K
KarenNC
Guest
What would constitute reliable information, in your view?
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
V
Valke2
Guest
Rabbi David Aaron, “The Secret Life of God”, p. 35.
Some of these religions, it is claimed in the Bible, had a set of practices which were prohibited under Jewish law, such as sex rites, cultic male and female prostitution, passing a child through a fire to Molech, and child sacrifice.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry
The most famous of the ancient rituals is the Hieros Gamos, or Sacred marriage ritual. Records of this ceremony have been dated as far back as early Sumerian, about 5500 years ago. In this ritual the high priestess acting as avatar of The Goddess had sex with the ruler of the country to show the Goddess’s acceptance him as ruler and caretaker of her people.
This bed was set up in front of the entire congregation. The people watched the entire ritual including the sexual part.
the climax of the ceremony (fifty times, wow!) the populous would cheer and shout their approval and appreciation. This ritual brought prosperity to the people and to the land, so they were very happy to witness its successful completion.
…
Anciently men’s transvestism had its roots in the desire to attain female magic and powers and was common among the Pagan priests up to the time of St. Augustine who denounced the custom, saying that men who wore women’s garments could never attain salvation, even if they were otherwise good Christians. So the good Catholics simply made the women’s gowns into Priests robes. They looked the same, had the same function, but a “robe by any other name, does not a transvestite make.”
… The festivals of Lupricalia were noted for their wild, sensual dances in which sausages played a very important part. So important in fact that both dancing and sausages were outlawed by the Christian Emperors of the 4th and 5th century.
…All of these ancient rituals, these orgia, involved group sex and nudity.
goddess.org/religious_sex.html
Some of these religions, it is claimed in the Bible, had a set of practices which were prohibited under Jewish law, such as sex rites, cultic male and female prostitution, passing a child through a fire to Molech, and child sacrifice.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry
The most famous of the ancient rituals is the Hieros Gamos, or Sacred marriage ritual. Records of this ceremony have been dated as far back as early Sumerian, about 5500 years ago. In this ritual the high priestess acting as avatar of The Goddess had sex with the ruler of the country to show the Goddess’s acceptance him as ruler and caretaker of her people.
This bed was set up in front of the entire congregation. The people watched the entire ritual including the sexual part.
the climax of the ceremony (fifty times, wow!) the populous would cheer and shout their approval and appreciation. This ritual brought prosperity to the people and to the land, so they were very happy to witness its successful completion.
…
Anciently men’s transvestism had its roots in the desire to attain female magic and powers and was common among the Pagan priests up to the time of St. Augustine who denounced the custom, saying that men who wore women’s garments could never attain salvation, even if they were otherwise good Christians. So the good Catholics simply made the women’s gowns into Priests robes. They looked the same, had the same function, but a “robe by any other name, does not a transvestite make.”
… The festivals of Lupricalia were noted for their wild, sensual dances in which sausages played a very important part. So important in fact that both dancing and sausages were outlawed by the Christian Emperors of the 4th and 5th century.
…All of these ancient rituals, these orgia, involved group sex and nudity.
goddess.org/religious_sex.html
V
Valke2
Guest
In pagan religion rituals, men and women had sex with their friends and neighbors.In ancient times a priestess could be married or unmarried. She performed sexual purification rituals with all worthy men regardless of her marital status. In some cultures all women were required to serve in the temple.
“Babylonian custom compels every woman of the land once in her life to sit in the temple of love and have intercourse with some stranger. The men pass and make their choice. It matters not what be the sum of money; the woman will never refuse, for that were a sin, the money being by this act made sacred. After their intercourse she has made herself holy in the sight of the Goddess and goes away to her home.” That is unless she decided to continue as a full time priestess. The man was not paying for sex, but rather making an offering to the Goddess for allowing him to participate in the sacred ritual.
Same cite
“Babylonian custom compels every woman of the land once in her life to sit in the temple of love and have intercourse with some stranger. The men pass and make their choice. It matters not what be the sum of money; the woman will never refuse, for that were a sin, the money being by this act made sacred. After their intercourse she has made herself holy in the sight of the Goddess and goes away to her home.” That is unless she decided to continue as a full time priestess. The man was not paying for sex, but rather making an offering to the Goddess for allowing him to participate in the sacred ritual.
