A Christmas Message - That Which Remains in Harmony CANNOT Perish

[James_S_Saint]

True or not?

What did Jesus ever teach that was not aimed at greater Harmony?

Do not confuse Peace with Harmony. Peace is merely the cleared and leveled dance floor. Harmony is the dance.

Think about it in your life.

And have a Merry Christmas.

 

[Oreoracle]

True or not?

It is a comforting thought, but I’m afraid it isn’t true. Animals (yes, even humans!) die, conditions change, mountains move, and eras end. The truth is that this universe is in a constant flux, and that clinging to any idea of eternity is, in the end, a vain effort. Nothing lasts forever. Indeed, the only eternal “thing” is the proclivity of things to change.

And people like yourself will step up every generation that humans live to proclaim that there are eternal things, and in a sense, this is true: the sentiment that the world couldn’t possibly live on without MY awareness of it is a popular one, and will be repeated for as long as sapient beings exist. But endless repetition isn’t enough to make something eternal, so I’ll just give you an “A” for effort. All I can say is that folks need to accept that the world will live on without them, regardless of fairy tales about an afterlife or talk of eternity.

Merry Christmas.

 

[MindOverMatter]

The truth is that this universe is in a constant flux, and that clinging to any idea of eternity is, in the end, a vain effort.

I am not aware that this is true. Are you sure that you are not just projecting your negativity? Its happens.

 

[James_S_Saint]

It is a comforting thought, but I’m afraid it isn’t true. Animals (yes, even humans!) die, conditions change, mountains move, and eras end. The truth is that this universe is in a constant flux, and that clinging to any idea of eternity is, in the end, a vain effort. Nothing lasts forever. Indeed, the only eternal “thing” is the proclivity of things to change.

And people like yourself will step up every generation that humans live to proclaim that there are eternal things, and in a sense, this is true: the sentiment that the world couldn’t possibly live on without MY awareness of it is a popular one, and will be repeated for as long as sapient beings exist. But endless repetition isn’t enough to make something eternal, so I’ll just give you an “A” for effort. All I can say is that folks need to accept that the world will live on without them, regardless of fairy tales about an afterlife or talk of eternity.

Merry Christmas.

You evaded the question.

Is the statement true or not?

I didn’t ask if you believe in eternal things. Nor whether eternal harmony was possible. What I asked, in essence, is if you remain in harmony with your spouse, if your nation is not torn but actively producing, if the world is cooperating and is not at war, will you suffer divorce, national calamity, or the extinction of humanity?

It is a choice to seek harmony, or to merely die sooner. Who taught you that dieing sooner was the better option - for You? Did they make that choice also? Why would they want you to make that choice?

 

[Oreoracle]

I am not aware that this is true. Are you sure that you are not just projecting your negativity? Its happens.

I wasn’t aware that my view was negative, but the fact that you have already brought talk of “negativity” to the field shows that you are unable to view this objectively. Besides, I’ve already acclimated to this point of view; recognizing that change is inevitable doesn’t make me suffer. Not anymore, anyway. However, many people do find this perspective difficult to handle.

You evaded the question.

Is the statement true or not?

I didn’t ask if you believe in eternal things. Nor whether eternal harmony was possible. What I asked, in essence, is if you remain in harmony with your spouse, if your nation is not torn but actively producing, if the world is cooperating and is not at war, will you suffer divorce, national calamity, or the extinction of humanity?

I feel that I’ve answered your question well. If nothing is eternal, then nothing lives forever. Therefore, everything perishes at one time or another. Therefore, asserting that something cannot perish is a lie, or perhaps more accurately, an expression of false hope.

And no, humanity won’t last forever. In a few billion years, the sun will explode (as all stars do), obliterating the Earth and all of its inhabitants, along with the rest of the solar system. I trust you know this. I imagine an asteroid will do us in long before that though.

It is a choice to seek harmony, or to merely die sooner. Who taught you that dieing sooner was the better option - for You? Did they make that choice also? Why would they want you to make that choice?

