A caution from Archbishop Chaput: dishonest mercy helps no one

[St_Francis]

I knew what you meant

Yay!!! I’m glad I am not totally obscure

That s all right, in fact. it adds to learning your language.

And that is always a good thing. I have been helping someone improve their English, and I am learning an amazing amount. Funny how that happens

 

[Ender]

Oh, oops, I misunderstood what you didn’t understand. I used the word enabling in the sense of helping someone do something bad, like when parents give money to a their drug-addicted son which allows him to continue using drugs. That kind of enabling.

Ah, my expectation of what the argument would be led me to misinterpret your comments. I was expecting…this:

God didn’t demand repentance when He decided to bring salvation to the world of sinners through Jesus Christ.

His mercy came prior to Jesus call for repentance.

The church has been very clear about this: without repentance there is no mercy. Christ’s mercy is available to all who ask for their sins to be forgiven, but not for those who hope for their sins to be ignored.*The starting-point for understanding indulgences is the abundance of God’s mercy revealed in the Cross of Christ. The crucified Jesus is the great “indulgence” that the Father has offered humanity through the forgiveness of sins and the possibility of living as children (cf. Jn 1: 12-13) in the Holy Spirit (cf. Gal 4: 6; Rom 5: 5; 8: 15-16).

However, in the logic of the covenant, which is the heart of the whole economy of salvation, this gift does not reach us without our acceptance and response. *(JPII, General Audience, 1999)
The response required of us is repentance.

• On the part of man only a lack of good will can limit {mercy}, a lack of readiness to be converted and to repent, in other words persistence in obstinacy, opposing grace and truth, especially in the face of the witness of the cross and resurrection of Christ. *(Dives in Misericordia)
  Ender

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Ah, my expectation of what the argument would be led me to misinterpret your comments. I was expecting…this:

The church has been very clear about this: without repentance there is no mercy. Christ’s mercy is available to all who ask for their sins to be forgiven, but not for those who hope for their sins to be ignored.The starting-point for understanding indulgences is the abundance of God’s mercy revealed in the Cross of Christ. The crucified Jesus is the great “indulgence” that the Father has offered humanity through the forgiveness of sins and the possibility of living as children (cf. Jn 1: 12-13) in the Holy Spirit (cf. Gal 4: 6; Rom 5: 5; 8: 15-16).

However, in the logic of the covenant, which is the heart of the whole economy of salvation, this gift does not reach us without our acceptance and response. (JPII, General Audience, 1999)
The response required of us is repentance.

• On the part of man only a lack of good will can limit {mercy}*, a lack of readiness to be converted and to repent, in other words persistence in obstinacy, opposing grace and truth, especially in the face of the witness of the cross and resurrection of Christ. (Dives in Misericordia)
  Ender

The point is, God brought salvation to mankind without repentance being the first thought.

God desires a contrite heart over sacrifice.

But God knew that there would be contrite hearts, otherwise he would not have given mankind mercy through the redemptive act of Jesus Christ.

Jim

 

[clem456]

So God enabled us sinners when through His mercy, Jesus came into the world to bring us salvation ?

Jim

Yes, he enabled sinners to see the good that he offers us, as revealed by God through Jesus, and pursue it through repentance and conversion.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yes, he enabled sinners to see the good that he offers us, as revealed by God through Jesus, and pursue it through repentance and conversion.

Of course this isn’t what you posted which I replied to.

But I’ll take it as your correction.

Jim

 

[Ender]

The point is, God brought salvation to mankind without repentance being the first thought.

God desires a contrite heart over sacrifice.

But God knew that there would be contrite hearts, otherwise he would not have given mankind mercy through the redemptive act of Jesus Christ.

Be that as it may, the question here is whether mercy and forgiveness are appropriate for those who will not repent of their sins. The church holds that they are not. What is your position?

Ender

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Be that as it may, the question here is whether mercy and forgiveness are appropriate for those who will not repent of their sins. The church holds that they are not. What is your position?

Ender

A person who has received the gift of faith and refuses to repent, is in grave sin.

