A Christian challenge

[Valke2]

Paganism can be, or can become, idolatry, but it isn’t necessarily so. As I said above, Noah, Abraham, Job were pagans, but they weren’t idolaters. They knew and loved God in their hearts and it is for this reason that God spoke to them.

In what sense was Noah a pagan? or Abraham? Or Job?

 

[Catholig]

If he used the Divine name, then that would be blashpemy, yes. The quote to the theif is immaterial for this discussion, since he was already on the cross and it couldn’t be a reason for wanting his death. He may have offended people by saying “this is fullfilled…” but that isn’t a capital offense. Neither would claiming to be the Messiah.

I don’t know where you are coming up with “I am He” = the Divine Name. But if he did, then the blasphemy charge would make some sense. Saying things like “I am the Way” etc. would not I think be considered blasphamy.

Remember “I AM” is the name that God gave when Moses asked so that he may tell others who sent him.

Catholig

 

[Valke2]

Remember “I AM” is the name that God gave when Moses asked the name he should give when people asked who sent him.

Catholig

Yes. But that isn’t the the actual name of God that we believe is forbidden to be spoken (and the pronunciation of which we don’t even know)

 

[Catholig]

Yes. But that isn’t the the actual name of God that we believe is forbidden to be spoken (and the pronunciation of which we don’t even know)

Okay, but Jesus was saying “I AM”, according to the other poster. And while I can’t find the “I AM” verses - I did find one where the High Priest claimed that he blasphemed. That is Mathew 26:62

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said to him: I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us if thou be the Christ the Son of God. 64Jesus saith to him: Thou hast said it. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65Then the high priest rent his garments, saying: He hath blasphemed; what further need have we of witnesses? Behold, now you have heard the blasphemy: 66*What think you? But they answering, said: He is guilty of death

 

[Valke2]

Again, it is important to consider that the historians (of any culture) of the era were not primarily interested in objective reporting. It is important to consider the possible reasons they might have had to cast as unflattering a light as possible on other cultures. The modern understanding of history and what constitutes reliable sources is very different from that of even the 19th century, much less the first.

Note that I am not saying that what is being described may have occurred to at least some extent, indeed, it is possible that it could have been exactly as reported. However, one cannot assume that it was literally so based on Curtius’ writings.

Historians may not be objective, but since my time machine is on the fritz…

IN any event, whether or not we can agree or figure out whether pagan religions were as self centered as I am making them out to be, it was the belief that they were which prompted, I think, such strict prohibtions against idolatry in the Jewish bible.

 

[Valke2]

Okay, but Jesus was saying “I AM”, according to the other poster. And while I can’t find the “I AM” verses - I did find one where the High Priest claimed that he blasphemed. That is Mathew 26:62

Yeah. I never quite understood why the priest would point that out as blasphmy. Especially as Jesus seems to side step the issue by saying “so you say” instead of saying “I am God”. I read something I found interesting on that quote recently. I’ll try to dig it up.

 

[Montalban]

Yeah. I never quite understood why the priest would point that out as blasphmy. Especially as Jesus seems to side step the issue by saying “so you say” instead of saying “I am God”. I read something I found interesting on that quote recently. I’ll try to dig it up.

You may be referring to when Jesus says “No one but God is good”

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Tá Críosd ar éirigh!
Christ is risen!

 

[Spirithound]

And I never said Jesus blasphemed. I still haven’t seen much that suggests he publicly announced he was God, which would be about the only thing he is alleged to have done that the Jews would have possibly viewed as blasphemy. And even such as action would be questionable.

Jesus forgave sins: Luke 5:20-26;
Jesus identified himself as the Son of Man: Luke 5:20-26
Son of God: Mark 14:61-64; John 8:51-59; John 5:21-23
Giver of life: John 8:51-59; John 5:21-23; Luke 5:20-26
Authority to judge: John 5:21-23;

All of these things and more, are attributable only to God. They are occur multiple times in the Gospels, particularly Jesus’s forgiveness of sins, and identification as the Son of Man.

I meant that they were small miracles. There are other accounts of other healers doing what Jesus did. Didn’t make them God. I’m only posting this to dispute that one either has to believe Jesus did the miracles and was God, or one has to believe the scripture is wrong.

Elijah raises a young boy from death (1 Kings 17:17-23), and Elisha duplicates the feat (2 Kings 4:34-35).

1Kings 17:21-22- Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried out to the LORD, “O LORD my God, let the child’s life come into him again.” The LORD listened to the voice of Elijah; the life of the child came into him again, and he revived.