I spoke nothing of dying sooner or later, I merely said that death was inevitable. Don’t lie to everyone and say that anything can conquer death or fully resist change.

If you want to tell people that we can partially resist negative changes then just do so, instead of proclaiming that “we cannot perish!” You’re teaching people to be optimistic sheep.

 

[MindOverMatter]

I wasn’t aware that my view was negative, but the fact that you have already brought talk of “negativity” to the field shows that you are unable to view this objectively. Besides, I’ve already acclimated to this point of view; recognizing that change is inevitable doesn’t make me suffer. Not anymore, anyway. However, many people do find this perspective difficult to handle.

Your view, that searching or hoping for eternal life is in “vein”, is certainly not objective, but instead a subjective expression of how you feel about life. And yes; its negative to any honest serious person that values their own existence and the existence of other people.

 

[Oreoracle]

Your view, that searching or hoping for eternal life is in “vein”, is certainly not objective, but instead a subjective expression of how you feel about life.
What I claim is no more subjective than someone claiming there parents are no longer with them due to cancer. It is a fact that the cancer has taken the lives of those parents, but how the child incorporates this experience into his world view is a subjective matter. All you’re doing is gaping in disbelief at what I claim and saying, “That can’t be true because it’s depressing!” It’s time to grow up and face the music. While we can’t definitively “prove” that your consciousness is extinguished after death, all signs point to it. After you die, it looks like it’s game over. If that wasn’t the case, it would be difficult to explain why we can manipulate consciousness just by using one’s brain, i.e., putting patients to sleep before surgeries. It seems that consciousness is dependent on the brain.

And yes; its negative to any honest serious person that values their own existence and the existence of other people.

An honest person wouldn’t base his assertions, especially ones of this magnitude, on 2000-year old writings that haven’t a shred of evidence backing them (from the theological perspective, I mean).

 

[James_S_Saint]

I feel that I’ve answered your question well. If nothing is eternal, then nothing lives forever. Therefore, everything perishes at one time or another. Therefore, asserting that something cannot perish is a lie, or perhaps more accurately, an expression of false hope.
.
.
If you want to tell people that we can partially resist negative changes then just do so, instead of proclaiming that “we cannot perish!” You’re teaching people to be optimistic sheep.

Well, your insistence to evade the question doesn’t seem to change either.

Read the statement again;

“That which remains in Harmony CANNOT perish.”

You keep prejudicing what you are reading by your politics. The statement is logically necessarily true, regardless of your politics, religion, or philosophical imaginings.

The only promise in the statement is that IF one stays in harmony, one WILL still exist. Or, if you prefer, “As long as one is in harmony, one WILL still exist.”

“Nothing can die until it fails to try.”

Now you have 3 things that “Never Change”. Perhaps the thought that “All things change except change itself” is something to change.

 

[Oreoracle]

Well, your insistence to evade the question doesn’t seem to change either.

Read the statement again;

Alright fine, I’ll pretend that this is my first time viewing this phrase. Really, I’ll talk about it as I would in my own head.

“That which remains in Harmony CANNOT perish.”

Oreo’s thoughts: “Ugh, here’s another Christian tossing out ambiguous phrases that tell you everything about nothing and he’s calling it wisdom, as they usually do. What’s with Christians and capitalization, anyway? Do they think that capitalizing every other word enhances their writing? What makes this guy think “harmony” is a proper noun? Anyhoo, on to business. It’s clear that he’s adamant with this particular message, a fact he makes obvious not only by putting it in his signature, but by putting “cannot” in all caps. The message itself is probably extremely abstract, and so asking for clarification will be fruitless, even though I’d love to know what the difference between “Harmony” and “harmony” is. In any case, no properties can function together in such a way as to prevent their eventual demise, so I’m certain that this is the typical “feel good” signature that has no facts supporting it.”

You keep prejudicing what you are reading by your politics. The statement is logically necessarily true, regardless of your politics, religion, or philosophical imaginings.