That being said, a person who has not received the gift of faith, although lives in sin, does not know how to repent.

Remember, Jesus came to St Paul before he repented.

God gave the Blessed Mother the gift of being conceived without sin, in anticipation of Jesus redemptive act.

These two events alone show the mercy God has towards us, regardless of our ability to repent or not.

Jim

 

[clem456]

Be that as it may, the question here is whether mercy and forgiveness are appropriate for those who will not repent of their sins. The church holds that they are not. What is your position?

Ender

It’s not a question of appropriateness. There is nothing appropriate about the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. It is radically foolish in the eyes of the world. It is radically foolish because we are radically stupid and sinful, and God is radically merciful in giving himself to us despite our state.

God is merciful and forgiving. It’s part of his essential being. He is also just.
The two cannot be opposed to one another because there is no division in God.
Like so many other things, mercy/justice is not either/or, it is both/and.

God is here with mercy and justice, faith is our response. His mercy is always there, we have a choice to make in accepting it. It is justice that he honor our free will.

The Church proclaims Christ. He is Good News.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

God brought justice to the world in Jesus Christ death on the cross.

Many people who speak of God being just in the same context of Him being merciful, are generally looking for God’s revenge.

They won’t be satisfied.

Jim

 

[7_Sorrows]

I agree with Archbishop Chaput.

 

[LongingSoul]

God brought justice to the world in Jesus Christ death on the cross.

Many people who speak of God being just in the same context of Him being merciful, are generally looking for God’s revenge.

They won’t be satisfied.

Jim

I agree, Jim. People, especially those of us with the desire to follow Christ and have access to so much holy literature, should really strive to understand what mercy is and not try to conform it to their own distorted concept. St Faustina clearly distinguishes the two door. One of mercy and one of justice.

“While there is yet time, let them have recourse to the fountain of my mercy.” (848) … He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice.” (1146)

“I demand from you deeds of mercy which are to arise out of love for me. You are to show mercy to your neighbors always and everywhere. You must not shrink from this or try to excuse yourself from it.” (742)

We have to strive to see how the door of mercy differs from the door of justice and not try to make them the same thing so that we don’t have to change any attitudes.

 

[clem456]

God brought justice to the world in Jesus Christ death on the cross.

Many people who speak of God being just in the same context of Him being merciful, are generally looking for God’s revenge.

They won’t be satisfied.

Jim

I think we have to be careful about imputing motivations to people.
The Christian life is not about our satisfaction, so let’s not worry about who’s satisfied and who’s not. .

The Church proclaims Christ.

God is just. God is merciful.
Why can’t we simply let the Church speak? If people want to pick and choose in an either/or fashion, then that’s the risk we take. Christianity is risky. It’s ripe for manipulation and misinterpretation.

Still, God is who he is and that’s gonna have to be enough for me.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Indeed, the Catechism (2447) describes works of mercy as “charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities.” How then may we best help our neighbor in spiritual need? The Catechism goes on to say, “Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently.”

Which of course means that lame excuse making and personal selfishness have no place in a relationship with God.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

ENCYCLICAL LETTER
DEUS CARITAS EST
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
BENEDICT XVI
TO THE BISHOPS
PRIESTS AND DEACONS
MEN AND WOMEN RELIGIOUS
AND ALL THE LAY FAITHFUL
ON CHRISTIAN LOVE

My heart recoils within me, my compassion grows warm and tender. I will not execute my fierce anger, I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst” (Hos 11:8-9). God’s passionate love for his people—for humanity—is at the same time a forgiving love. It is so great that it turns God against himself, his love against his justice. Here Christians can see a dim prefigurement of the mystery of the Cross: so great is God’s love for man that by becoming man he follows him even into death, and so reconciles justice and love. w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est.html

As Pope Benedict XVI wrote, God’s justice was served in Jesus sacrifice on the Cross.

Jim

 

[St_Francis]

A person who has received the gift of faith and refuses to repent, is in grave sin.

That being said, a person who has not received the gift of faith, although lives in sin, does not know how to repent.