Mark 5:41- He took her by the hand and said to her, “Talitha cum,” which means, “Little girl, get up!”

Luke 9:49- John answered, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.”

Acts 3:6- Peter said, “I have no silver or gold, but what I have I give you; in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, stand up and walk.”

The difference between Jesus’s miracle, and the miracles or Elijah, Peter, and the other exorcist, is that Jesus raised the dead and cured the sick by his own power, while Elijah cried out to the Lord, and the New Testament exorcists called on the name of Jesus.

Also, something I just thought of regarding the possibility of Jesus being innocently mistaken that he was God: Being God is quite a bit different from being born in London. Who cares where you were born? If your mother told you that you were born in Toronto, would you have any reason to doubt her? If, on the other hand, your mother told you that you are God, is that not quite a bit more far-fetched? (Not that we have any evidence that Mary did this). To tie in with Valke’s first post i quoted above, which responded to Catholig’s semi-question about whether God would give miracles to a blasphemer, I don’t think it’s actually necessary for a blasphemy to actually be spoken in order for it to be blasphemy. Simply that Jesus believed he was God would have been blasphemy in the eyes of God. So again to the miracles. Where do they come from? If they are simply illusions, then Jesus would know it and be a liar. If they are supernatural, are they divine or infernal? If they are infernal, well, read the Gospels and you will quickly conclude that this is Satan’s most spectacular blunder. He apparently caused the message of forgiveness to be spread quite far and wide. Which is to say that Satan had no part in this, because he would not empower a man with a message such as Jesus’s. So are the miracles of divine origin? I think so. And if God had given miracles to a blasphemous Jesus, then that would be God’s most spectacular blunder. And we all know God doesn’t do blunder.

 

[Chancellare]

Okay this I have been going from site to site asking and have not gotten a single answer, this challange isn’t anything bad, its just a question

can you prove…without using the Bible, that paganism and anyother relgion is wrong?

blessed be,
cody

I will give my answer if you tell me why paganism is right.

 

[EDUCE_1]

Okay this is the basis of my challenge, you say this, but show no proof other than “it’s in the bible”. I’m asking if you can prove to me without it that what you say is wrong is wrong

Scientific or forensic proof!

 

[Valke2]

You may be referring to when Jesus says “No one but God is good”

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Tá Críosd ar éirigh!
Christ is risen!

I could see why Jews would disagree with that quote. But I can’t see why it would be viewed as blasphemy

 

[guanophore]

Okay this I have been going from site to site asking and have not gotten a single answer, this challange isn’t anything bad, its just a question

can you prove…without using the Bible, that paganism and anyother relgion is wrong?

blessed be,
cody

Why would anyone want to do something like that? Paganism is the expression of the experience in the minds and hearts of those who are close to the land and experience intimately the natural expression of the divinity of the Creator.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

What would constitute reliable information, in your view?

If the information is viewed as reliable by the respective scholars of that particular area of study. I’m not saying that it doesn’t exist about your gods. I’m sure, for example, that there is plenty of reliable information on the Roman and Greek gods. I don’t know much about the others. Peace.

 

[guanophore]

But my Christian God doesn’t say that at all. He’s making an exclusive statement “There is no God but me”

It’s irreconcilable to have separate systems, where some are claiming exclusivity.

But God has also revealed Himself in Creation to the Pagans long before he chose Abraham, and before Christ came.

Rom 1:18-20
“For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.”

It is the same God, it is just that certain people have received God’s revelation of himself more personally.

 

[KarenNC]

If the information is viewed as reliable by the respective scholars of that particular area of study. I’m not saying that it doesn’t exist about your gods. I’m sure, for example, that there is plenty of reliable information on the Roman and Greek gods. I don’t know much about the others. Peace.

Just wanted to clarify based on “Just because neopagans take the name and images of ancient gods, doesn’t mean they’re worshipping the same deities as the ancients. How much reliable information do they have on these gods? Or have they simply invented new gods and given them the names of the ancient ones?”.

I will absolutely agree with you that there are plenty of people who identify as Neopagan or Pagan who worship their Gods in ways that the ancients who also worshipped them would not recognize at all. Are these the same Gods or are They different ones who have been given old names? A legitimate question.

Christians should certainly understand the concept that just because one group has a different relationship with a deity than another group does not mean that they are not worshipping the same deity. Christians have a very different understanding of the nature of God, the requirements that God puts upon His followers, His expectations of worship, the ways in which He relates to His followers, etc than Jews or Muslims do. They still consider that it is the same God. Christians do not consider that Jesus is a new God to whom they have simply tacked on an old name and version of scriptures that pertained to the Jewish God that they radically reinterpreted to fit their own new God to give Him legitimacy (which is basically what you are saying that Neopagans have done).