Same cite
V
Valke2
Guest
One hundred and fifty years later, Quintus Curtius, the historian who accompanied Alexander the Great on his conquests, reported:
“There is none other more corrupt than this people, or none other more learned in the art of pleasure and voluptuaries. Fathers and mothers suffered their daughters to prostitute themselves to their guests for silver and husbands were not less indulgent with respect to their wives. The Babylonians plunged into drunkenness and all the disorders which follow it. The women appeared at the banquets with modesty at first, but they ended by abandoning their robes, then the rest of their garments one after another, disrobing themselves little by little of modesty until they were entirely naked. And these were not public women who abandoned themselves so; they were the most respectable matrons and their daughters.”
“There is none other more corrupt than this people, or none other more learned in the art of pleasure and voluptuaries. Fathers and mothers suffered their daughters to prostitute themselves to their guests for silver and husbands were not less indulgent with respect to their wives. The Babylonians plunged into drunkenness and all the disorders which follow it. The women appeared at the banquets with modesty at first, but they ended by abandoning their robes, then the rest of their garments one after another, disrobing themselves little by little of modesty until they were entirely naked. And these were not public women who abandoned themselves so; they were the most respectable matrons and their daughters.”
V
Valke2
Guest
Prostitution did not exist in the early Israelite tribe until after they came into contact with the Canaanites.
Canaanites had fertility cults, and each Canaanite temple had its own set of prostitutes. The Israelites began
to divide prostitutes into two separate categories: the zonah, or profane prostitutes and the q’deshah, or holy
prostitutes. The actual word “q’deshah” is borrowed from the neighboring peoples who had polytheist deities, such
as the Sumerians and Canaanites. The name of the Sumerian goddess was Qadshu or Qodesh who had her own temple with
holy prostitutes called “qodshu.” Prostitutes were not looked down upon until Leviticus. Prostitutes had their own
homes in which they invited guests to. For example, the prostitute Rahab had a house at the wall of Jericho. Even when
the Hebrews took over Jericho, Rahab was still allowed to be in business. By Leviticus, rabbis were forbidden from
marrying prostitutes and divorced women. And when the Israelites were exiled from Babylonia in 586 BC, the idea
of the q’deshah disappeared since it was borrowed from the other pagan cultures that they lived among.
bigeye.com/sexeducation/israelites.html
Canaanites had fertility cults, and each Canaanite temple had its own set of prostitutes. The Israelites began
to divide prostitutes into two separate categories: the zonah, or profane prostitutes and the q’deshah, or holy
prostitutes. The actual word “q’deshah” is borrowed from the neighboring peoples who had polytheist deities, such
as the Sumerians and Canaanites. The name of the Sumerian goddess was Qadshu or Qodesh who had her own temple with
holy prostitutes called “qodshu.” Prostitutes were not looked down upon until Leviticus. Prostitutes had their own
homes in which they invited guests to. For example, the prostitute Rahab had a house at the wall of Jericho. Even when
the Hebrews took over Jericho, Rahab was still allowed to be in business. By Leviticus, rabbis were forbidden from
marrying prostitutes and divorced women. And when the Israelites were exiled from Babylonia in 586 BC, the idea
of the q’deshah disappeared since it was borrowed from the other pagan cultures that they lived among.
bigeye.com/sexeducation/israelites.html
S
Spirithound
Guest
Step 1. The Gospels of today contains the same words as the original copies.
Step 2. The original copies were accurate historically.
Step 3. Jesus claimed to be God. Therefore, he was either Lord, liar, or lunatic.
Step 4. He was not a lunatic or a liar, therefore he was Lord.
The main point of Karen’s link is that Jesus could have been innocently mistaken about His identity. So, did the mistake come from within Himself? If so, then He’s a lunatic (see Step 3 above). If not, where did it come from? Nobody else told Jesus that He was God. Even if someone had told Him that, the miracles that He performed confirmed that. If you don’t believe that the miracles occurred, then you have a problem with Step 2 in the above post, and you shouldn’t even be looking at the trilemma.
V
Valke2
Guest
That miracles ocurred through Jesus would not necessarily mean he was God. Moses was not God. Pharoah’s magicians were not God.The main point of Karen’s link is that Jesus could have been innocently mistaken about His identity. So, did the mistake come from within Himself? If so, then He’s a lunatic (see Step 3 above). If not, where did it come from? Nobody else told Jesus that He was God. Even if someone had told Him that, the miracles that He performed confirmed that. If you don’t believe that the miracles occurred, then you have a problem with Step 2 in the above post, and you shouldn’t even be looking at the trilemma.
