A colossal accident?

  • Thread starter Thread starter tonyrey
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I understand what you are saying. It’s not merely, however, a matter of overlooking errors. If it was a one time event, that’s forgiveable. Mistakes happen. However, the author makes the* same* mistake prior to the example I cited. Furthermore, he is not consistent in making the error, as he uses “a hypothesis” in his document as well. If this article is to be taken seriously, simple and glaring mistakes shouldn’t be in the work and the one I cited isn’t the only one. It’s scholastically sloppy to have both inconsistency and incorrect syntax in a work, especially when dealing with already an opaque subject matter and technical jargon. It undermines the confidence in work’s quality and clarity.

Nonetheless, you do raise a point regarding judging the message. I reconsider finishing the article but bear in mind grammar and spelling wasn’t the only reason the I decided not complete the reading. It was merely icing on the cake.
I’ve seen some horrendous pre-edit material which you would appreciate, given that it was written by an atheist. I was searching for a pdf version of the Philosophers without God (or some similar title, so I didn’t have to buy it), which was wishful thinking. All I got was a manuscript for the intro with corrections made by an apparently very patient proofreader, and I noticed that referencing, proper names and placement of punctuation were all frequently wrong. If I had submitted that, I would have been embarrassed, but I can forgive clear thinking if presented unrigorously.
 
I think your interpretation that even empiricists admit empiricism is dead is based on the first page of the article.
I predate that paper by a few years.
The author goes on to explain how it is not dead.
If you are giving an accurate recitation of his argument, it seems that nothing has changed.
As to intellectual punch, that comes from the validity of the arguments the article contains, which you say is independent of whether the article was peer reviewed. Anyhow, if I pointed out every rhetorical error on your part, where would I get!😉
If it has any intellectual punch based on the arguments, then why isn’t it published? Because the author knows as well as I, he not making a valid argument, he even admits empiricism is long dead.🤷
 
I’ve seen some horrendous pre-edit material which you would appreciate, given that it was written by an atheist.
The question is that is this article pre-edit material? Personally, I doubt it as it has been made readily available for public consumption. Regardless, I did not elect to reject the article solely or even largely on grammar issue. It was simply an aggravating factor. My own opinion is that the article was hastily crafted in order to meet publication requisites for professors.
 
Yes I agree with you there, I think it was quickly put together before being published online because the other members of the department publish their thoughts in progress in the same way. His was a short article, although well-referenced.

On Warpspeedpetey’s suggestion that Schwartz knew his arguments were wrong, so he didn’t publish them… What are you thinking man?! He did publish them - the whole department/his students/anyone could see the paper. What kind of moron would make faulty arguments and then think he had something to gain by spreading them quietly but publicly around, without peer review? That’s not the life of an academic, who got his PhD from Cornell!

The most logical answer is that he thought they were sound, which is why he presented them. Regardless, they are arguments that can be made by anyone, so I will stick to the topic.
 
…On Warpspeedpetey’s suggestion that Schwartz knew his arguments were wrong, so he didn’t publish them… What are you thinking man?! He did publish them - the whole department/his students/anyone could see the paper.
To publish in the academic sense means to formally submit your research for peer review. Which he did not do.
What kind of moron would make faulty arguments and then think he had something to gain by spreading them quietly but publicly around, without peer review?
The kind who does not like the historical outcome of the issue.
That’s not the life of an academic, who got his PhD from Cornell!
It certainly seems to be.
The most logical answer is that he thought they were sound,
It would be, except I would expect anyone with a PhD in the field to see the obvious problems there. I suspect that he is not formulating formal arguments inn favor of his position, but is rather appealing to his colleagues on a level more like common sense.
which is why he presented them. Regardless, they are arguments that can be made by anyone, so I will stick to the topic.
As you wish. Post #512 then?
 
Strong/weak empiricism is a false distinction in an important sense: the latter is the only option. Strong empiricism is dogmatic because it asserts more than can be demonstrated - it is upheld irrespective of evidence. As you know, this position is self-contradictory in that it says everything we know is experienced, and itself professes to be known, but it cannot be demonstrated with empirical evidence. Either we accept that dogmatic empiricism is held in faith and may be true, or we modify it so that it does not ask for more than empirical evidence can provide.

