not had a drinking or drug problem since two days before I entered A.A. in the Spring of 1986. Nor have **a small handful **of the men I have sponsored and who followed the same route.
  3. AAs can and should be the first to acknowledge that they have no monopoly on God; that just about any person alive can quit drinking if he or she wants to; that A.A. today has no special record of success that cannot be found in many other groups and therapies; and that - as with so many other organizations and disciplines - you probably get out of A.A. exactly what you put into it. If you throw yourself wholeheartedly into a life without the necessity for drinking, remember what excessive drinking does to you, and count on God for help in resisting temptation, you can be and have the same success as member of the A.A. Society that the early A.A. was when he “thoroughly followed their path.” *
    Dick B., PO Box 837, Kihei, HI 96753-0837; ph/fax: 808 874 4876; email: dickb@dickb.com; URL: dickb.com/index.shtml. "
Early AA success rates were so low that 50% of the stories in the back of the Big Book had to be changed before the 2nd edtion came out because the stories were by people who relapsed.

The need is not making AA work, but having another alternative and more choices for those in need.
Bennie P ><>
JMJ
 
Actually, Bennie, it is dumb to ask for ‘recovery rates’ from an annonymous program…there is no list of members and no way to track them. It is like the Celebrate Recovery people in Modesto who, if you ask them how they know they are 90% successful will tell you that if they never hear from anyone again they figure the person has gone off somewhere and stayed sober.

Look, this is not about my recovery is better than your recovery. I just happen to agree with Tom. You don’t. Go ahead and start your program and good luck to you. AA does not have the corner of spirituality nor does it claim to be the only way to stay sober. If starting your own program keeps you happy and sober then go for it and you are in my prayers.
 
LSK said:
… Look, this is not about my recovery is better than your recovery…
Click to expand...
You are right, and I appoligize if I allowed or caused the discussion to drift that away.

Bennie P ><>
JMJ
 
I would like to thank each and every one of that responded to this discussion and I have been looking over the responses and been in prayer about what was said and suggested.

I am truly am thankful for all of you for I can see the love of God in all of you even when disagreement arose.

I see a need and an idea of how to proceed has come out of this dicussion.

particulars are uncertain, but some the things I see has elements needed are:

To start with a group of of those that have been in recovery for a significant period of time. (such as two years as Leslie suggested)

Use the Mass as a starting point. For example to start with a group that meets after Mass(at my parish we have a 6 pm mass), once a week.
The meetings are to be focused on the spiritaulity as it relates to the Catholic Church and to 12 step and other recovery programs. Not a meeting to discredit any recovery program but add to or be supplemental to them in offering the spirituality of the Catholic Church.

The group would function as a bridge for those that have been fallen away from the Church back to the Church and as it develops to be a bridge for those in the Church seeking help as well as a resource to them to explore different sources of recovery.

The group would be a starting put to expand the different areas of recovery not only for those in recovery for alcoholism and drug addiction.

The whole idea is not to discredit other programs, but to build a community of those in recovery that are part of the body instead of outside.

These are just some of the ideas I have so far reaped from this dicussion.

I appoligize once again for allowing my predetermine ideas to drift into what might seem to be attacks upon any persons or groups. I ask for forgivness if I have hurt anyone.

Please add to this discussion.
 
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