C
Catholig
Guest
So god would give miracles to one who blasphemed?That miracles ocurred through Jesus would not necessarily mean he was God. Moses was not God. Pharoah’s magicians were not God.
Catholig
V
Valke2
Guest
By and large, the miracles attributed to Jesus are more akin to those that were done by Pharoah’s magicians than by God through Moses. And I never said Jesus blasphamied. I still haven’t seen much that suggests he publically announced he was God, which would be about the only thing he is alleged to have done that the Jews would have possibly viewed as blasphamy. And even such as action would be questionable.So god would give miracles to one who blasphemed?
Catholig
C
Catholig
Guest
The Pharoah’s magician cured the sick? Healed the lame? Rose from the dead? I thought he only matched Moses’ first few miracles - making a snake and such. Maybe I should brush up on my Old Testament.By and large, the miracles attributed to Jesus are more akin to those that were done by Pharoah’s magicians than by God through Moses. And I never said Jesus blasphamied. I still haven’t seen much that suggests he publically announced he was God, which would be about the only thing he is alleged to have done that the Jews would have possibly viewed as blasphamy. And even such as action would be questionable.
Catholig
K
KarenNC
Guest
** Some of these religions, it is claimed in the Bible, had a set of practices which were prohibited under Jewish law, such as sex rites, cultic male and female prostitution, passing a child through a fire to Molech, and child sacrifice.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry **
I am not sure how cult prostitution, etc translates into an overall culture of “if it feels good, do it” by the average ancient Pagan in the street, if you will. Such acts existed, of a certainty. Abraham did not question that his God would require child sacrifice. There are a great many things that ancient people did and believed that are not consistent with modern culture.
One could also state that ancient Judaism centered around polygamy, genocide and slavery. There is plenty of evidence within its own religious texts for that. Does that mean that the Jews practiced an “if it feels good, do it” philosophy? That they were amoral? More useful to look at the entire culture in context. Doesn’t mean we will agree that all aspects of any culture were fantastic and laudable (unless we are determined to see it only through romantic rose-colored spectacles).
One should, I would think, when using the religious texts of one culture to explain the meaning of the religious acts of another culture, to take them with a grain of salt and keep the probable intent and bias of the writers in the forefront. These were the religions of the enemies of the Jews.
**
goddess.org/religious_sex.html**
I would like to see the credentials and citations of sources for this particular article. I’m not sure “The High Priestess of the Church of The Most High Goddess” is the most reliable resource for objective information and the most up to date scholarship on the topic. I say this particularly in light of the following sentence in the article "This has caused me to rethink the focus for this work. For while the focus must be on ancient knowledge, it appears that the reader will also have to know what to think, as well how to discover why he or she should think that way. "
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry **
I am not sure how cult prostitution, etc translates into an overall culture of “if it feels good, do it” by the average ancient Pagan in the street, if you will. Such acts existed, of a certainty. Abraham did not question that his God would require child sacrifice. There are a great many things that ancient people did and believed that are not consistent with modern culture.
One could also state that ancient Judaism centered around polygamy, genocide and slavery. There is plenty of evidence within its own religious texts for that. Does that mean that the Jews practiced an “if it feels good, do it” philosophy? That they were amoral? More useful to look at the entire culture in context. Doesn’t mean we will agree that all aspects of any culture were fantastic and laudable (unless we are determined to see it only through romantic rose-colored spectacles).
One should, I would think, when using the religious texts of one culture to explain the meaning of the religious acts of another culture, to take them with a grain of salt and keep the probable intent and bias of the writers in the forefront. These were the religions of the enemies of the Jews.
