A caution from Archbishop Chaput: dishonest mercy helps no one

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Also, if the act runs contrary to Church teaching, how much should a Catholic attempt to dissuade or prevent a person from acting, assuming they state that their conscience is certain.

Abortion, or capital justice (Orestes) come to mind, though the question would apply to any act that the Church describes as ‘Grave Matter’

Should the statement on the part of the one attempting the act, that their conscience is certain, require the Catholic to acquiesce? Or should the continue to dissuade?
 
I’ve thought what makes this difficult to see is that it involves objective truth known subjectively, for “man has in his heart a law inscribed by God…” (CCC 1776). That this is described as “in the heart” seems to mean it is more of a subjective feeling experienced much like guilt is experienced. It is to know right from wrong, and to err leads one to ultimately realize it through guilt.

Cardinal Ratzinger devotes much of the early part of the letter to explaining the problems of a purely subjective conscience. This refutation, however, is not a refutation of conscience’s capacity to discern objective moral truth, and the conclusions of the main body of the letter make this very clear.

Ratzinger is most dismissive of legalism.
I’d wholeheartedly agree with that especially having worked in a Catholic counselling organisation for a long time inspired by Marist spirituality… but mostly having done the Spiritual Exercises of St Ignatius. In that forum one is encouraged to pay special attention to the emotions in discernment.

There’s also the reality that sin is not an abstract idea that affects the scales of justice in
a heavenly court room… It is an injury to Jesus himself. Examining yourself in relation to the Jesus of your gospel contemplations impacts hugely on the emotional experience.
 
At whatever level the guilt may be said to lie, it is still guilt, and this is the point. The mere fact that we have followed a certain judgment of our conscience does not absolve us of the sins we commit. This is why I have continued to push the question of what you think is implied by Ratzinger’s comments, and a misunderstanding of this is what led to ProdigalSun’s comment: “I’m happy that my conscience lets me off the hook.” This is an incorrect interpretation of what the church means when she says we must follow our conscience.
Hmm…I see. ProdiganSun misunderstood a comment I made and you think I need to explain this. Well, what I think is maybe it is time for you to provide your own interpretation of Cardinal Ratzinger’s letter so as to clear this up. :yukonjoe:
 
Also, if the act runs contrary to Church teaching, how much should a Catholic attempt to dissuade or prevent a person from acting, assuming they state that their conscience is certain.

Abortion, or capital justice (Orestes) come to mind, though the question would apply to any act that the Church describes as ‘Grave Matter’

Should the statement on the part of the one attempting the act, that their conscience is certain, require the Catholic to acquiesce? Or should the continue to dissuade?
An example I can cite… one of my brothers stopped going to Mass when he left home. Whenever he came home after that my Mother made him go to Mass as a condition of staying there. It became a conundrum for her and she asked my uncles advice (He’s a veteran Priest) and he advised her to stop forcing him to go.

As for the hot topic issues like abortion, contraception and homosexuality Pope Francis seems to be encouraging a more unconditionally welcoming approach based on the fact that Catholic teaching is well known on those these days. During the synod discussions I contemplated a situation where if I had a unmarried cohabiting child wanting to return home for Christmas with the partner… what to do. I would certainly provide separate sleeping situations but at the same time I’d have to strive to recognise the good in the illicit union. It’s a developing attitude that I’m depending on the Church to help me grow going forward because I do trust that that kind of welcome and acceptance will shine a light on some obscured truth much needed.
 
Yes, I know. It is part of our God-given nature, and surely this is why conscience must be obeyed. What I wonder is whether this was part of our nature before the Fall (Original Sin)? This is difficult. I tend to think it was.
Oh no! My brain is already :hypno:
Yes it is difficult. Because it is practical.
I can go yadayadayada and we meet when we ve both had a bad day and you do not like what I ve cooked with much effort and :eek: all the yadayadayada goes into thin air.
I do not know which voice we have stifled,and I am glad we have a Vicar of Christ who is alive and kicking.
Here is Brother Jay s voice echoing in my heart : " Because it is the loving thing to do" .
Yes,it is difficult.
I ll take a break. I have " aboriginal" work to do at home.
A pleasure as usual to be with you all.
 