Oreo’s thoughts: “Geez, here we go with the “my beliefs are truer than truth” nonsense. Politics? What did I mention that was even remotely political?”

The only promise in the statement is that IF one stays in harmony, one WILL still exist. Or, if you prefer, “As long as one is in harmony, one WILL still exist.”

“Nothing can die until it fails to try.”

Oreo’s thoughts: “And to top it all off, he’s discrediting the efforts of others for the sake of his beliefs, as if no one has ever died who’s tried to live until his final breath. As if no nation has fallen that has used every resource to slow their enemy and lost no opportunities attempting to make peace with them. His accusation ranks up there with the Christians who say that if you haven’t met God through prayer, you’re not trying hard enough. People do try, and they sometimes fail in spite of that.”

 

[James_S_Saint]

Oreo’s thoughts: “Ugh, here’s another Christian tossing out ambiguous phrases that tell you everything about nothing and he’s calling it wisdom, as they usually do. What’s with Christians and capitalization, anyway? Do they think that capitalizing every other word enhances their writing? What makes this guy think “harmony” is a proper noun? Anyhoo, on to business. It’s clear that he’s adamant with this particular message, a fact he makes obvious not only by putting it in his signature, but by putting “cannot” in all caps. The message itself is probably extremely abstract, and so asking for clarification will be fruitless, even though I’d love to know what the difference between “Harmony” and “harmony” is. In any case, no properties can function together in such a way as to prevent their eventual demise, so I’m certain that this is the typical “feel good” signature that has no facts supporting it.”

Haha…

And yet evades again. Something else to perhaps add to the number of things that never change.

{when reviewing ALL of those presumptions you jump to before thinking, examine the one concerning me being a “Christian” while you’re at it}

People do try, and they sometimes fail in spite of that."

Never ending presumption in reading, I guess. The statement doesn’t read as you seem to presume. Try reading it again. Try not to presume, by asking yourself if you have really accurately understood exactly what the statement said. Give the thought that a statement MIGHT accidentally be true, a moment before jumping into declaration and response, even if you were not the one making the statement.

The statement;

"What remains in Harmony CANNOT perish"

True or not? It is a simple enough question. A “yes or no” will do. Added commentary AFTER you actually answer the question is welcome, but unnecessary.

The other statement was;

"Nothing can die until it fails to try."

Again, true or not? “Yes or no” before commentary.

{hint: why things fail is NOT the question nor issue - yet}

 

[MindOverMatter]

What I claim is no more subjective than someone claiming there parents are no longer with them due to cancer.

Any normal human being will be negatively affected by the fact of losing a parent, for the simple fact that they are losing somebody they love and rely on for emotional and existential security. Over time, out of necessity, he or she might come to deal with the fact of his or her parents death in his or her own way. However, the hope and belief that the death of the body is not the ultimate end of a living person can greatly alleviate their emotional suffering. The idea that they might ceased to exist does not. Your attempts to brush the issue under the carpet only shows your denial of the possibility; and since you have no certain evidence to back up your assertion, it is ultimately nothing more than your subjective and negative opinion that we cease to exist. You refusal to have hope is by no means an objective fact of certainty and knowledge. You have know real idea about what you are talking about. You are just slagging people of for having faith. You can’t have that much of a happy life if you feel the need to do that.

An honest person wouldn’t base his assertions, especially ones of this magnitude, on 2000-year old writings that haven’t a shred of evidence backing them (from the theological perspective, I mean).

An honest person would not come on to this forum and claim that people are hoping in vain when in reality they have no knowledge of whether or not that this is true. And even if he or she felt the absolute need to, they ought to be honest enough to make it clear that it is in their “opinion” that death is the ultimate end of a persons existence. That is what honesty is. You believe that there is no objective purpose meaning or existential hope; but this is your subjective opinion and you are free to keep it. It seems to me that you think that you are better than people who have hope in the eternal life of God. I can’t imagine why, except that you probably have the mistaken impression that you know existence. But in all honest reality, you have know idea what existence ultimately is, and thus you have no epistemological or existential right to run down those who choose to view their existence in a positive light. If you want to tell your self that you are going to cease to exist, then that is your problem. That doesn’t make you anymore reasonable or better than anybody else. It just makes you hopeless.