**
goddess.org/religious_sex.html**
I would like to see the credentials and citations of sources for this particular article. I’m not sure “The High Priestess of the Church of The Most High Goddess” is the most reliable resource for objective information and the most up to date scholarship on the topic. I say this particularly in light of the following sentence in the article "This has caused me to rethink the focus for this work. For while the focus must be on ancient knowledge, it appears that the reader will also have to know what to think, as well how to discover why he or she should think that way. "
K
KarenNC
Guest
True, one cannot use an argument as a logical proof if the basic premises of the argument are not considered valid.The main point of Karen’s link is that Jesus could have been innocently mistaken about His identity. So, did the mistake come from within Himself? If so, then He’s a lunatic (see Step 3 above). If not, where did it come from? Nobody else told Jesus that He was God. Even if someone had told Him that, the miracles that He performed confirmed that. If you don’t believe that the miracles occurred, then you have a problem with Step 2 in the above post, and you shouldn’t even be looking at the trilemma.
W
Winnie_Murphy
Guest
For Jesus to claim, or even to suggest, he was God would be considered by Jews (though not by Jehovah’s Witnesses) to be blasphemy. It is for this very reason that the Jews threatened to stone Jesus to death on at least three occasions. Because he claimed to be God. He made such a claim, for example, when he said, “Before Abraham was, I am”. Not only is he using the Divine Name here (I Am Who Am) he is also claiming to have existed before Abraham. The Jews, who knew their Scripture, accused him of claiming to be God and wanted to stone him to death. They even at one point took him out of the town and wanted to throw him off a cliff for this very claim. There were also many other such claims. “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life.” He has a whole collection of “I Am” sayings."By and large, the miracles attributed to Jesus are more akin to those that were done by Pharoah’s magicians than by God through Moses. "
For example? I’ve never heard anyone make this claim.
“And I never said Jesus blasphamied. I still haven’t seen much that suggests he publically announced he was God, which would be about the only thing he is alleged to have done that the Jews would have possibly viewed as blasphamy. And even such as action would be questionable.”
He uses the divine name again when threatened with arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane. “Who are you looking for?” he asks the soldiers?" “Jesus,” they said. “I am He” said Jesus. It was because he again uses the power of the Divine “I am” that the soldiers stagger and fall backwards.
Even at the beginning of his Ministry, he offends his neighbours in the synagogue in Nazareth by reading Scripture, then saying, “This is fulfilled before you today.” They were outraged.
To the thief on the cross: “You will be with me this day in paradise”.
This man truly was either God, or a liar, or a lunatic. His character and life clearly contradict the latter two possibilities.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
There is such a thing a wilful ignorance.
Winnie
V
Valke2
Guest
I meant that they were small miracles. THere are other accounts of other healers doing what Jesus did. Didn’t make them God. I’m only posting this to dispute that one either has to believe JEsus did the miracles and was God, or one has to believe the scripture is wrong.The Pharoah’s magician cured the sick? Healed the lame? Rose from the dead? I thought he only matched Moses’ first few miracles - making a snake and such. Maybe I should brush up on my Old Testament.
Catholig
Elijah raises a young boy from death (1 Kings 17-23), and Elisha duplicates the feat (2 Kings 4:34-35).
K
KarenNC
Guest
Again, it is important to consider that the historians (of any culture) of the era were not primarily interested in objective reporting. It is important to consider the possible reasons they might have had to cast as unflattering a light as possible on other cultures. The modern understanding of history and what constitutes reliable sources is very different from that of even the 19th century, much less the first.One hundred and fifty years later, Quintus Curtius, the historian who accompanied Alexander the Great on his conquests, reported:
Note that I am not saying that what is being described may have occurred to at least some extent, indeed, it is possible that it could have been exactly as reported. However, one cannot assume that it was literally so based on Curtius’ writings.
K
KarenNC
Guest
This part of the article should not be construed as saying that the ancient Israelites had a corner on moral (by even later Jewish standards) behavior. I suggest one read the rest of the article.Prostitution did not exist in the early Israelite tribe until after they came into contact with the Canaanites…
bigeye.com/sexeducation/israelites.html
If we want to get into sexual behavior that is morally problematic in ancient religious leaders, I would think that Abram selling his wife to two different kings under the false pretense that she was only his sister in order to get goods and better treatment might be an issue.
I can agree that one could use the practices and sacrifices demanded by a God as a measure of whether or not one would choose to worship that God, but not that it proves that the Gods whose practices one does not like do not exist.
W
Winnie_Murphy
Guest
Okay, this is something I hate doing but I have no real choice…
I give, I dug myself into a hole and now I can’t get out. But c’mon I’m 16 years old and i’m a pagan who lives in a christian house.
