A Challenging Article on Catholic Moral Theology

[4elise]

Yes, it is quite challenging. I found this video that shows the cruelties. It’s pretty bloody…

earthlings.com/

i think it would be wonderful if Catholic would lead the discussions on this issue to help bring about changes - as individuals one simple choice is not to take part in this - it isn’t as hard as it may seem. I made this move to a plant based diet past 50!

 

[4elise]

Actually, I don’t think it is really thread drift. I think that the lack of human scale operations which is a real blow to us economically is also why there are serious problems with morality in the way farms treat animals.

Distribustism is about having a kind of economy that recognizes human nature and an authentic human society. What we have now doesn’t do those things. It also doesn’t recognize the real needs of animals. Both humans and animals become only economic units, and the size and scale make it hard for people to think about it in a clear way.

Well said.

 

[4elise]

Hence the ecolie outbreaks which have become so common place in meat market and produce.

Exactly right.

 

[4elise]

So what are the alternatives to factory food production?

Trying to feed 3 people for a lifetime is one thing. Trying to feed 300 million for a lifetime is quite another thing. Not to mention the food we export to those who need it.

Whatever the alternatives, our food will cost more. Which does not help the poor at all.

GOOD STEWARDSHIP of our natural resources is a moral imperative in my view. But 300 plus million people need to be fed every day at a price they can afford.

A plant based diet goes further, is less expensive, and we led a movement toward this based on our beliefs we could make a tremendous difference for those living today and for future generations.

 

[4elise]

The things that I’ve seen in chicken farms that bother me.

you have to raise the level of the water and feed lines as the chicks grow to weed out any stragglers. The ones that don’t grow fast enough die of dehydration.

daily culls of sick or weakly chickens. usually I’ve seen them either bashed in the head or choked. A lot of times one try will not kill them and they will then die over course of several hours while they are in compost piles.

For transportation to the processing plant they are gathered about a dozen at a time and hurled into cages in the back of a truck. The process will injure or kill some of the chickens and others will be suffocated or crushed in the back of the truck on the way to the plant.

I am not really sure if any of the suffering that the animals go through would be classified as unnecessary according to Catholic teaching.

Since we do not ‘need’ chickens or dairy in our diet - their suffering is unnecessary - and that is consistent with Catholic teaching.

 

[4elise]

it is if you are poor.

A plant based diet is actually cheaper than cheap meat - if you are talking about preparing food at home - it takes a shift, but it certainly can be done.

 

[4elise]

People can cut back. There is no need for the typical American diet of meat at every meal. We do need some meat for optimal health but we’ve gone a little overboard.

Cutting back is a great idea!

But we really do not ‘need’ meat for optimal health. Many people live well on plant based diets -

 

[severus68]

Since we do not ‘need’ chickens or dairy in our diet - their suffering is unnecessary - and that is consistent with Catholic teaching.

Agreed. When we become aware of the immense cruelty, how do we as ethical beings justify a meat based diet.

 

[Speedypizza]

I find it funny how 1 person makes 90% of the posts about this topic. The church is not against eating of meat, if you want me to stop, you are going to need to get the holy father to tell me that. As much as I learn from this forum, the real problem I see is over and over again, somebody with some off the wall idea tries to prove to the rest of us why we should join them in (not eating meat, not wearing shorter clothing when it is 100 degrees outside with 90% humidity, burn all Harry Potter books or not drink Pepsi.)

Once again, I stand on the church. If the church cares to say eating meat is wrong, I will stop. If the Holy Father says to burn Harry Potter, I will obey, and when the day comes that I am told drinking Pepsi is a mortal sin, I will never have it again. I put my trust is Jesus and the Church that he founded. He said that he will lead us to all truth, and I believe him. If you feel called to do any of these things, more power to you. If you want to change the church, why don’t you talk to your Bishop about them and not fight with us? Maybe because you know he will tell you that you are nuts and not listen?

Now if you all will excuse me, I need to put on a swimsuit, lay by the pool, reading Harry Potter while having a Pepsi and a bacon double cheeseburger.