I would disagree, as the Church considers the conscience to be a function of the intellect obeying Reason.

Could you clarify where the Church teaches that it is emotive in nature?

In Pope Benedict’s example, which Longing mentioned, we do see objective truth, the punishment of murder. The certitude of judgement did not rest on Orestes’ ‘feelings’ about his mother or Aegisthus, but on the need of the crime to be avenged.

I presume that you would agree that the a certain judgment to kill someone would need to rest on objective truth, not a feeling that one must kill them.
We have already discussed this at length in another thread. It is ultimately a philosophical or theological question, and I provided my understanding of the question in that thread. The question arises with Descartes following the Scholastic period and the beginnings of modern philosophy. It concerns the philosophical question of Immanence, in the sense of whether God can be known by the human intellect alone (a rather grand notion). A lot follows from this, including concepts of faith, belief and spirituality. With respect to Catholic teaching, CCC 1776 is clear enough with respect to the conscience, and what it says is no accident: God’s law is inscribed on the heart.

In fact, it is the subsequent judgment made by the intellect with respect to the certain judgment of conscience where error can occur (though this is the not the only possibility for error). But we have already been all though this in the other thread.
 
Yes, it makes sense, and I am for happy for your finding joy in reading the Epilogue of the letter.

At the beginning of the letter Cardinal Ratzinger states the following: “It is of course undisputed that one must follow the certain judgment of conscience or at least not act against it.” This is Ratzinger’s premise, and it is repeated in his conclusion at the end of the letter.

In ‘Section 2, Newman and Socrates: Guide to Conscience’, Ratzinger says the following concerning Newman’s concept of conscience:

“Much more than that, conscience signifies the perceptible and demanding presence of the voice of truth in the subject himself. It is the overcoming of the mere subjectivity in the encounter of the interiority of man with the truth from God.”

This quote contains the very essence of the teaching. Leading up to it, and throughout Section 1, Ratzinger describes the perils of a superficial (purely subjective) conscience. In the next sentence following the one quoted immediately above, Ratzinger says’ “But whether the judgment of conscience or what one takes to be such, is always right, or indeed whether it is infallible, is another question.” There follows a discussion of the superficial conscience. In the thread, remarks taken from it were quoted entirely out of context (by another person) as though they were the Cardinal’s actual teaching on conscience. With charity and all due respect, I assume this was in error.
 
Hmm…I see. ProdigalSun misunderstood a comment I made and you think I need to explain this.
The reason I used his comment as an example is because it is a reasonable interpretation of the implication of your/Benedict’s position, and what I am trying to get you to do is to clarify this point. Why are you so unwilling to address this?
Well, what I think is maybe it is time for you to provide your own interpretation of Cardinal Ratzinger’s letter so as to clear this up.
Sure. If we do something we think is wrong, the act is sinful. Believing it to be a sin makes it a sin for us whether or not it is in fact objectively sinful. Doing something we believe is right, however, does not justify doing an act that is objectively sinful. Our believing it to be right does not make it so.

If we follow the certain judgment of our conscience and err by doing something objectively sinful we will very likely be held accountable for that sin. If in addition we know that what we do is contrary to what the church teaches then we will surely be held accountable unless it is the church that is wrong.

OK, now it’s your turn.

Ender
 

In ‘Section 2, Newman and Socrates: Guide to Conscience’, Ratzinger says the following concerning Newman’s concept of conscience:

“Much more than that, conscience signifies the perceptible and demanding presence of the voice of truth in the subject himself. It is the overcoming of the mere subjectivity in the encounter of the interiority of man with the truth from God.”