 

[Oreoracle]

"What remains in Harmony CANNOT perish"

Define this mysterious capitalized “Harmony” first. Knowing you, your usage isn’t even close to the dictionary’s.

"Nothing can die until it fails to try."

As I’ve said, people who always try to live have died, despite their efforts. So this is a resounding “FALSE!”

 

[Oreoracle]

However, the hope and belief that the death of the body is not the ultimate end of a living person can greatly alleviate their emotional suffering.

Yes, and then little Jimmy grows up wasting his life away because he feels he will always have that eternity in Heaven to fall back on. He doesn’t get with his high school crush because he feels something might happen between them, and he wants to avoid that “near occasion of sin.” Jimmy goes to college ignoring “hard science” fields, and instead studies mankind’s more nebulous disciplines, such as theology, which yields no worldly benefit, though Jimmy “knows” that it might help him past death. When Jim, now a fully grown man, gets married, he has little experience dealing with the fairer sex, and so things are rocky in the beginning of the relationship. No contraception is used, because this would violate the dogma Jim was taught. Many births ensue, and Jim and his wife have to perform various oddjobs just to pay their bills. Jim can’t afford to send his kids to private schools, the sort that he was sent to at a young age, and so he must send them to public schools. Without a private school to indoctrinate them, the children turn to atheism, and many arguments between the parents and children ensue. Everyone is miserable, but in keeping with doctrine, Jim can’t divorce his wife even though the two aren’t even on speaking terms.

In short, basing your life on a guess is no way to live, and you’re simply setting yourself up for disappointment by doing so. Have your parents ever talked to you about “not getting your hopes up?” Don’t expect another shot at life, and live this life under the assumption that you won’t get a second chance.

 

[James_S_Saint]

Define this mysterious capitalized “Harmony” first. Knowing you, your usage isn’t even close to the dictionary’s.

Evasion still… sigh :manvspc:

Main Entry: har·mo·ny
Pronunciation: \ˈhär-mə-nē
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural har·mo·nies
Etymology: Middle English armony, from Anglo-French armonie, from Latin harmonia, from Greek, joint, harmony, from harmos joint — more at arm
Date: 14th century

1 archaic : tuneful sound : melody
2 a : the combination of simultaneous musical notes in a chord b : the structure of music with respect to the composition and progression of chords c : the science of the structure, relation, and progression of chords
3 a : pleasing or congruent arrangement of parts b : correspondence, accord c : internal calm : tranquillity

4 a : an interweaving of different accounts into a single narrative b : a systematic arrangement of parallel literary passages (as of the Gospels) for the purpose of showing agreement or harmony

I would say that my definition fits (3) quite well. Why did you presume otherwise?

As I’ve said, people who always try to live have died, despite their efforts. So this is a resounding “FALSE!”

Yeah!! He ***finally ***answered a question (had to comment *FIRST *of course, but at least answered).

What stops someone from trying if they insist? Themselves or something else?

The statement isn’t about whether you can succeed eternally regardless of all things but the trying. The statement is one of whether you give up and fail because of yourself, or because Reality gave you no choice and thus stopped you from continuing to try. “Do not seek, and you are not likely to find.”

The statement is logically true regardless of your presumptions and fatalism. I’m guessing that logic isn’t your forte. :dts::yukonjoe:

 

[James_S_Saint]

Yes, and then little Jimmy grows up wasting his life away because he feels he will always have that eternity in Heaven to fall back on.

Boundless presumption - the very seed of sin (which, by the way, merely means to err against your intent ).

:dts:

 

[MindOverMatter]

All you’re doing is gaping in disbelief at what I claim and saying, “That can’t be true because it’s depressing!”

That is a lie. I never said it can’t be true. I said that there is nothing wrong with having hope and viewing ones existential life in a positive light.