 

[4elise]

I find it funny how 1 person makes 90% of the posts about this topic. The church is not against eating of meat, if you want me to stop, you are going to need to get the holy father to tell me that. As much as I learn from this forum, the real problem I see is over and over again, somebody with some off the wall idea tries to prove to the rest of us why we should join them in (not eating meat, not wearing shorter clothing when it is 100 degrees outside with 90% humidity, burn all Harry Potter books or not drink Pepsi.)

Once again, I stand on the church. If the church cares to say eating meat is wrong, I will stop. If the Holy Father says to burn Harry Potter, I will obey, and when the day comes that I am told drinking Pepsi is a mortal sin, I will never have it again. I put my trust is Jesus and the Church that he founded. He said that he will lead us to all truth, and I believe him. If you feel called to do any of these things, more power to you. If you want to change the church, why don’t you talk to your Bishop about them and not fight with us? Maybe because you know he will tell you that you are nuts and not listen?

Now if you all will excuse me, I need to put on a swimsuit, lay by the pool, reading Harry Potter while having a Pepsi and a bacon double cheeseburger.

Not sure if I’m the 1 person making 90% of the posts - but happy to respond

I responded and joined in commenting on this thread to the OP that I certainly didn’t post - and was about an article by a Catholic Theologian questioning the morality of factory farming.

So for me, I believe I need to put my faith into action by applying the Catholic Church’s teaching to my every day choices. (even if I am not getting specific direction related to specific choices) For me this means also trying to purchase fair trade coffee - may have to drink less because it cost a bit more, trying to purchase union made clothes, and yes - eating a vegan diet because of what is written in the Catholic Catechism.

You may chose a different way to live your faith. Enjoy the book, pepsi and burger!

 

[4elise]

I find it funny how 1 person makes 90% of the posts about this topic. The church is not against eating of meat, if you want me to stop, you are going to need to get the holy father to tell me that. As much as I learn from this forum, the real problem I see is over and over again, somebody with some off the wall idea tries to prove to the rest of us why we should join them in (not eating meat, not wearing shorter clothing when it is 100 degrees outside with 90% humidity, burn all Harry Potter books or not drink Pepsi.)

Once again, I stand on the church. If the church cares to say eating meat is wrong, I will stop. If the Holy Father says to burn Harry Potter, I will obey, and when the day comes that I am told drinking Pepsi is a mortal sin, I will never have it again. I put my trust is Jesus and the Church that he founded. He said that he will lead us to all truth, and I believe him. If you feel called to do any of these things, more power to you. If you want to change the church, why don’t you talk to your Bishop about them and not fight with us? Maybe because you know he will tell you that you are nuts and not listen?

Now if you all will excuse me, I need to put on a swimsuit, lay by the pool, reading Harry Potter while having a Pepsi and a bacon double cheeseburger.

OH - guess it wasn’t me this is my 19th post on this thread

 

[TimothyH]

A plant based diet goes further, is less expensive, and we led a movement toward this based on our beliefs we could make a tremendous difference for those living today and for future generations.

Yet you would be following, not leading.

Many monasitc communites have been eating that way for centuries for exactly the reasons you state. Granted, few are totally plant based, but many at a minimum, don’t eat meat.

I spent a weekend with Cistercian (Trappist) monks and they had meat, but only those who were on an infirm diet and needed extra protien were allowed to eat it. I say “Allowed to eat it” but the brother I met who had open heart surgery told me he only did so because he was under medical orders.

-Tim-

 

[4elise]

Yet you would be following, not leading.

Many monasitc communites have been eating that way for centuries for exactly the reasons you state. Granted, few are totally plant based, but many at a minimum, don’t eat meat.

I spent a weekend with Cistercian (Trappist) monks and they had meat, but only those who were on an infirm diet and needed extra protien were allowed to eat it. I say “Allowed to eat it” but the brother I met who had open heart surgery told me he only did so because he was under medical orders.

-Tim-

True Tim - thanks for making that connection -

my reference to leading was in response to the post from: GratefulFred who had asked

So what are the alternatives to factory food production?

Trying to feed 3 people for a lifetime is one thing. Trying to feed 300 million for a lifetime is quite another thing. Not to mention the food we export to those who need it.

Whatever the alternatives, our food will cost more. Which does not help the poor at all.

GOOD STEWARDSHIP of our natural resources is a moral imperative in my view. But 300 plus million people need to be fed every day at a price they can afford.