In the thread, remarks taken from it were quoted entirely out of context (by another person) as though they were the Cardinal’s actual teaching on conscience. With charity and all due respect, I assume this was in error.
Because dishonesty is a bad thing for discussion, here is the quote in context (again):
For Newman, the middle term which establishes the connection between authority and subjectivity is truth. I do not hesitate to say that truth is the central thought of Newman’s intellectual grappling. Conscience is central for him because truth stands in the middle. To put it differently, the centrality of the concept conscience for Newman, is linked to the prior centrality of the concept truth and can only be understood from this vantage point. The dominance of the idea of conscience in Newman does not signify that he, in the nineteenth century and in contrast to “objectivistic” neo-scholasticism, espoused a philosophy or theology of subjectivity. Certainly, the subject finds in Newman an attention which it had not received in Catholic theology perhaps since Saint Augustine. But it is an attention in the line of Augustine and not in that of the subjectivist philosophy of the modern age. On the occasion of his elevation to cardinal, Newman declared that most of his life was a struggle against the spirit of liberalism in religion. We might add, also against Christian subjectivism, as he found it in the Evangelical movement of his time and which admittedly had provided him the first step on his lifelong road to conversion. Conscience for Newman does not mean that the subject is the standard vis-a-vis the claims of authority in a truthless world, a world which lives from the compromise between the claims of the subject and the claims of the social order. Much more than that, conscience signifies the perceptible and demanding presence of the voice of truth in the subject himself. It is the overcoming of mere subjectivity in the encounter of the interiority of man with the truth from God. The verse Newman composed in 1833 in Sicily is characteristic: “I loved to choose and see my path but now, lead thou me on!” Newman’s conversion to Catholicism was not for him a matter of personal taste or of subjective, spiritual need. He expressed himself on this even in 1844, on the threshold, so to speak of his conversion: “No one can have a more unfavorable view than I of the present state of Roman Catholics.” Newman was much more taken by the necessity to obey recognized truth than his own preferences, that is to say, even against his own sensitivity and bonds of friendship and ties due to similar backgrounds. It seems to me characteristic of Newman that he emphasized truth’s priority over goodness in the order of virtues. Or, to put it in a way which is more understandable for us, he emphasized truth’s priority over consensus, over the accommodation of groups. I would say, when we are speaking of a man of conscience, we mean one who looks at things this way. A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth. In this regard, Newman is related to Britain’s other great witness of conscience, Thomas More, for whom conscience was not at all an expression of subjective stubbornness or obstinate heroism. He numbered himself, in fact, among those fainthearted martyrs who only after faltering and much questioning succeed in mustering up obedience to conscience, mustering up obedience to the truth which must stand higher than any human tribunal or any type of personal taste. Thus two standards become apparent for ascertaining the presence of a real voice or conscience. First, conscience is not identical to personal wishes and taste. Secondly, conscience cannot be reduced to social advantage, to group consensus or to the demands of political and social power.
Let us take a side-look now at the situation of our day. The individual may not achieve his advancement or well-being at the cost of betraying what he recognizes to be true, nor may humanity. Here we come in contact with the really critical issue of the modern age. The concept of truth has been virtually given up and replaced by the concept of progress. Progress itself “is” truth. But through this seeming exaltation, progress loses its direction and becomes nullified.
ewtn.com/library/curia/ratzcons.htm
Let the reader read.
 
The reason I used his comment as an example is because it is a reasonable interpretation of the implication of your/Benedict’s position, and what I am trying to get you to do is to clarify this point. Why are you so unwilling to address this?
There are several reasons for why I have been reluctant to try to explain what the future Pope Benedict XVI has said, and I would have thought it was obvious. It is of course his teaching and not mine, and what the future Pope Benedict XVI said, while the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, certainly needs no help from me. The other reason is we have already discussed the question of conscience in another thread, I reasonably believe you will disagree with whatever I might say, and there seems little sense in continuing the discussion interminably. The final reason is I really don’t know what it is you expect me to clarify. The teaching of both Cardinal Ratzinger and the CCC is already clear: A human being must obey the certain judgment of his conscience. I don’t know what needs explaining.