It’s time to grow up and face the music.

Its time to grow up? Objective speaking, what does that mean?

While we can’t definitively “prove” that your consciousness is extinguished after death, all signs point to it.

How can you know that unless you experience it for yourself? An ending to a specific state of being by no means necessitates the end of existence. The truth of what happens after what we call death is unknown, and any basis for making any honest inferences about the ultimate end of man will be beyond our grasp until we know what existence ultimately is. Until then we have only our beliefs and hopes, and while something might appear more likely than the other from our perspective, this by no means removes all possibility for hope. Your argument basically amounts to the belief that because you cannot bring yourself to have hope, that therefore other people are stupid and immature for having Hope. If we were talking about surviving a war, i am sure that you would not think a man irrational for having hope in the possibility that he will live, no-matter how bleak his chances are. That you don’t have hope, is just your subjective negative resignation of hope and nothing more. We do not even know the cause or substance of consciousness and yet you are willing to resign to naturalism with out any certain knowledge. We only know the obvious, that there is a relationship between our thinking and our brain. But there is also a good logical reason to suggest that our thinking is more than the sum total of all natural reactions in the brain; since freewill cannot be free if it is purely the outworking of blind unintentional chemical reactions. The idea that we could have freewill under naturalism is completely unintelligible and makes no logical sense at all.

After you die, it looks like it’s game over…

The old looks like a duck quacks like a duck philosophy. Yet you do not allow the same leverage to intelligent design advocates. Scientist know full well that what things look like are not always the true reality of things. It seem to me that you have a desire to affirm naturalism?

If that wasn’t the case, it would be difficult to explain why we can manipulate consciousness just by using one’s brain, i.e., putting patients to sleep before surgeries. It seems that consciousness is dependent on the brain…

That doesn’t mean that the self is synonymous to the brain. It merely means that there is a relationship between the brain and the self.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

In short, basing your life on a guess is no way to live, and you’re simply setting yourself up for disappointment by doing so.

How exactly does this work? Disappointment requires consciousness. How will people who live in the hopes of heaven ever experience disappointment that they didn’t reach heaven – even if there is no heaven? Your statement seems to imply that they’ll be around after death to “notice” that they’re not in heaven. Now *that *would be a miracle!

 

[MindOverMatter]

How exactly does this work? Disappointment requires consciousness. How will people who live in the hopes of heaven ever experience disappointment that they didn’t reach heaven – even if there is no heaven? Your statement seems to imply that they’ll be around after death to “notice” that they’re not in heaven. Now *that *would be a miracle!

Ridiculousness never fails to amaze! Thanks for the back up.

Happy Christmas.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Yes, and then little Jimmy grows up wasting his life.

Isn’t that just your subjective opinion based on your desires? And if Jimmies existential happiness is based on the contemplation and hope of eternal life, then why would he be wasting his life? Subjectively speaking, it might not be what you want, but what you want is irrelevant. What jimmy needs is what matters. The fact is, existential fulfillment in heaven is qualitatively more valuable then a finite duration of fleeting pleasure in the here and now. And even if he dies and was ultimately mistaken, his life was still qualitatively better with the hope of heaven than it would have been with out it since heaven is what gave him strength to be positive in life. For jimmy, the possibility of personal fulfillment in heaven is what life is worth living for, and it is what gives him the strength to exist as a person.

 

[James_S_Saint]

Isn’t that just your subjective opinion based on your desires? And if Jimmies existential happiness is based on the contemplation and hope of eternal life, then why would he be wasting his life? Subjectively speaking, it might not be what you want, but what you want is irrelevant. What jimmy needs is what matters. The fact is, existential fulfillment in heaven is qualitatively more valuable then a finite duration of fleeting pleasure in the here and now. And even if he dies and was ultimately mistaken, his life was still qualitatively better with the hope of heaven than it would have been with out it since heaven is what gave him strength to be positive in life. For jimmy, the possibility of personal fulfillment in heaven is what life is worth living for, and it is what gives him the strength to exist as a person.