Why can’t we prove this empiricism certainly? We do have evidence for it, but only inductive evidence, which you also know is not enough for certainty. Therefore, the only possible empiricism is one which does not ask for anything more than reason to believe, because empirical evidence is capable of providing this, therefore ensuring that the proposition is not held irrespective of evidence (dogmatically). You say that this cannot be done because empiricism cannot be formulated as an empirical hypothesis. ‘Empirical’ isn’t entailed by ‘hypothesis’, and even saying it is a hypothesis achieves nothing, in your view. Firstly, what is meant by hypothesis is that the proposition is dependent upon evidence and subject to revision by it; so it is not the content of the statement but the way it is treated. We have to approach it with empirical evidence, else we fail to recognise it as a hypothesis, and it is only evidence that permits us to propose it in the first place. Empiricism is this: It seems (empirically) that there is at least one necessary condition for knowledge, and this is reliance upon experience.

Empiricism does not say “Most often experience is required for knowledge, but not always” because this is not what evidence suggests. Just like evidence does not suggest that “gravity nearly always draws mass together”. This is because all the evidence is in favour of empiricism. From that we can say provisionally that all knowledge requires experience. That is the theory or hypothesis. As you say, scientists observe all kinds of examples of phenomena, but they do not conclude finally and universally based on these observations. This is purely the problem of induction, and it means that what we hold as certainly true beliefs we should actually refer to as ‘propositions we have reason to believe in’. If you think that is not good enough and actually most knowledge is held more certainly, that is another discussion, but I disagree.

Your second problem is also interesting, but it doesn’t impact on empiricism. ‘You are using reason to assume that objects in thought are objects in reality’. However, empiricism relies solely on perception to tell us about perception. There is no necessary distinction between perception and reality; we only have our perception to access the world, our perception to live by, and our perception to inform us of the success of any hypothesis. Reason and empiricism are not separate either, many empiricists think that rationalist thought tells us a lot about how we come to think things, but does not provide us with knowledge of the world. Reasoning tells us that it is logically impossible to hold that perception is illusory, because we arrive at that conclusion from the evidence of experience. We cannot use one perception to undermine perception: self-contradictory.

From this, I hope you can see that empiricism is plausible, depending on evidence, and that it is not ‘weak’ simply because its more ambitious brother is a logical failure.
 