Hi Cody,
For a 16 year old, you’re doing okay. Not only are you asking the questions - I asked just the same questions as you are when I was your age - but you have a good chance, one day, of finding the Truth. Why? Because not many people get to 16 and still manage to keep hold of such a refreshing honesty as you have displayed in the above post. It takes a lot of character - a love of honesty, a sense of humility - to hold your hands up and say, “I dug myself into a hole and now I can’t get out.” Especially when you are saying it to your detractors. You put the truth before your own pride.
But you also said:
I can’t prove my gods are real, all I have to go off of is my faith.
Faith isn’t blind. It has to be based on something. Which is, of course, why you’re challenging those on this board. And it’s not enough to retreat to mere faith.
I’m just sick and disgusted when people say “we are right because we say so” it sickens me to death. It’s good to be back but I think this time I bit off far more than what I can chew, so if you want go ahead and say what you want, I will still pray to my gods and you will to yours, but please don’t say that your better than me just because your book says so.
Christianity doesn’t claim - and neither does the Bible - that Christians are better than other people. In fact, the Bible condemns this attitude. The Bible is full of examples of condematons of pride and self-justification and false believers, puffed up with pride. Our Lord himself castigates the priests and pharisees as “whitewashed sepulchres”, and accused the Jews of turning the Temple into a den of thieves. People sometimes make out Jesus to be a pussycat, but he had a tongue like a whiplash.Nor does the Bible condemn paganism, as such. We were all pagans before we had what we believe to be God’s Revelation of Himself in the Bible. The early Israelites were pagans, and like all pagans, some of them were good men who knew God and loved God in their hearts, such as Noah, Abraham and Job. These were all pagans. At this point in Biblical history, the Jews were not yet the Jews, nor were they yet God’s Chosen People. This doesn’t mean that they couldn’t know and love God. As the Bible repeats again and again, knowledge of God/Truth is written in the human heart. The Ten Commandments are merely a summing up of what we call ‘Natural Law’. Catholicism - unlike Protestantism - has always kept hold of the belief of the Apostles that there is good in the pagan search for God. St. Paul, in trying to convert the Greeks, quotes pagan writers and poets. And he tells them, “The God I have come to speak to you about is the God you know in your hearts.”
Before Biblical Revelation - which claims to be God’s Revelation of Himself - all peoples were pagan. You could define paganism as man’s search for God, but his unaided search, without the help of Revelation. However, not everyone who calls on the name of God is a true believer, whether pagan or otherwise. Contrast Noah with his countrymen, Abraham with his, and Job with his ‘faithful’ friends. Contrast St. John with the other apostles at the Crucifixion.
It seems to me that goodness and truth are objective things. We judge Hitler by objective moral standards, not by relativist standards. It also seems to me that goodness and truth are things to be loved FOR THEMSELVES. The Bible teaches that when we love goodness and truth for themselves we are actually loving God, because those are attributes of God.
However there is a difference between a genuine, sincere pagan who has not been given the Revelation of God and one who has Revelation and rejects it. Because the Bible is so full of goodness and truth - morality runs through Jewish history like letters through a stick of rock - to reject it in preference for pagan beliefs and rites is itself a sin. It is a turning away from goodness and truth.
Continued next post…
Winnie
W
Winnie_Murphy
Guest
Paganism can be, or can become, idolatry, but it isn’t necessarily so. As I said above, Noah, Abraham, Job were pagans, but they weren’t idolaters. They knew and loved God in their hearts and it is for this reason that God spoke to them.
It seems to me that if we live in a moral universe - and I believe we do - then this morality says something about the Divine Creator. We can claim to reject, on a philosophical level, Goodness, Truth, Justice, Mercy, but we all take them to be ‘Gospel’ when someone offends us, lies to or about us, is unjust towards us, or takes something that belongs to us.
I believe in God because everything I have been taught about the God of the Bible conforms with my idea of Goodness, Truth, Mercy and Justice. I believe that Jesus is God because he conforms to these attributes completely.
