A "Charismaric Mass" on EWTN?

[BSHoop96]

From the GIRM

The options are the same for the offertory, and the Communion chant.
Right or wrong this leaves the music wide open. If someone thinks there is an abuse, they should report it “in charity & truth”
Other options are testimonies of healing after the homily.

If you judge legitimate options as abuses, and say they are done because it makes someone “feel” good, this is very judgemental—there are no facts in your statement, only judgemental opinions.

Lux

Lux, I believe the poster was making a comment on charismatics that she (or he) worshipped with, that she had a prayer group with. Obviously she would know these individuals better than you. She made it quite clear that she wasn’t talking about the whole charismatic movement. I sense quite a bit of defensiveness on your part and suggest that you take note that most of us are having a problem with people that take a movement such as the charismatic movement and run with it in their own interpretations. One might almost say the same way that many things were done in “the spirit of Vatican II” that shouldn’t have, and which by the way, we seem to slowly be seeing a correction on.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

OK–my point is no one knows the mind of these worshippers.

To say they do something because it “feels good”, rather than because it is devotion is an opinion, and an unfair statement.

I am still waiting for clarification of

It is not the Mass if done in unintelligible tongues if that’s where you are going.

Have you ever been present for a Mass celebrated in this manner, and if so was it an authentic group?

This has gone way off topic anyway.

Lux

 

[benedictgal]

The music certainly has to reflect the standards and beliefs of the Church. One of the problems with the music that the Charismatic Movement uses, at least what the group does down here, is Tex-Mex conjunto style that certainly manages to detract from the sacred, the solemn, the majestic and the dignified character of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Even in a couple of “charismatic” parishes, the movement has seeped into all of the Masses making them more geared towards the movement than to the general needs of the public.

The Movement should conform itself to the Mass not the other way around.

Incidentally, as far as creativity and flexibility is concerned, perhaps this explanation from Francis Cardinal Arinze, the prefect emeritus for the Congregation for Divine Worship, might be of help:

Moreover, a priority at Mass and other liturgical acts is worship of God. The liturgy is not a field for self-expression, free creation and the demonstration of personal tastes. Idiosyncrasies tend to attract attention to the person rather than to the mysteries of Christ being celebrated. They can also upset, puzzle, annoy, mislead or confuse the congregation.

Nevertheless, it is also true that the liturgical norms do allow some flexibility. With reference to the central and most important liturgical action, the Mass, for example, we can speak of three levels of flexibility. First, there are in the Missal and the Lectionary some alternative texts, rites, chants, readings and blessings from which the priest celebrant can choose. (cf GIRM 24, RS 39) Then there are choices left at the competence of the diocesan bishop or the Conference of Bishops. Examples are regulation of concelebration, norms regarding the distribution of Communion under both kinds, the construction and ordering of churches, translations and some gestures. (cf SC 38, 40; GIRM 387, 390) Some such alternatives require recognitio from the Holy See. The most demanding level of variability concerns inculturation in the strictest sense. It involves action by the Conference of Bishops, after the conducting of deep interdisciplinary studies and recognitio from the Holy See.

Redemptionis Sacramentum is therefore able to say that “ample flexibility is given for appropriate creativity aimed at allowing each celebration to be adapted to the needs of the participants, to their comprehension, their interior preparation and their gifts, according to established liturgical norms”. (RS 39) The last phrase is important: “according to established liturgical norms”. The paragraph of Redemptionis Sacramentum concludes with a recall of the crucial observation that “it should be remembered that the power of the liturgical celebrations does not consist in frequently altering the rites, but in probing more deeply the word of God and the mystery being celebrated”. What the people are asking for every Sunday from their pastor is not a novelty but a celebration of the sacred mysteries that nourishes faith, manifests devotion, awakens piety, leads to prayer and incites to active charity in daily life.

What I highlighted in the exerpt are important details that should not be ignored. Creativity doesn’t involve doing whatever one wants because they are moved. It means using the legitimate means provided by the Church.