Now I will say that I personally question whether Muslims, Christians and Jews all do indeed worship the same deity. There are times that I also question whether a Neopagan is actually worshipping the same Gods I worship even though they use the same names because the experiences they report and their understanding of the nature of that God or Gods is very different than mine. My understanding, though tempered by personal experience, is a lot closer to that conveyed by the ancients than to some of the more modern understandings. In the end, I figure it is between the person and their deity(ies).

 

[Catholig]

Just wanted to clarify based on “Just because neopagans take the name and images of ancient gods, doesn’t mean they’re worshipping the same deities as the ancients. How much reliable information do they have on these gods? Or have they simply invented new gods and given them the names of the ancient ones?”.

I will absolutely agree with you that there are plenty of people who identify as Neopagan or Pagan who worship their Gods in ways that the ancients who also worshipped them would not recognize at all. Are these the same Gods or are They different ones who have been given old names? A legitimate question.

Christians should certainly understand the concept that just because one group has a different relationship with a deity than another group does not mean that they are not worshipping the same deity. Christians have a very different understanding of the nature of God, the requirements that God puts upon His followers, His expectations of worship, the ways in which He relates to His followers, etc than Jews or Muslims do. They still consider that it is the same God. Christians do not consider that Jesus is a new God to whom they have simply tacked on an old name and version of scriptures that pertained to the Jewish God that they radically reinterpreted to fit their own new God to give Him legitimacy (which is basically what you are saying that Neopagans have done).

Now I will say that I personally question whether Muslims, Christians and Jews all do indeed worship the same deity. There are times that I also question whether a Neopagan is actually worshipping the same Gods I worship even though they use the same names because the experiences they report and their understanding of the nature of that God or Gods is very different than mine. My understanding, though tempered by personal experience, is a lot closer to that conveyed by the ancients than to some of the more modern understandings. In the end, I figure it is between the person and their deity(ies).

KarenNC,

I’m not sure how many people you are going to convince with that argument, because I believe, and I assume that other Catholics here do as well, that while one could say that the Muslims, Jews, and Christians all worship the same god - namely the God of Abraham - it is incorrect to do so, because each groups’ understanding of that god is so radically different. When I am praying St. Gertrude’s prayer for instance, and it mentions the “Eternal Father” and his “Divine Son” I certainly don’t think that I am worshipping the same god as the Muslims only under a different name as you assert. And as for us attaching old scripture to a new god as you also assert - well we believe that God was always the Trinity “as it was in the beginning now and forever world without end.” - not that it just came about when Jesus revealed it to us.

Simply your analogy doesn’t work, because Christianity is continuous whereas Paganism died out for the main part, and was recreated by people like Crowely. Neopaganism is rootless as far as I see. It might say that it is the same, but its understanding of the gods are probably entirely different, along with the manner of worship. I simply don’t understand why one would become Neopagan.

Catholig

 

[Bennie_P]

Okay this I have been going from site to site asking and have not gotten a single answer, this challange isn’t anything bad, its just a question

can you prove…without using the Bible, that paganism and anyother relgion is wrong?

blessed be,
cody

I have a challenge for you cody. Go to this Link, read the document, then come back and then we will discuss it.

Is from PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

 

[Kuryakyn]

I can’t justify my belifes no more than you can…But I still don’t say that my relgion is right and yours isn’t.

Could I ask a question? In sincere curiosity; I don’t want to start an argument or forcibly convert you or anything, I just was wondering…

You say that you won’t tell people that you are right and they are wrong. But I’m assuming that you do believe that you are right and they are wrong (otherwise, why would you practice this form of religion?) So, do you think that there is one correct religion and all others are in some form of error, or do you think “to each his own”; that is, that what people believe should be based on their individual wants, lifestyles, and ideas?

I think your answer could help people on this thread to better understand where you’re coming from, and in turn create some more specific answers/discussion.

 

[Kuryakyn]

I just realized I missed reading most of the discussion before I posted…so if someone else already asked this question, Reborn, sorry and it’s my fault!

 

[Publisher]

No, religion is something we use to clothe our ideas and beliefs in…religion has really little to do with “Truth”…it is a package with bows and wrapping.

The Truth of a religion is how it calls it’s adherants to treat others…to care for the “least of these” among us…and if one’s “faith” makes the day better, the sun brighter, the rain fall more gently, the wind more refreshing and if it causes to see the face of the Eternal in our neighbor…those are the “Truths” of religion.

Everything else is just trappings.