When I provided links to what Cardinal Ratzinger said about conscience, a portion of his criticism concerning a superficial conscience was quoted out of context as though it were Ratzinger’s actual teaching about conscience. I was then accused of dishonesty when I quoted the preface to these critical remarks, and I did decide not to respond to what I knew was totally misunderstood. If a discussion becomes uncharitable, I no longer wish to participate. I mean, who needs the grief?
Sure. If we do something we think is wrong, the act is sinful. Believing it to be a sin makes it a sin for us whether or not it is in fact objectively sinful. Doing something we believe is right, however, does not justify doing an act that is objectively sinful. Our believing it to be right does not make it so.
If we do something we think is wrong that it is not objectively a sinful act but it is a nevertheless a sin because we believe it was, is this not a subjective concept of morality and thus moral relativism? But if so, why then is its opposite not true when we do something that we believe is right, but it isn’t, then a sinful act?
If we follow the certain judgment of our conscience and err by doing something objectively sinful we will very likely be held accountable for that sin. If in addition we know that what we do is contrary to what the church teaches then we will surely be held accountable unless it is the church that is wrong.

OK, now it’s your turn.
What you don’t seem to understand is that no one has said that if a person errs (does something objectively sinful) as the result of obeying the certain judgment of conscience that it is not wrong. It has been pointed out numerous times that the guilt is then at a deeper level.

If we know that what we do is contrary to church teaching and it is the teaching that is wrong, that we will then not be held accountable is indeed what I believe Cardinal Ratzinger is saying.

Is it this quotation that is in dispute?

“Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority, there stands one’s own conscience which must be obeyed before all else, even if necessarily against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority” --Joseph Ratzinger, (in: Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II).

First and foremost, this is what Cardinal Ratzinger has had. To understand the comment, I believe it is necessary to understand the letter from Cardinal Ratzinger that was provided by a link to it. It is complex. Let’s be honest. Anything I say will be disputed. So, if you disagree with what Cardinal Ratzinger has said, I think it would be better for you to say so and explain why. I could surely comment, but for the stated reason I just don’t wish to.
 
Because dishonesty is a bad thing for discussion, here is the quote in context (again):

ewtn.com/library/curia/ratzcons.htm
Let the reader read.
“Much more than that, conscience signifies the perceptible and demanding presence of the voice of truth in the subject himself. It is the overcoming of mere subjectivity in the encounter of the interiority of man with the truth from God.”
 
“Much more than that, conscience signifies the perceptible and demanding presence of the voice of truth in the subject himself. It is the overcoming of mere subjectivity in the encounter of the interiority of man with the truth from God.”
Well that’s very nice.
How does that support your assertion that one must follow one’s conscience even when it contradicts truth, and that the Church is expected to conform it’s proclamation and practice of the truth to this subjectivity?

