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OneTrueCathApos
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Newbie2;5732477:
What bible do you read from? This is crazy!!
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Newbie2
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Newbie2;5732477:
Wow. Your explanations are way more bizarre that I expected. For someone who doesn’t believe in the NT, you are using it an awful lot to back up your ridiculous assertions.
This thread has been an interesting look at Ben’s rejection of reality and substitution of his own.
But don’t let me dissuade you, Ben. The more stuff you come up with, the more we can get a look at how confused some folks can be regarding the NT and Christianity.
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Ben_Masada
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Ben Masada;5736082:
The Catholic NAB version of Saint Joseph’s Edition. That’s the version I use to give replies in this Forum. So, as a Catholic, you have no reason to say that I am using a spurious version of the Bible. And my Bible bring the imprimatum of the Pope.What bible do you read from? This is crazy!!
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OneTrueCathApos
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OneTrueCathApos
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Do you not see the words of St. Paul claiming that he did in fact persecute Christians? His words are so plainly there in the NT as saying this. Do you just graze over that part?
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OneTrueCathApos
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Ben_Masada
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**Quote it, would you? Something important like this, you cannot expect me to give you a reply without quoting. **
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humble_maid
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Dear Brothers in Christ of the true God,
I strongly suspect that Ben’s mission here is to cause strife among us. I am glad that you all do not take heed to his lies. Though I believe we entertain him and amuse him by trying to defend our faith.
You must know by now that he has no intention to speak truth or deliberate on it. He knows our scriptures but infects them with his illogical reasons. Futhermore, I do not believe he is genuine in that he wants to discuss matters so as to gain further insight to the faith of christianity and more specifically that of catholism. If anything he has much disdain for us.
I say these things so that you need not continue feeding into his thwarted discussions. Let him be, but remember that we are the body of Christ and must stay together for peace and truth. Pray for him and all non-believers. I have no ill will against him but I do not trust someone who has every information at his disposable that defends what we believe yet he denies The Christ Jesus who died for all of us including him.
God Bless
I strongly suspect that Ben’s mission here is to cause strife among us. I am glad that you all do not take heed to his lies. Though I believe we entertain him and amuse him by trying to defend our faith.
You must know by now that he has no intention to speak truth or deliberate on it. He knows our scriptures but infects them with his illogical reasons. Futhermore, I do not believe he is genuine in that he wants to discuss matters so as to gain further insight to the faith of christianity and more specifically that of catholism. If anything he has much disdain for us.
I say these things so that you need not continue feeding into his thwarted discussions. Let him be, but remember that we are the body of Christ and must stay together for peace and truth. Pray for him and all non-believers. I have no ill will against him but I do not trust someone who has every information at his disposable that defends what we believe yet he denies The Christ Jesus who died for all of us including him.
God Bless
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Newbie2
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In other words, “Don’t feed the Troll”?Dear Brothers in Christ of the true God,
I strongly suspect that Ben’s mission here is to cause strife among us. I am glad that you all do not take heed to his lies. Though I believe we entertain him and amuse him by trying to defend our faith.
You must know by now that he has no intention to speak truth or deliberate on it. He knows our scriptures but infects them with his illogical reasons. Futhermore, I do not believe he is genuine in that he wants to discuss matters so as to gain further insight to the faith of christianity and more specifically that of catholism. If anything he has much disdain for us.
I say these things so that you need not continue feeding into his thwarted discussions. Let him be, but remember that we are the body of Christ and must stay together for peace and truth. Pray for him and all non-believers. I have no ill will against him but I do not trust someone who has every information at his disposable that defends what we believe yet he denies The Christ Jesus who died for all of us including him.
God Bless
I don’t know…the more he writes, the more he demonstrates the Truth of the Christian/Catholic faith.
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humble_maid
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Are you not catholic or even christian for that matter? If you doubt the religion or faith altogether, then please give me reason(s) as to ‘why’ if you will. Do you believe all his conspiracy theories? Have you read his counter arguments? They are more likely his fabrications than sound theory or fact.In other words, “Don’t feed the Troll”?
I don’t know…the more he writes, the more he demonstrates the Truth of the Christian/Catholic faith.