Strong/weak empiricism is a false distinction in an important sense: the latter is the only option.
So you admit that the proposition "experience is required for knowledge " is false?
Either we accept that dogmatic empiricism is held in faith and may be true,
You cannot hold a logical contradiction to be true by definition.
or we modify it so that it does not ask for more than empirical evidence can provide.
Then make a weak empirical statement and we will discuss it.
Why can’t we prove this empiricism certainly? We do have evidence for it, but only inductive evidence, which you also know is not enough for certainty. Therefore, the only possible empiricism is one which does not ask for anything more than reason to believe, because empirical evidence is capable of providing this, therefore ensuring that the proposition is not held irrespective of evidence (dogmatically).
As I pointed out you have no evidence for the asserted proposition. If you are discussing a hypothetical weak statement then you need to actually make the assertion for it to matter.
You say that this cannot be done because empiricism cannot be formulated as an empirical hypothesis. ‘Empirical’ isn’t entailed by ‘hypothesis’, and even saying it is a hypothesis achieves nothing, in your view. Firstly, what is meant by hypothesis is that the proposition is dependent upon evidence and subject to revision by it; so it is not the content of the statement but the way it is treated.
The statement “experience is required for knowledge” is dogmatic, see the words “is required”?
We have to approach it with empirical evidence, else we fail to recognise it as a hypothesis, and it is only evidence that permits us to propose it in the first place.
“Empirical” is not entailed in the word “hypothesis”
Empiricism is this: It seems (empirically) that there is at least one necessary condition for knowledge, and this is reliance upon experience.
*Dubito *
Empiricism does not say “Most often experience is required for knowledge, but not always” because this is not what evidence suggests.
You have no evidence to suggest anything.
Just like evidence does not suggest that “gravity nearly always draws mass together”. This is because all the evidence is in favour of empiricism. From that we can say provisionally that all knowledge requires experience. That is the theory or hypothesis.
As I have repeatedly demonstrated, you can’t. You have no evidence.
As you say, scientists observe all kinds of examples of phenomena, but they do not conclude finally and universally based on these observations. This is purely the problem of induction, and it means that what we hold as certainly true beliefs we should actually refer to as ‘propositions we have reason to believe in’. If you think that is not good enough and actually most knowledge is held more certainly, that is another discussion, but I disagree.
No, I pointed out that you cannot make the logical leap from any observation that “knowledge is required for experience”. I was not just referring to the problem of induction there. I am pointing to the non-sequitur conclusion drawn. It does not follow from “I observe that water oxidizes iron” to “Therefore knowledge requires experience”. What you think is “evidence” is not.
Your second problem is also interesting, but it doesn’t impact on empiricism. ‘You are using reason to assume that objects in thought are objects in reality’. However, empiricism relies solely on perception to tell us about perception. There is no necessary distinction between perception and reality; we only have our perception to access the world, our perception to live by, and our perception to inform us of the success of any hypothesis.
Reason and empiricism are not separate either, many empiricists think that rationalist thought tells us a lot about how we come to think things, but does not provide us with knowledge of the world. Reasoning tells us that it is logically impossible to hold that perception is illusory, because we arrive at that conclusion from the evidence of experience. We cannot use one perception to undermine perception: self-contradictory.
You are misusing and equivicating the word “perception” to mean both physical senses and rational perception. See how easy it is to refute argument’s when you don’t use standard terminology in the context of the conversation?
From this, I hope you can see that empiricism is plausible, depending on evidence, and that it is not ‘weak’ simply because its more ambitious brother is a logical failure.
You are still trying to use the strong empirical statement “experience is required for knowledge” after admitting it is a failure. “Weak empiricism” is a technical name, not an insult. You still have no evidence,you are still misusing the terminology and you both admit that the strong empirical proposition “experience is required for knowledge” is false, and then spend two paragraphs arguing for it any way. Empiricism is not only implausible, it is a logical contradiction. You have just repeated the same refuted arguments. :rolleyes:
 
Can you say precisely what the dubito assertion is, and what are its implications for epistemology? I’m not convinced it affects empiricism at all.
 
Dubito, cogito ergo sum (Dubito) is simply the act of thinking is proof of one’s mind exists. This knowledge comes from pure reason or the mind.
 
Your only legitimate objection apart from that as far as I can see was that you wanted evidence for empiricism.
  1. We gain knowledge through experience.
Scientists gain the most complicated and impressive knowledge known to man from observation and testing, therefore they show that we do gain knowledge from experience.
  1. We do not gain knowledge through reason alone, and guesswork is pretty much useless.
Maths is a system of logic that tells us nothing about what is here. Logic helps us arrange and understand statements about reality in a non-contradictory way, but logic has not been used to tell us what is here prior to experience. Maths has to be applied to empirical scenarios according to each scenario; no geometry is any use until we ascertain empirically that a certain structure meets the criteria of the geometry. Is it a Euclidean triangle or not? Can we use pi? Maths cannot tell you, only empirical measurement can. Once things have been empirically shaped up, maths can help out. Reason alone does not provide us with knowledge.

These 2 points are the evidence for empiricism. Based on this, empiricists hypothesise that experience is the only way to get knowledge.
 
Dubito, cogito ergo sum (Dubito) is simply the act of thinking is proof of one’s mind exists. This knowledge comes from pure reason or the mind.
This is still rather problematic. There are those who argue that it does not prove the mind exists to think 'I think, therefore I am". From one thought, nothing follows. Not the self, not a mind, not anything. They say a thought does not confer or necessarily reflect being.

My thoughts are not quite so extreme, but in any case, how does one go about using pure reason, based on that assertion - cogito ergo sum?