There is no conceivable way that Cardinal Ratzinger’s can be taken to support your position.
And that’s ok Thomas, this really isn’t for you, it’s for the readers who might simply want to see what he says without dishonest and selective spin.
Here’s what he says, in fuller context, again:
For Newman, the middle term which establishes the connection between authority and subjectivity is truth. I do not hesitate to say that truth is the central thought of Newman’s intellectual grappling. Conscience is central for him because truth stands in the middle. To put it differently, the centrality of the concept conscience for Newman, is linked to the prior centrality of the concept truth and can only be understood from this vantage point. The dominance of the idea of conscience in Newman does not signify that he, in the nineteenth century and in contrast to “objectivistic” neo-scholasticism, espoused a philosophy or theology of subjectivity. Certainly, the subject finds in Newman an attention which it had not received in Catholic theology perhaps since Saint Augustine. But it is an attention in the line of Augustine and not in that of the subjectivist philosophy of the modern age. On the occasion of his elevation to cardinal, Newman declared that most of his life was a struggle against the spirit of liberalism in religion. We might add, also against Christian subjectivism, as he found it in the Evangelical movement of his time and which admittedly had provided him the first step on his lifelong road to conversion. Conscience for Newman does not mean that the subject is the standard vis-a-vis the claims of authority in a truthless world, a world which lives from the compromise between the claims of the subject and the claims of the social order. Much more than that, conscience signifies the perceptible and demanding presence of the voice of truth in the subject himself. It is the overcoming of mere subjectivity in the encounter of the interiority of man with the truth from God. The verse Newman composed in 1833 in Sicily is characteristic: “I loved to choose and see my path but now, lead thou me on!” Newman’s conversion to Catholicism was not for him a matter of personal taste or of subjective, spiritual need. He expressed himself on this even in 1844, on the threshold, so to speak of his conversion: “No one can have a more unfavorable view than I of the present state of Roman Catholics.” Newman was much more taken by the necessity to obey recognized truth than his own preferences, that is to say, even against his own sensitivity and bonds of friendship and ties due to similar backgrounds. It seems to me characteristic of Newman that he emphasized truth’s priority over goodness in the order of virtues. Or, to put it in a way which is more understandable for us, he emphasized truth’s priority over consensus, over the accommodation of groups. I would say, when we are speaking of a man of conscience, we mean one who looks at things this way. A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth. In this regard, Newman is related to Britain’s other great witness of conscience, Thomas More, for whom conscience was not at all an expression of subjective stubbornness or obstinate heroism. He numbered himself, in fact, among those fainthearted martyrs who only after faltering and much questioning succeed in mustering up obedience to conscience, mustering up obedience to the truth which must stand higher than any human tribunal or any type of personal taste. Thus two standards become apparent for ascertaining the presence of a real voice or conscience. First, conscience is not identical to personal wishes and taste. Secondly, conscience cannot be reduced to social advantage, to group consensus or to the demands of political and social power.
Let us take a side-look now at the situation of our day. The individual may not achieve his advancement or well-being at the cost of betraying what he recognizes to be true, nor may humanity. Here we come in contact with the really critical issue of the modern age. The concept of truth has been virtually given up and replaced by the concept of progress. Progress itself “is” truth. But through this seeming exaltation, progress loses its direction and becomes nullified.
 
The final reason is I really don’t know what it is you expect me to clarify. The teaching of both Cardinal Ratzinger and the CCC is already clear: A human being must obey the certain judgment of his conscience. I don’t know what needs explaining.
What needs explaining is what it implies. The question I repeatedly ask is quite clear: if in following the certain judgment of our conscience we commit a sin, can we be held accountable for it? You repeat the fact that we must follow our conscience, which I have not disputed, but you steadfastly refuse to comment on whether or not that alone justifies our action. You have admitted that even the certain judgment can err, but you have not said whether we may be accountable for that error.
If a discussion becomes uncharitable, I no longer wish to participate. I mean, who needs the grief?
That was someone else’s comment, not mine. I have not been uncharitable; I have been persistent.
If we do something we think is wrong that it is not objectively a sinful act but it is a nevertheless a sin because we believe it was, is this not a subjective concept of morality and thus moral relativism?
No. It is part of the church’s teaching on what makes an action a sin. Both the intrinsic nature of the act itself as well as the intention (and to a lesser extent the circumstances) determine whether an act is moral or immoral. If either is immoral the action is immoral. If we do something we believe is wrong, that action becomes a sin because our intent was disordered.
But if so, why then is its opposite not true when we do something that we believe is right, but it isn’t, then a sinful act?
In the case of actions that are intrinsically evil, they remain evil regardless of our intent. Again, if either the intent or the act is immoral, we have committed a sin. In the first example, the intent was immoral; in the second, the act was immoral.
If we know that what we do is contrary to church teaching and it is the teaching that is wrong, that we will then not be held accountable is indeed what I believe Cardinal Ratzinger is saying.
Good, this is half the answer I am looking for (it is also what I stated above). Now how about commenting on the other half: will we be held accountable if the teaching is not wrong? Let me also point out what you “believe Cardinal Ratzinger is saying” is an admission that his comment does indeed need interpretation.
So, if you disagree with what Cardinal Ratzinger has said, I think it would be better for you to say so and explain why.
I don’t disagree with what he said. I am asking for your understanding of what he didn’t say: if we sin by following a certain judgment of our conscience will we be held accountable?