That is why I believe that EWTN exercises prudence in deciding what should and should not be covered.

 

[Walking_Home]

The music certainly has to reflect the standards and beliefs of the Church. One of the problems with the music that the Charismatic Movement uses, **at least what the group does down here, is Tex-Mex conjunto style **that certainly manages to detract from the sacred, the solemn, the majestic and the dignified character of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Even in a couple of “charismatic” parishes, the movement has seeped into all of the Masses making them more geared towards the movement than to the general needs of the public.

The Movement should conform itself to the Mass not the other way around.

Incidentally, as far as creativity and flexibility is concerned, perhaps this explanation from Francis Cardinal Arinze, the prefect emeritus for the Congregation for Divine Worship, might be of help:

What I highlighted in the exerpt are important details that should not be ignored. Creativity doesn’t involve doing whatever one wants because they are moved. It means using the legitimate means provided by the Church.

That is why I believe that EWTN exercises prudence in deciding what should and should not be covered.

---

Tex Mex conjunto style —that does not sound good at all. I would be out the door in a jiff.

 

[BSHoop96]

OK–my point is no one knows the mind of these worshippers.

To say they do something because it “feels good”, rather than because it is devotion is an opinion, and an unfair statement.

I am still waiting for clarification of

Have you ever been present for a Mass celebrated in this manner, and if so was it an authentic group?

This has gone way off topic anyway.

Lux

Good grief, Lux, lighten up…

Someone said this:
What constitutes a “Charismatic” Mass?
If they are done according to the book–say the black, do the red–in whatever language, it is the Mass.

I responded with: not if the Mass is done in unintelligible tongues.

Okay? Nobody said anything about seeing one, being at one, whatever.

 

[Manfred]

I like the current format they have although I would like some more Latin based masses though

Toby,

EWTN sent TWO of its priests to St John Cantius in Chicago to learn the TLM in all its forms, Low, High, Solemn High. Alleluia!!!

As for the innovations mentioned herein (charismatic movement Mass, LifeTeen Mass) on EWTN: may they never be!

 

[benedictgal]

Toby,

EWTN sent TWO of its priests to St John Cantius in Chicago to learn the TLM in all its forms, Low, High, Solemn High. Alleluia!!!

As for the innovations mentioned herein (charismatic movement Mass, LifeTeen Mass) on EWTN: may they never be!

In Raymond Arroyo’s firstbook, his biography on Mother Angelica, he related how upset Mother was with the organizers of the Denver WYD for having a woman portray Christ during the Via Crucis. If this incident greatly troubled Mother, I would imagine that she would certainly put her foot down regarding any abnormalities that folks would want to broadcast on EWTN. I woudl also wager that her subordinates would have the same opinoin.

With all due respect to the folks who support the movement, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not the venue for free-form expression. Yes, each movement has its own charisms, but, we check our particulars at the door when we go to Mass. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass does not belong to anyone, nor is it the personal property of any one movement. It is the Church’s greatest treasure and should be safeguarded.

I have been to a couple of these Masses, a couple of them in the neighborhood parish. These are my very last resort when I have missed the chance to go to daily Mass earlier in the day. Why the movements can’t just stick to the Roman Missal is beyond me. If one wants to have this kind of service, do it outside of the Mass. Let the Holy Sacrifice be the Holy Sacrifice.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Good grief, Lux, lighten up…

Someone said this:
What constitutes a “Charismatic” Mass?
If they are done according to the book–say the black, do the red–in whatever language, it is the Mass.

I responded with: not if the Mass is done in unintelligible tongues.

Okay? Nobody said anything about seeing one, being at one, whatever.

OK so why bring it up, if you’ve never even seen it, and it isn’t part of the movement? This is my point. People badmouth a legitimate Approved Catholic movement of the Church, when they have no experience or even real knowledge of it.