It seems like, first of all, one has to experience thought. Indeed - it is that that proves the experiencer exists: experience of oneself.
 
Maths is a system of logic that tells us nothing about what is here.
Mathematical propositions (statements) are among the most certain of facts and are enormously useful in the field of science. Mathematics are not only descriptive, they are methodological in nature. Mathematical propositions are simply methods to form factual statements. To reduce mathematics to mere logic is not fully correct. They are also rational constructs that assist in gathering knowledge beyond sense experience.
 
Can you say precisely what the dubito assertion is, and what are its implications for epistemology? I’m not convinced it affects empiricism at all.
It is the same thing I have explained many times already, it has the same epistemological implications that we have already discussed and it affects your claims concerning empiricism in the ways we have already discussed. The point being that if you were not ignoring posts and just restating long refuted positions, you would not be asking me what one of the basic concepts in our conversation means more than 500 posts in.
 
Your only legitimate objection
They are all legitimate, you have yet to refute a single one. There are 500 posts worth of them you have either failed to address or refuse to address because you do not have a refutation. We are no closer to the agreement than we were hundred of posts ago. :rolleyes:
apart from that as far as I can see was that you wanted evidence for empiricism.
Nope, I am pointing out that you don’t have any.
  1. We gain knowledge through experience.
How do you know? What evidence do you have that yoyu are actually experiencing an empirical reality at all?
  1. We do not gain knowledge through reason alone, and guesswork is pretty much useless.
Dubito
Maths is a system of logic that tells us nothing about what is here.Logic helps us arrange and understand statements about reality in a non-contradictory way, but logic has not been used to tell us what is here prior to experience.
You are assuming empiricism in that knowledge can only concern empirically observable things.
Maths has to be applied to empirical scenarios according to each scenario; no geometry is any use until we ascertain empirically that a certain structure meets the criteria of the geometry. Is it a Euclidean triangle or not? Can we use pi? Maths cannot tell you, only empirical measurement can. Once things have been empirically shaped up, maths can help out. Reason alone does not provide us with knowledge.
The fact that a triangle has three sides, along with other mathematical truths is in no way dependent on the existence of an empirical reality, plus you’re talking about verification again. We can do math on completely imaginary entities. Those entities need not have any relation to empirical reality whatsoever. Clearly, reason alone can provide us knowledge. Further, you have repeated this assertion many times and had it refuted. You still don’t get the concept of “You repeat, I repeat”
These 2 points are the evidence for empiricism.
Neither of those is evidence of empiricism. Even if they were not refuted, they still say nothing about empiricism. The leap from those conclusions to “therefore experience is required for knowledge” cannot be made.
Based on this, empiricists hypothesise that experience is the only way to get knowledge.
Maybe in 1870.
 
…It seems like, first of all, one has to experience thought. Indeed - it is that that proves the experiencer exists: experience of oneself.
The implied “I” fails to doubt to itself. (the common charge that Descartes’ assumes a premise of “I exist” that is insupportable.) Hence my use of Dubito alone.
 
The implied “I” fails to doubt to itself. (the common charge that Descartes’ assumes a premise of “I exist” that is insupportable.) Hence my use of Dubito alone.
Yes, many people think it’s proof of one’s corporeal existence. It’s really a proof of the existence one’s mind.
 
Is it a Euclidean triangle or not? Can we use pi? Maths cannot tell you, only empirical measurement can. Once things have been empirically shaped up, maths can help out. Reason alone does not provide us with knowledge.
Our minds tells us how we apply knowledge, not empirical measurement. A triangle is a logical construct. From that definition we can extract knowledge without resorting senses. Sense verification is not required to determined the truth of the of the fact the inner angles of a triangle add up to 180 degrees. The value of pi can not be empircially derivied or verified but is usefully for many applications. It was proven to be an irrational number mathematically.
 
What sense does one use to experience thought?
Probably with some sort of auditory circuits in the brain, given that most thoughts seem to be expressed in language. In any case, it is less important how thoughts are experienced, and more important to ask: Are you experiencing thought? That is a question also to Warpspeedpetey.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top