Ender
 
How does that support your assertion that one must follow one’s conscience even when it contradicts truth, and that the Church is expected to conform it’s proclamation and practice of the truth to this subjectivity?
To be accurate, this is not really what Thomas has said. He said one must follow his conscience even when it conflicts with church teaching. What he has not said is what that implies, rather he has left it open to be interpreted to mean there is no penalty for committing a sin if the individual in fact believes the action is justified and not sinful.

We agree that if a person acts contrary to church doctrine, and it is the church that is wrong, there will be no penalty. What Thomas has not addressed is the case where we act contrary to church doctrine and the church is not wrong whether we will be held accountable for that sin.

Ender
 
MODERATOR NOTICE

Please charitably discuss the issues, not each other nor how each other post
 

I don’t disagree with what he said. I am asking for your understanding of what he didn’t say: if we sin by following a certain judgment of our conscience will we be held accountable?

Ender
That’s not really the pressing question, although it’s an important related one. You are asking about culpability. A faulty conscience implies ignorance of the truth, which might mitigate culpability. So, we can let God be the judge of all that.

The question at hand is, how will the Church proclaim and practice the faith, and how does a person’s conscience integrate the truths of faith? Benedict speaks a lot about subjectivism. Should the Church conform it’s practice and proclamation of truth to the mis-formed conscience?

Subjectivism in this case is the inappropriate exaltation of conscience over objective truth.
“The Church’s proclamation and practice of the faith are subject to my conscience.”

If nothing else can be said about Benedict’s comments, he certainly and plainly slam dunks this notion of subjectivity into the trash-can of error.
 
Good, this is half the answer I am looking for (it is also what I stated above). Now how about commenting on the other half: will we be held accountable if the teaching is not wrong? Let me also point out what you “believe Cardinal Ratzinger is saying” is an admission that his comment does indeed need interpretation.
I don’t disagree with what he said. I am asking for your understanding of what he didn’t say: if we sin by following a certain judgment of our conscience will we be held accountable?

Ender
Yes, we will. It would be sinful. I really thought this was made clear numerous times. It is found at the conclusion of the main text of Cardinal Ratzinger’s letter:

“But it can be very wrong to have come to such askew convictions in the first place, by having stiffled the protest of the anemnesis of being. The guilt then lies in a different place, much deeper–not in the present act, not in the present judgment of conscience but in the neglect of my being which made me deaf to the internal promptings of truth.”

That Cardinal Ratzinger says it is “very wrong” and that the “guilt then lies in a different place, much deeper” means it is an even worse sin.

Simply stated, God’s law inscribed on the conscience is the Objective Truth. As such, it cannot be wrong. I think this is likely what has not been understood. It is when the anemnesis of being (the voice of conscience) is “stiffled” that the certain judgment of conscience errs.
 
Yes, we will. It would be sinful. I really thought this was made clear numerous times. It is found at the conclusion of the main text of Cardinal Ratzinger’s letter:

“But it can be very wrong to have come to such askew convictions in the first place, by having stiffled the protest of the anemnesis of being. The guilt then lies in a different place, much deeper–not in the present act, not in the present judgment of conscience but in the neglect of my being which made me deaf to the internal promptings of truth.”

That Cardinal Ratzinger says it is “very wrong” and that the “guilt then lies in a different place, much deeper” means it is an even worse sin.

Simply stated, God’s law inscribed on the conscience is the Objective Truth. As such, it cannot be wrong. I think this is likely what has not been understood. It is when the anemnesis of being (the voice of conscience) is “stiffled” that the certain judgment of conscience errs.
Wow.
Heyo
👍

(Assuming when you say “it cannot be wrong”, you mean God’s law, and not the individual conscience)

I think we agree somehow.
 
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