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Newbie2
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Are you not catholic or even christian for that matter? If you doubt the religion or faith altogether, then please give me reason(s) as to ‘why’ if you will. Do you believe all his conspiracy theories? Have you read his counter arguments? ***They are more likely his fabrications than sound theory or fact./***QUOTE]
That’s exactly what I’m saying.
When someone is saying things that are truly bizarre, contrary to fact and beyond rational thought, sometimes it’s best to let them dig their hole even deeper…and in this case, methinks Ben is demonstrating with each and every post that his reality does not come close to objective reality.
I didn’t mean that he was correct, quite to the contrary, sorry you misunderstood.
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KindredSoul
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You’re really not above false and empty accusations, are you? Nor are you above ad hominem, even though you get quite offended whenever someone attacks you with one. I haven’t “answered” your question because the answer to your question is obvious: The NT speaks of Christians, people who believed that Jesus rose from the dead, existing from the very first day that Jesus resurrected. But until you realize there is a difference between a name and a religion, you will not accept the true answer even though it’s right there in the last chapters of the Gospels and the early chapters of Acts. That’s why I tried to settle that with you first. There’s someone in this discussion who has too much pride to admit failure, but it isn’t me.
Oh yes…Cherubim, Seraphim, God, prophecies that come true, the promise of a distant Resurrection (Or do Jews no longer believe in Daniel?) and all those such things are “of this world” and this life, and are not at all supernatural or mystical. Please do not insult your fellow people by suggesting that none of them interpret these things literally; Orthodox Jews and the like very much do, and await a Messiah in the form of a literal person, proof that you and your “this worldly” version of Judaism by no means defines what Judaism truly and undeniably is according to your very own brethren. Plus even you admit the existence of God, Himself miraculous, transcendent and otherworldly… So do not try to pretend your Faith is totally of this world. And your faith is not proven, or else everyone would agree with you; not only Christians but everyone in the world would be clamoring for the rebuilding of the Temple so that we could all serve God according to the Old Testament measures.
I believe there is room for Truth in Judaism. If, in your opinion, that Truth equals Greek Mythology, I cannot help you. Zeus and the Greek gods are not real, and they certainly could not, therefore, have put some sort of divine copyright on the concept of “God Incarnate” when the Greek gods, being fictional, could not even make or become incarnate gods in the first place outside of made-up stories, for they themselves are made-up. Since God is real, He is not limited in that same way, and could indeed become Incarnate and be born in a human body if He very well pleased…He’s omnipotent, you know. :yup:
No, what is written is only proof if no one could have interpreted it differently than what you think it means. You are, it seems, deliberately thinking too narrowly to admit that this is possible. Or maybe you’re just displaying that pride that you accused me of having. In any event, what is written is capable of being merely evidence rather than proof, and you have certainly not shown anything more than that, if you have even shown that.
“God has not done this for other nations.” The Psalms were written before Christ’s coming. At that time, God hadn’t done that for other nations. By the way, it was you, not me, who suggested that people simply following their religion (Christians) was anti-semitic just because we dare to believe that God gave His word to everyone, meaning the Jews are no longer His sole people. I simply pointed out that if we are guilty of racism just because of our beliefs (we’re obviously not) then Jews would be equally guilty of racism because of theirs…even if the Old Testament supported this “racism,” by your logic it would simply mean the Old Testament itself was as Racist a source of Faith as you would say the New Testament or Christianity itself is.
See what was written before the previous paragraph: What is written is not necessarily proof, so long as it is open for other interpretations. You may say “But it’s not open,” but we all see it differently. You may shake your fists and cry “stubborn” “irrational” and “pride” all you want, it won’t change the fact that there are other ways of interpreting your “evidence” than you know, or perhaps simply than you are willing to admit. Ironic: You imply that the way you interpret the scriptures is not only the only “right” way (we often also claim that for ourselves as a matter of faith and evidential persuasion) but the only intelligently possible way! And yet you accuse us of pride!