Lux

 

[BSHoop96]

OK so why bring it up, if you’ve never even seen it, and it isn’t part of the movement? This is my point. People badmouth a legitimate Approved Catholic movement of the Church, when they have no experience or even real knowledge of it.

Lux

sigh…you have me confused with another poster. I was not the one who brought it up. I merely responded.

 

[BSHoop96]

In Raymond Arroyo’s firstbook, his biography on Mother Angelica, he related how upset Mother was with the organizers of the Denver WYD for having a woman portray Christ during the Via Crucis. If this incident greatly troubled Mother, I would imagine that she would certainly put her foot down regarding any abnormalities that folks would want to broadcast on EWTN. I woudl also wager that her subordinates would have the same opinoin.

With all due respect to the folks who support the movement, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not the venue for free-form expression. Yes, each movement has its own charisms, but, we check our particulars at the door when we go to Mass. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass does not belong to anyone, nor is it the personal property of any one movement. It is the Church’s greatest treasure and should be safeguarded.

I have been to a couple of these Masses, a couple of them in the neighborhood parish. These are my very last resort when I have missed the chance to go to daily Mass earlier in the day. Why the movements can’t just stick to the Roman Missal is beyond me. If one wants to have this kind of service, do it outside of the Mass. Let the Holy Sacrifice be the Holy Sacrifice.

AMEN!

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

sigh…you have me confused with another poster. I was not the one who brought it up. I merely responded.

I don’t have you confused with anyone. You made the snide remark about unintelligible tongues. Why would you say this, if you never experienced it?

Lux

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

---

Tex Mex conjunto style —that does not sound good at all. I would be out the door in a jiff.

And this is certainly your choice. But since the Church does “tolerate” inculturation, and local custom, it is not your call, if it is allowed by the local Bishop.

If there is no other Mass available to you, you may make a complaint, but if the Bishop (or Vatican, if you take it that far) permit it (probably it would be the majority), there is not much you can do.

Lux

 

[BSHoop96]

I don’t have you confused with anyone. You made the snide remark about unintelligible tongues. Why would you say this, if you never experienced it?

Lux

Lux…since you are bound and determined to be insulted by this remark when it was not meant in this way I will try one more time to clarify it for you.

1 - We had been having a discussion on the charismatic mass which basically turned into a discussion on tongues…a lot of talk about tongues. The discussion covered the actual mass and/or just prayer meetings or things outside the mass.

2 - Someone entered the discussion and said as long as we do the black, say the red, it doesn’t matter what the language is.

3 - Now since the conversation had so heavily involved tongues, not the Swedish language, not the French language, not the Italian language…it was not out of the question for me to assume maybe the poster was referring to the language of the Mass being “tongues”! I replied *“it is not the mass if it’s done in unintelligible tongues if that’s where you’re going.” * Just in case I had misunderstood the poster (which is easily done online) I had included the words “if that’s where you’re going,” knowing the poster could come back and clarify if they wanted.

4 - Now if everyone cannot understand it, then it’s unintelligible. This is not a slam on the intelligence of the speaker. Why you would find that so insulting? Tongues are unintelligible to the listener unless there is someone there with the gift of prophesy. The ironic thing about this is I think you and I both agree there will be no Mass celebrated like this.

Now I have explained it as simply as I can. I even apologized earlier if I said something in a way that would offend you but obviously that didn’t placate you. If you will please try not to be so defensive I will try to be careful about the way in which I word things.

 

[BSHoop96]

The music certainly has to reflect the standards and beliefs of the Church. One of the problems with the music that the Charismatic Movement uses, at least what the group does down here, is Tex-Mex conjunto style that certainly manages to detract from the sacred, the solemn, the majestic and the dignified character of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Even in a couple of “charismatic” parishes, the movement has seeped into all of the Masses making them more geared towards the movement than to the general needs of the public.

The Movement should conform itself to the Mass not the other way around.