So I was saying that TODAY those called by faith to make a change to a plant based diet can lead others to do likewise

 

[severus68]

I find it funny how 1 person makes 90% of the posts about this topic. The church is not against eating of meat, if you want me to stop, you are going to need to get the holy father to tell me that. As much as I learn from this forum, the real problem I see is over and over again, somebody with some off the wall idea tries to prove to the rest of us why we should join them in (not eating meat, not wearing shorter clothing when it is 100 degrees outside with 90% humidity, burn all Harry Potter books or not drink Pepsi.)

Once again, I stand on the church. If the church cares to say eating meat is wrong, I will stop. If the Holy Father says to burn Harry Potter, I will obey, and when the day comes that I am told drinking Pepsi is a mortal sin, I will never have it again. I put my trust is Jesus and the Church that he founded. He said that he will lead us to all truth, and I believe him. If you feel called to do any of these things, more power to you. If you want to change the church, why don’t you talk to your Bishop about them and not fight with us? Maybe because you know he will tell you that you are nuts and not listen?

Now if you all will excuse me, I need to put on a swimsuit, lay by the pool, reading Harry Potter while having a Pepsi and a bacon double cheeseburger.

No one is telling you what to do so why so defensive. BTW, I think the Harry Porter books are great.

 

[John21652]

Not sure if I’m the 1 person making 90% of the posts - but happy to respond

You made 17 posts in a row. That is flooding a thread and is ill mannered and rude.

I responded and joined in commenting on this thread to the OP that I certainly didn’t post - and was about an article by a Catholic Theologian questioning the morality of factory farming.

Making 17 posts in a row is not simply “responding”, as you term it. You are attempting to ram down the throats of others your own world view, which is against all animal farming. Even the article to which you say you are responding points out the author is not against meat eating. You, however, see it as one more opportunity to push your ideology. An ideology, by the way, which is closely aligned to activist groups like PETA, which, as we have already sen, is bereft of morality.

So for me, I believe I need to put my faith into action by applying the Catholic Church’s teaching to my every day choices. (even if I am not getting specific direction related to specific choices) For me this means also trying to purchase fair trade coffee - may have to drink less because it cost a bit more, trying to purchase union made clothes, and yes - eating a vegan diet because of what is written in the Catholic Catechism.

Equating the Catechism with veganism is to mislead others. The Catechism does not in any way, shape or form encourage veganism and the anti-meat mind set you have.

You may chose a different way to live your faith. Enjoy the book, pepsi and burger!

Your “beef” (no pun intended), is with so called factory farming. Your solution is to make a stand against the farming of animals for meat and other products. In another thread we had a very lengthy and often heated discussion on this very subject, did we not? It was pointed out to you that the American Farm Bill goes a long way towards fostering and supporting the so called factory farm system and often at the expense of the traditional family farm. So why is it, if you are so concerned about the welfare of animals, that you are not conducting a raging war against the spending of billions of taxpayer dollars to support this style of farming? Why is it you don’t start threads here on CAF which draw attention to how United States law makers regularly direct billions of dollars into a system of farming which you are always willing to point out as being cruel? Where is your rage at such a misdirection of taxpayers money?

 

[severus68]

You made 17 posts in a row. That is flooding a thread and is ill mannered and rude.

Making 17 posts in a row is not simply “responding”, as you term it. You are attempting to ram down the throats of others your own world view, which is against all animal farming. Even the article to which you say you are responding points out the author is not against meat eating. You, however, see it as one more opportunity to push your ideology. An ideology, by the way, which is closely aligned to activist groups like PETA, which, as we have already sen, is bereft of morality.

Equating the Catechism with veganism is to mislead others. The Catechism does not in any way, shape or form encourage veganism and the anti-meat mind set you have.

Your “beef” (no pun intended), is with so called factory farming. Your solution is to make a stand against the farming of animals for meat and other products. In another thread we had a very lengthy and often heated discussion on this very subject, did we not? It was pointed out to you that the American Farm Bill goes a long way towards fostering and supporting the so called factory farm system and often at the expense of the traditional family farm. So why is it, if you are so concerned about the welfare of animals, that you are not conducting a raging war against the spending of billions of taxpayer dollars to support this style of farming? Why is it you don’t start threads here on CAF which draw attention to how United States law makers regularly direct billions of dollars into a system of farming which you are always willing to point out as being cruel? Where is your rage at such a misdirection of taxpayers money?