I will only respond to your future posts that do not twist or ignore what I have said before which should have already answered you. In fact, I will only deal with your posts at all if you show signs of truly having considered all I have said instead of just hand waving it away. Otherwise, I will simply tell you to go back and read what I’ve already written until you get the full argument right, or else I shall have to be even more suspicious of the honesty behind your motives (I already am only remaining by giving you the barest benefit of the doubt). I don’t have all the time in the world to repeat myself or correct your deliberate twisting of my words. I only have time to discuss with people who at least might be genuinely interested in truly knowing more and understanding why we believe what we believe, not people interested in accusing me of pride or ignorance at every turn, without realizing the irony of making those accusations.
Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
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cthulhubryan
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Ben, I will no longer call you a Jew. I will call you a Bennite. Everyone, Ben is a Bennite. See, I just invented your religion! Wow, that was easy! What others call you is not the definition of your religion.
Faith is what one needs to be obedient to God. I suppose research might include building a golden calf?
Commonsense is equally amazed at you. Of course Christianity is not Judaism (or Benism for you) it is the fulfillment of it and the continuation of God’s covenant with his people. I can scarcely imagine the gall of someone saying that God loves only this few people and will not let the others come to the party. Perhaps I should list Benism with the equal rights counsel as a engine of discrimination!
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Newbie2
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Or is it Bennonite? LOLBen, I will no longer call you a Jew. I will call you a Bennite. Everyone, Ben is a Bennite. See, I just invented your religion! Wow, that was easy! What others call you is not the definition of your religion.
Faith is what one needs to be obedient to God. I suppose research might include building a golden calf?
Commonsense is equally amazed at you. Of course Christianity is not Judaism (or Benism for you) it is the fulfillment of it and the continuation of God’s covenant with his people. I can scarcely imagine the gall of someone saying that God loves only this few people and will not let the others come to the party. Perhaps I should list Benism with the equal rights counsel as a engine of discrimination!
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KindredSoul
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I agree with both of you. I gave up long ago on convincing Ben, but I do hate to think that some poorly catechized person might see his posts and be confused by them. I highly doubt that anyone is that poorly catechized, so perhaps it is nearly time to bow out of the discussion. As I told him in the last paragraph of my last post before this one, I’m planning to not respond to even one point he makes from now on if he, in his response overall, twists or blatantly (in a demanding way) ignores something that has already been said before by our side of the argument. His twisting of our arguments and ignoring others (while making an argument that has already been answered) betrays the lack of good intentions, just as both of you suggest, so if it continues, I agree that it is best to have nothing to do with him; by this point, anyone reading the thread can see his tactics for what they are, and I cannot imagine that anyone would be convinced by them other than someone who really already wanted to be convinced. Ben himself seems to possibly be one of those people.
As for Ben’s ultimate motives, I actually think that Ben himself, like countless others who behave similarly in these forums and elsewhere, is less than secure in what he believes in, perhaps subconsciously, so that he doesn’t realize it. All this talk that his own beliefs are absolutely proven beyond the shadow of a doubt (when, as I have argued and demonstrated, no one, including Atheists and even Agnostics, can hold their stance without having some degree of faith) suggests that he needs to believe this in order to have some sense of emotional or intellectual security. If he admits so much as the fact that Christianity is intellectually feasible (which no unbiased person would deny is at least conceivably true), it will be too big a blow to his own beliefs due to his insecurity; since Christianity contradicts his view of Judaism, and he seems deeply insecure, he therefore cannot accept it even as an intellectual possibility, nor can he simply buffer his own beliefs with faith in light of that possibility–as he has admitted he cannot–and so feels the need to endeavor on the hopeless quest of totally “disproving” Christianity, something in which no one can succeed but in which Ben, similarly to Atheists and Agnostics who also deny the place of faith much to their own peril, must falsely convince himself that he has already succeeded. He is fighting for his own mental certainty, for his very confidence in his beliefs, and so he will likely never yield to the fact that his “proofs” are really nothing more than (in his case highly subjective) evidences, if even that. This is what happens when anyone, religious or atheist/agnostic alike, forgets that having faith is not a weakness, but is rather a human necessity.
We should pray for Ben, and for all others who make a similar error.
Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
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Angelo_Michael
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Well, I think it is obvious that your interpretation is different than the original Scripture and that your views don’t necessarily represent [all forms of] Judaism. Moreover, In the same way that you state that one errs for being too literal in the Scriptures, I would argue that one [also] errs by inferring too much or drifting too far from the original content without sufficient grounds. And, in regards to interpreting Scripture, I think/believe that the notion of God desiring mercy rather than sacrifice is implied upon the act. That is a main concern I have for your your assertions: it as though you have made Abraham into a dreamer instead of a prophet; and God basically seems non-existent, or as not existing as an entity that can speak clearly to another. From experience I can tell you that modern revelation is performed like unto the explanation therefor of Moses. Yet, also sometimes I have found myself miming certain prophecies, and/or with my voice speaking/declaring the future/prophecy without any [initially discernible] introduction. But, both of these events occurred after the initial “formalities” [of my ordination]; and I may be a separate case as well (i.e. my experience may be different or unique).
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Angelo_Michael
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I have speculated on the possibility that some people may have an aversion to Christ because of the [potentially overriding] presence of love and that that love may be viewed as originating from a male figure. Homophobia/heterophobia could be involved as well as any abuse by, or preconceptions of, people and/or God. Furthermore, the differing forms of Christianity might be pulling a potential convert in too many directions at once and their reasoning behind their [superficial] rejection of Christ is that there is no consensus on what He intends for Christians to do and/or how one should worship [Him and/or God]. In essence, converting to Christianity may seem to some to be like the opening of a [new] “can of worms”; rather than the answer to their spiritual inquest or the summation of their beliefs and/or faith.
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Ben_Masada
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Ben_Masada
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**Thank you Humble Made, I love you too, although of humble, you have only the name. I could happily welcome you, but instead of knocking at the door, you broke it down. Of all your post above, I would like to tell you something about your last sentence. The one you state that Jesus died for all of us including myself. Since you claim that everything I say are fabrications and not sound theories, I would like to give you some scriptures, so that you should entrust them to your memory. They all say the same thing. They are: Deuteronomy 24:16; II Kings 14:6; Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekiel 18:4. They all say that,
“Only for his own guilt shall a man be put to death.” **
Humble Made, I did not write those texts. Therefore, they are not my fabrications. They are Scriptures. The only Scriptures that Jesus used to handle. The only Scriptures that Jesus used to call them Word of God. They say that Jesus was not put to death for our sins. They say that only for his own guilt shall a man be put to death. So, please, don’t get so mad at me. At least, tell me that what you don’t want is that those pages be open and those quotations be heard. Okay, I’ll do that, but don’t say they are my fabrications. They are the Word of God.
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OneTrueCathApos
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The Scripture is as follows:
**Acts 26:9
“For my part, I once thought it my duty to oppose the name of Jesus the Nazorean in every way possible. that is just what I did in Jerusalem. With the authority I received from the chief Priests, I sent many of God’s Holy people to prison. when they were to be put to death I cast my vote against them. Many a time in Synagogue, I compelled them by force to blaspheme. Indeed, so wild was my fury against them that I pursued them even to foreign cities.”
Acts 26:12
"On one such occasion I was traveling toward Damascus armed with the authority and commission of the chief priests. On this journey, your Majesty (Paul is talking to King Agrippa), I saw a light more brilliant than the sun shining in the sky at midday. It surrounded me and all who were with me. All fell to the ground and I heard a voice saying to me in Hebrew “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goad” I said, Who are you sir? And the Lord answered “I am that Jesus, whom you are persecuting, get up. I have delivered you from this people and from the Nations.”
Acts 27:28
Reaction from King Agrippa:
“Do you believe the prophets King Agrippa? I am sure you do.” and the King replied “A little more Paul, and you will make me a Christian.”
Romans 4:24
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For our faith will be credited to us also if we believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, the Jesus who was handed over to death for our sins and raised up for our justification."
Paul goes on to say how he preaches Christ crucified—a stumbling block to Jews.
But mostly, this says it all:
1 Cor 15:8
"But last of all, He was seen by me, one born out of normal course. I am the least of the Apostles; in fact because I persecuted the church of God, I do not deserve the name. But by God’s favor, I am what I am.**
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