Incidentally, as far as creativity and flexibility is concerned, perhaps this explanation from Francis Cardinal Arinze, the prefect emeritus for the Congregation for Divine Worship, might be of help:

What I highlighted in the exerpt are important details that should not be ignored. Creativity doesn’t involve doing whatever one wants because they are moved. It means using the legitimate means provided by the Church.

That is why I believe that EWTN exercises prudence in deciding what should and should not be covered.

Bgal, I forgot to ask. What is Tex-Mex conjunto style?

 

[Lepanto]

Just a reminder that the topic, per the original post is “Charismatic Mass” on EWTN.

 

[Manfred]

In Raymond Arroyo’s firstbook, his biography on Mother Angelica, he related how upset Mother was with the organizers of the Denver WYD for having a woman portray Christ during the Via Crucis. If this incident greatly troubled Mother, I would imagine that she would certainly put her foot down regarding any abnormalities that folks would want to broadcast on EWTN. I would also wager that her subordinates would have the same opinion.

Mother got so incensed (pun intended) that she reverted to the traditional habit and veil for her and her nuns, Deo gratias.

With all due respect to the folks who support the movement, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not the venue for free-form expression. Yes, each movement has its own charisms, but, we check our particulars at the door when we go to Mass. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass does not belong to anyone, nor is it the personal property of any one movement. It is the Church’s greatest treasure and should be safeguarded.

b’gal, your quote in another post from Cardinal Arinze says it all. Those who regard the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as the Church’s greatest treasure will abide by his directive. And, of course, those who regard the Mass as their vehicle for “creative” self-expression will ignore it completely, even after it has been brought to their attention.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Those who regard the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as the Church’s greatest treasure will abide by his directive. And, of course, those who regard the Mass as their vehicle for “creative” self-expression will ignore it completely, even after it has been brought to their attention.

And who is to determine which options are allowed? If the Bishop allows this music, should a layperson badmouth him and this Mass?

RS tells us how to procede with perceived abuse.

1. Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

Lux

 

[benedictgal]

Bgal, I forgot to ask. What is Tex-Mex conjunto style?

Being that you are in Oklahoma, you might be able to pick up a Spanish language Tejano station. Tex-Mex conjunto is music that one would hear at a bar or at a dancehall. It is primarily played with guitars that sound like this: unta, unta, untatata, unta, unta, unta, unta, untata. It does feature some elements of German polka, like accordians, but, that is about it. It is not a genre that is at all suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. In fact, were you to hear it, even though you may not understand Spanish, your toe might tap, but, that’s not advisable for Mass.

The musical style alone would disqualify it from being part of any EWTN broadcast, let alone a Charismatic Mass telecast. And, no, it does not qualify as inculturation since this is barroom music, not something that the Aztecs would have played some 500 years ago.

I hope this helps.

 

[BSHoop96]

Being that you are in Oklahoma, you might be able to pick up a Spanish language Tejano station. Tex-Mex conjunto is music that one would hear at a bar or at a dancehall. It is primarily played with guitars that sound like this: unta, unta, untatata, unta, unta, unta, unta, untata. It does feature some elements of German polka, like accordians, but, that is about it. It is not a genre that is at all suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. In fact, were you to hear it, even though you may not understand Spanish, your toe might tap, but, that’s not advisable for Mass.

The musical style alone would disqualify it from being part of any EWTN broadcast, let alone a Charismatic Mass telecast. And, no, it does not qualify as inculturation since this is barroom music, not something that the Aztecs would have played some 500 years ago.

I hope this helps.

Yes, thank you. It does seem like the “inculturation” excuse/reason is thrown out there alot.

 

[Manfred]

If the Bishop allows this music, should a layperson badmouth him and this Mass?

RS tells us how to procede with perceived abuse.

Lux

Hmmm, but the bishop shouldn’t be allowing this music (that which smacks of creative self-expression) now, should he?

I’d like to know how effective it is to report a real or perceived liturgical abuse AND get the situation rectified. Call me cynical, but I’m betting it’s pretty damned difficult.