You say you would believe Christianity if you could touch the bones of Christ. Do you require this to believe in the existence of Napoleon, or of your great-grandmother? We cannot prove scientifically that Napoleon existed, still less your grandmother. We prove your grandmother - and Napoleon - by a combination of things. Documentation, for example. There may no longer be birth/death certificates, but there are witnesses. Your father’s mother testifies as to who her mother is, and if she is of good character, with nothing to hide, you must believe her. We must believe in Napoleon because we have diary entries, newspaper cuttings, battles and so forth which document his life and history. What you have to ask is, How reliable are these witnesses/accounts? Your grandmother may have been found in a basket in Victoria Station for all you know. In the case of Napoleon, not one respectable historian has ever stood up and said, “This man never existed” or “Napolean existed, but he was Florence Nightingale in disguise.” In other words, we can trust the historical record because so many respectable scholars confirm it.
You say, ‘Prove Christianity without the Bible’, or ‘Prove Christianity without Christianity’. Onecould equally say, “Prove paganism without reference to paganism”. But Christianity is a historical faith. The Bible - God’s Revelation - took place in history. God chose to show Himself not just in teaching the Jews the truth about God, but also through Jewish history itself. The Bible tells the story of God’s relationship with the Jews - (and hence ours too) throughout their history: his love and faithfulness, their rejection, and falling into sin.It is not difficult to show, with reason, that there is such as thing as Goodness and Truth. It is reasonable to deduct from the fact of Goodness and Truth that such attributes are evidence of a Divine Mind behind the universe. It is not unreasonable that such things point to a Person - a thinking, intelligent, purposeful being with a mind.
But the reason the Jews were so heavily condemned by God for ‘idolatry’ is because they preferred this to the God they knew. Remember: as soon as Moses’ back was turned they built themselves a Golden Calf. They were sensationalist and they got bored. They returned to their former beliefs, which they themselves had abandoned as being false, because their ‘belief’ was shallow and sensationalist. They had been brought through the desert, shown miracle after miracle, but still preferred the sensations of the flesh. That was their choice. But that choice was a rejection of goodness and truth. It was also an informed rejection. They rejected what they had seen and witnessed with their own eyes. You may only have someone’s testimony, but they saw it for themselves.
This is not the same as an innocent, searching pagan who has not known Revelation.
If you believe in goodness and truth you may say Christ is not God, but you cannot say He did not conform completely to these attributes. Even if you don’t believe that Christ is God, you have here a man who historians say definitely lived and taught, and., according to what he taught and did, is full of Grace and Truth… That he lived and walked among us is not disputed by any serious historian. His apostles say he was full of Grace and Truth. The question then must be: how reliable were these witnesses, and what was their character?
Continued…/
Winnie
It seems to me that if we live in a moral universe - and I believe we do - then this morality says something about the Divine Creator. We can claim to reject, on a philosophical level, Goodness, Truth, Justice, Mercy, but we all take them to be ‘Gospel’ when someone offends us, lies to or about us, is unjust towards us, or takes something that belongs to us.
I believe in God because everything I have been taught about the God of the Bible conforms with my idea of Goodness, Truth, Mercy and Justice. I believe that Jesus is God because he conforms to these attributes completely.
You say you would believe Christianity if you could touch the bones of Christ. Do you require this to believe in the existence of Napoleon, or of your great-grandmother? We cannot prove scientifically that Napoleon existed, still less your grandmother. We prove your grandmother - and Napoleon - by a combination of things. Documentation, for example. There may no longer be birth/death certificates, but there are witnesses. Your father’s mother testifies as to who her mother is, and if she is of good character, with nothing to hide, you must believe her. We must believe in Napoleon because we have diary entries, newspaper cuttings, battles and so forth which document his life and history. What you have to ask is, How reliable are these witnesses/accounts? Your grandmother may have been found in a basket in Victoria Station for all you know. In the case of Napoleon, not one respectable historian has ever stood up and said, “This man never existed” or “Napolean existed, but he was Florence Nightingale in disguise.” In other words, we can trust the historical record because so many respectable scholars confirm it.
You say, ‘Prove Christianity without the Bible’, or ‘Prove Christianity without Christianity’. Onecould equally say, “Prove paganism without reference to paganism”. But Christianity is a historical faith. The Bible - God’s Revelation - took place in history. God chose to show Himself not just in teaching the Jews the truth about God, but also through Jewish history itself. The Bible tells the story of God’s relationship with the Jews - (and hence ours too) throughout their history: his love and faithfulness, their rejection, and falling into sin.It is not difficult to show, with reason, that there is such as thing as Goodness and Truth. It is reasonable to deduct from the fact of Goodness and Truth that such attributes are evidence of a Divine Mind behind the universe. It is not unreasonable that such things point to a Person - a thinking, intelligent, purposeful being with a mind.