Everyone pushes their own views, you included. Is there a restriction on the number of posts, consecutive or otherwise? No, so you are wrong in saying someone is being illl mannered and rude. No one is stopping you from posting.

I do not have to defend 4elise but I know what she has done and does for animals and her beliefs.

 

[4elise]

You made 17 posts in a row. That is flooding a thread and is ill mannered and rude.

Making 17 posts in a row is not simply “responding”, as you term it. You are attempting to ram down the throats of others your own world view, which is against all animal farming. Even the article to which you say you are responding points out the author is not against meat eating. You, however, see it as one more opportunity to push your ideology. An ideology, by the way, which is closely aligned to activist groups like PETA, which, as we have already sen, is bereft of morality.

Equating the Catechism with veganism is to mislead others. The Catechism does not in any way, shape or form encourage veganism and the anti-meat mind set you have.

Your “beef” (no pun intended), is with so called factory farming. Your solution is to make a stand against the farming of animals for meat and other products. In another thread we had a very lengthy and often heated discussion on this very subject, did we not? It was pointed out to you that the American Farm Bill goes a long way towards fostering and supporting the so called factory farm system and often at the expense of the traditional family farm. So why is it, if you are so concerned about the welfare of animals, that you are not conducting a raging war against the spending of billions of taxpayer dollars to support this style of farming? Why is it you don’t start threads here on CAF which draw attention to how United States law makers regularly direct billions of dollars into a system of farming which you are always willing to point out as being cruel? Where is your rage at such a misdirection of taxpayers money?

Wow John - sorry you have taken such offense. I came upon this thread some time after it had begun, so if you would look, you would see I had just gone from the beginning and responded to the many posts that had been there before I began. All 17 were responses.

My ‘stand’ was the topic of the OP - to question the morality of factory farming.

***You start a thread about the US taxpayer dollars supporting this form of ‘farming’ and I’ll be right there with you!! *** If I miss it - let me know!! I couldn’t agree more that greed drives this - and believe (as you may remember from our previous encounters on threads) that there are ways that this can be done by family farms that is sustainable - I think someone had pointed out that the typical American diet of meat at every meal / fast food restaurants / also contribute so there is culpability a plenty - and also as I have said MANY times I .only came to this about 6 years ago - because of another point in the article - I just didn’t know. When I learned I chose to change.

My understanding of the Catechism is to take the words
2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly.

I do not NEED animals or their products (milk, eggs, leather) to live.
Therefore for ME to use them is contrary to my human dignity, in keeping with the teaching of the Catholic Church.

I further believe based upon this:

2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure.

that there are places in the world who still NEED to rely on animals for protein.
I however in the United States do not NEED them - therefore for ME to cause them to suffer OR die is NEEDLESS.

I am not personally attacking you or what you do for your living - nor anyone else. I question the morality of factory farming as did the article in the OP. Simply that.
Blessings to you John.

 

[John21652]

Everyone pushes their own views, you included.

Most people come here to discuss issues, not to ram an agenda down the throats of others.

Is there a restriction on the number of posts, consecutive or otherwise? No, so you are wrong in saying someone is being illl mannered and rude.

perhaps you should go and look at the Forum Rules, which specifically state “Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda”. Then swing across to the Forum Etiquette thread, where, on about page four, it mentions consecutive postings as poor etiquette. 17 posts in a row is flooding a thread and poor manners. 4Elise could have made her point in a single post. Last I looked, poor etiquette equalled poor manners.

No one is stopping you from posting.

I don’t have any recollection of ever complaining that anyone was stopping me from posting. If you can point out where I did this, I’d be most appreciative.

I do not have to defend 4elise but I know what she has done and does for animals and her beliefs.

Then why the attempt?

 

[razredge]

I think it’s rather silly to claim that God wants us to be vegetarians.

If he did, he’d have evolved us to be herbivores rather than omnivores

 

[severus68]

I think it’s rather silly to claim that God wants us to be vegetarians.

If he did, he’d have evolved us to be herbivores rather than omnivores

Tell me, can you kill an animal with your nails and your canine teeth? Read Genesis 1 and the world God created and wanted.