Remember, Jesus came to St Paul before he repented.

God gave the Blessed Mother the gift of being conceived without sin, in anticipation of Jesus redemptive act.

These two events alone show the mercy God has towards us, regardless of our ability to repent or not.

Jim

The reason I want to respond to what you post is the context of there being some bishops who propose that divorced and remarried people without annulments and with no change in marital habits should be allowed to receive the Body and Blood of our Lord, something which the Church has forbidden due to the apparent objective fact of the couple’s being in a state of mortal sin due to their lack of sufficent repentance to amend their lives.

Because Bishop Chaput’s comments and ours were made in response to this proposal and that of allowing "married’ homosexuals to recieve, the question of mercy has come up because those who propose that these publically unrepentant sinners be allowed to recieve under the guise of mercy.

Your comments would be appropriate if we were talking about mercy in general, but in this context seem to indicate agreement with those who propose the invitation of sinners to receive the Eucharist, and even a slight disparagement of those who disagree.

So I ask flat out: are your comments to be taken in the context of the topic to mean that you think that those unrepentantly and objectively in mortal sin should be permitted by the Church to receive Communion?

 

[clem456]

As Pope Benedict XVI wrote, God’s justice was served in Jesus sacrifice on the Cross.

Jim

Of course.

Jim, I’m really not sure what it is you’re debating.
It can’t be the fact that God is merciful, and God is just.
Right?

The reality of God’s redemption on the Cross does not mean justice is no longer an attribute of God. It is proof that he is just, and that he is mercy. He is just in his mercy, he is merciful in his justice.
It is not an either/or. The two are simply inseparable in God.

Our choice: that is a different matter. We must choose God, he will not force himself on us. Isn’t it we who make a distinction where there is none, by our choices?

Truly
:banghead:

It seems that justice is badly misunderstood, and has been twisted to become equated with the word “damnation”.

Justice does not equal damnation.
God does not wish damnation for us. He offers us redemption.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So I ask flat out: are your comments to be taken in the context of the topic to mean that you think that those unrepentantly and objectively in mortal sin should be permitted by the Church to receive Communion?

Of course those people of faith who have not repented and are living in the state of mortal sin should not receive Holy Communion.

But then, the Church has to provide an avenue for those who are contrite, to receive Holy Communion.

Also, keep this in mind when you tell a couple who were divorced and have been happily married and have had children together, for the past 40 years, that they’re living in mortal sin and think about how Jesus would treat them ?

This is what Pope Francis is mulling over.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

[QUOTEclem456

Justice does not equal damnation.
God does not wish damnation for us. He offers us redemption.
[/QUOTE]

God’s justice(according to human understanding of justice) would’ve demanded that he destroy the human race entirely from the first sin.

He did not, but provided justice through Jesus Christ death on the Cross.

This is an example of his mercy and justice has been served through Jesus Christ

Jim

 

[clem456]

God’s justice(according to human understanding of justice) would’ve demanded that he destroy the human race entirely from the first sin.

He did not, but provided justice through Jesus Christ death on the Cross.

This is an example of his mercy and justice has been served through Jesus Christ

Right. The human understanding of justice is not God’s understanding, or is not always in step with it.
He has taken justice upon himself on our behalf. He is merciful.

He is also a respecter of free will, because he is love.

Justice is at the service of love. God loves. Love is a relationship. It asks for a free response.

Do you believe that God’s respect for our free will is just? In his constant and enduring offer of mercy, will God violate your free will? If he did, would that be just?

Mercy cannot be entered into without a free choice.

 

[Thomas_White]

God’s justice(according to human understanding of justice) would’ve demanded that he destroy the human race entirely from the first sin.

He did not, but provided justice through Jesus Christ death on the Cross.

This is an example of his mercy and justice has been served through Jesus Christ

Jim

Yes, it is an example of God’s mercy and justice through Christ. The Original Sin of Adam resulted in the corruption of free will. Sins of the flesh in particular became man’s fate, but what was then impossible for man became possible through God’s grace and mercy.