But the reason the Jews were so heavily condemned by God for ‘idolatry’ is because they preferred this to the God they knew. Remember: as soon as Moses’ back was turned they built themselves a Golden Calf. They were sensationalist and they got bored. They returned to their former beliefs, which they themselves had abandoned as being false, because their ‘belief’ was shallow and sensationalist. They had been brought through the desert, shown miracle after miracle, but still preferred the sensations of the flesh. That was their choice. But that choice was a rejection of goodness and truth. It was also an informed rejection. They rejected what they had seen and witnessed with their own eyes. You may only have someone’s testimony, but they saw it for themselves.
This is not the same as an innocent, searching pagan who has not known Revelation.
If you believe in goodness and truth you may say Christ is not God, but you cannot say He did not conform completely to these attributes. Even if you don’t believe that Christ is God, you have here a man who historians say definitely lived and taught, and., according to what he taught and did, is full of Grace and Truth… That he lived and walked among us is not disputed by any serious historian. His apostles say he was full of Grace and Truth. The question then must be: how reliable were these witnesses, and what was their character?
Continued…/
Winnie
W
Winnie_Murphy
Guest
But there were many who witnessed to the teaching and the miracles of Christ yet still chose to reject Him. You can take a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. Pontius Pilate looked into the very face of Goodness and Truth and responded: “What is Truth?” Jesus’ parables make clear that they are “for those who have ears to hear”. They are useful only to those who love Goodness and Truth for itself.
I believe because I believe in Goodness and Truth, and because the Bible, and especially Christ, conform completely to that, but how do we know that some bunch of people didn’t work out what God might look and sound like to someone like me and then go make all this stuff up?
You said: “Facts. Birth records, Death certifacets, Even grave stones and Pictures of them. so please I’m asking you FACTS not FAITH” The Bible isn’t just about faith. It is a collection of documents, and also witness statements. Those witnesses - take the Apostles for example - have never been successfully refuted as to either their integrity or their character, or their teachings and actions.Read CS Lewis’s “Surprised by Joy” on his conversion from atheism on this. Lewis decided to study the Bible in order to refute it. But the Bible refuted him.
It’s why Christianity was so ‘popular’ for so very long.
An example of a pagan with a sincere and shining love of goodness and truth is Socrates. It’s not for nothing that Socrates has been called a forerunner of Christ. He believed - and taught- that there is such a thing as Truth, and that we can know what it is. For Socrates this meant using Reason. When we use the mind correctly we can know truth. Socrates willingly died for this belief.
It is this great religious vision of Socrates which formed the basis of the greatest of ancient Greek philosophy, and why Catholicism has always kept hold of it. In Catholicism, going back to the Apostles, there is a marriage between Faith and Reason. We need Reason, but Reason works better, says Catholicism, with the light of Faith. You can know, for example, that it is wrong to take an innocent life. But it only in the light of Christ that we truly understand the unique preciousness of each and every human life, and of its true purpose.Christ shows us man as he is truly supposed to be. The New Adam.
I said paganism is - or was, before the Bible - man’s unaided search for God. In the same vein, the Bible is God’s search for man. The love of God, and especially God’s love for the Chosen People, runs right through the Bible. On His last journey to Jerusalem, where He knew He would be crucified, Jesus stops on a hill overlooking Jerusalem and says, “O Israel! How I have longed to gather you to me like a hen her chicks, but you would not!”
It’s just the same way with us. We can, like Pontius Pilate, look into the face of Truth itself and say, “What is Truth?” To know God, and then reject God, is a sin. Some pagans are guilty of this and some are not.
The word ‘religion’ comes from the roots “re”, which is to tie back to, and “ligio” which refers to origins. Religion is about questioning from where, what or whom we originate. Paganism can be a genuinely innocent response to the question of religion, but it still leaves the issue of goodness and truth. To encounter these things, and reject them, pagan or Christian, is always wicked.
Jesus said: “Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God.”
You have a good and honest heart Cody. Keep asking the questions, and one day you will find the Truth.
Blessings and prayers on your journey!
Winnie
I believe because I believe in Goodness and Truth, and because the Bible, and especially Christ, conform completely to that, but how do we know that some bunch of people didn’t work out what God might look and sound like to someone like me and then go make all this stuff up?
You said: “Facts. Birth records, Death certifacets, Even grave stones and Pictures of them. so please I’m asking you FACTS not FAITH” The Bible isn’t just about faith. It is a collection of documents, and also witness statements. Those witnesses - take the Apostles for example - have never been successfully refuted as to either their integrity or their character, or their teachings and actions.Read CS Lewis’s “Surprised by Joy” on his conversion from atheism on this. Lewis decided to study the Bible in order to refute it. But the Bible refuted him.
It’s why Christianity was so ‘popular’ for so very long.
An example of a pagan with a sincere and shining love of goodness and truth is Socrates. It’s not for nothing that Socrates has been called a forerunner of Christ. He believed - and taught- that there is such a thing as Truth, and that we can know what it is. For Socrates this meant using Reason. When we use the mind correctly we can know truth. Socrates willingly died for this belief.
It is this great religious vision of Socrates which formed the basis of the greatest of ancient Greek philosophy, and why Catholicism has always kept hold of it. In Catholicism, going back to the Apostles, there is a marriage between Faith and Reason. We need Reason, but Reason works better, says Catholicism, with the light of Faith. You can know, for example, that it is wrong to take an innocent life. But it only in the light of Christ that we truly understand the unique preciousness of each and every human life, and of its true purpose.Christ shows us man as he is truly supposed to be. The New Adam.
I said paganism is - or was, before the Bible - man’s unaided search for God. In the same vein, the Bible is God’s search for man. The love of God, and especially God’s love for the Chosen People, runs right through the Bible. On His last journey to Jerusalem, where He knew He would be crucified, Jesus stops on a hill overlooking Jerusalem and says, “O Israel! How I have longed to gather you to me like a hen her chicks, but you would not!”
It’s just the same way with us. We can, like Pontius Pilate, look into the face of Truth itself and say, “What is Truth?” To know God, and then reject God, is a sin. Some pagans are guilty of this and some are not.
The word ‘religion’ comes from the roots “re”, which is to tie back to, and “ligio” which refers to origins. Religion is about questioning from where, what or whom we originate. Paganism can be a genuinely innocent response to the question of religion, but it still leaves the issue of goodness and truth. To encounter these things, and reject them, pagan or Christian, is always wicked.
Jesus said: “Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God.”
You have a good and honest heart Cody. Keep asking the questions, and one day you will find the Truth.
Blessings and prayers on your journey!
Winnie
V
Valke2
Guest
If he used the Divine name, then that would be blashpemy, yes. The quote to the theif is immaterial for this discussion, since he was already on the cross and it couldn’t be a reason for wanting his death. He may have offended people by saying “this is fullfilled…” but that isn’t a capital offense. Neither would claiming to be the Messiah.For Jesus to claim, or even to suggest, he was God would be considered by Jews (though not by Jehovah’s Witnesses) to be blasphemy. It is for this very reason that the Jews threatened to stone Jesus to death on at least three occasions. Because he claimed to be God. He made such a claim, for example, when he said, “Before Abraham was, I am”. Not only is he using the Divine Name here (I Am Who Am) he is also claiming to have existed before Abraham. The Jews, who knew their Scripture, accused him of claiming to be God and wanted to stone him to death. They even at one point took him out of the town and wanted to throw him off a cliff for this very claim. There were also many other such claims. “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life.” He has a whole collection of “I Am” sayings.
He uses the divine name again when threatened with arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane. “Who are you looking for?” he asks the soldiers?" “Jesus,” they said. “I am He” said Jesus. It was because he again uses the power of the Divine “I am” that the soldiers stagger and fall backwards.
Even at the beginning of his Ministry, he offends his neighbours in the synagogue in Nazareth by reading Scripture, then saying, “This is fulfilled before you today.” They were outraged.
To the thief on the cross: “You will be with me this day in paradise”.
This man truly was either God, or a liar, or a lunatic. His character and life clearly contradict the latter two possibilities.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
There is such a thing a wilful ignorance.
Winnie
I don’t know where you are coming up with “I am He” = the Divine Name. But if he did, then the blasphemy charge would make some sense. Saying things like “I am the Way” etc. would not I think be considered blasphamy.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.