A colossal accident?

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Haven’t looked yet,…
There and has been a crisis in the fountain so mathematics for awhile now. You have the Constructive, logic, and formal schools. An excellent book on the matter is the “The Mathematical Experience” Its a bit old but it gives a good overview if you can find a copy.
 
Exactly my point. That is present-sight, not hind-sight. The transcendent sees everything in an eternal present. There is no hindsight and no foresight. Everything is present-sight.
Indeed. Unlike God we use discursive reasoning with hindsight, foresight and foresight to reach that perspective and thereby transcend time and space with our understanding of universal principles.
 
Indeed. Unlike God we use discursive reasoning with hindsight, foresight and foresight to reach that perspective and thereby transcend time and space with our understanding of universal principles.
No we do not. What did Alexander the Great do in the morning five days after his twelfth birthday? The transcendent God knows. The non-transcendent rossum does not.

rossum
 
No we do not. What did Alexander the Great do in the morning five days after his twelfth birthday? The transcendent God knows. The non-transcendent rossum does not.
Transcendence does not necessarily entail omniscience.
 
To cut to the chase, is there anything necessary which is not tautological?
Possible worlds, Propisitions, Properties, and Sets.
When you think about abstracta becoming concreta, which seems like Platonism in reverse(!), are you thinking about the universe forming, or is it like the more one thinks about abstracta, the more one understands/comes across concreta, mentally?
It’s like this:

Abstracta instantiate concreta
Some abstracta’s existence is necessary
ergo, some concreta existence is necessary

BTW- I am a form of Platonist.
 
A college kid that goes by the name Evid3nce argues otherwise and I thought he did a pretty good job of explaining it. He actually explores 2+3=5, but the concept still applies. If you’ve got the time check out a video he made on it! Time marker 6:10 - 9:12
Hi TS, thanks for the video. I watched the suggested parts, but I’m unsure what the argument is. His examples with the rocks, fingers, and other drawings just seem to represent exactly what the forumla is saying.

In effect, what I saw was akin to this:

Me: Prove this proposition: “All t-shirts are blue”

Evid3nc3: writes All t-shirts are blue in 5 different languages and shows them to me

I could be mistaken, but that seems to be the way he implements his verification style epistemology.
 
Possible worlds, Propisitions, Properties, and Sets.
lol. At least you understand that the wit of a logician is in brevity.
It’s like this:
Abstracta instantiate concreta
Some abstracta’s existence is necessary
ergo, some concreta existence is necessary
BTW- I am a form of Platonist.
I would be really interested in hearing which abstracta are necessary and why. Could you start a thread and give us your argument? Or link us to some information on it? And how do the more militant atheists react to your Platonism given the vast majority are enamored of the long dead empiricism/verification/falsification statements?
 
  1. Nothing need exist.
  2. Order needn’t exist.
  3. Complexity needn’t exist.
  4. Life needn’t exist.
  5. Consciousness needn’t exist.
  6. Intelligence needn’t exist.
  7. Self-control needn’t exist.
  8. Goodness needn’t exist.
  9. Beauty needn’t exist.
  10. Love needn’t exist.
To think everything exists for no reason is absurd…
1- If ‘Nothing need exist’, then it would be so, and no thing(s) would exist. Or you meant to say ‘Things needn’t exist’, but then how would you explain possiblility emenating from nothingness? If there were only ‘nothing’ at one time (oximoronic, I know), not even possiblility would exist, then there could be no thing(s) without the existence of their possibility. There is no possible world where nothing exists.

2- If all ‘things’ are measureable by space or time or matter or energy or any other form of demonstrable measurement then existence itself is order. If the order of this world were rearranged into any possible world, it could only change the dynamics of the measurements and only result in an altered order. In whatever possible world there is, the absolute of number cannot be denied.

3- I believe that complexity exists necessarily because of possibility. Having knowledge and experience of possiblities realized within human invention and thought, we are fully aware of the possibilities our ancestors, the first protien particles:D had.

4- If I were to swallow the conventional Koolaid of thought that says there has to be life on other planets, what with billions of galaxies out there, I would have to say yes life need exist. I believe it anyway, not that physical beings have to exist, because there are possible worlds we can concieve of where they do not, but that order has to be maintained, and not from randomness.
 
I would be really interested in hearing which abstracta are necessary and why. Could you start a thread and give us your argument? Or link us to some information on it? And how do the more militant atheists react to your Platonism given the vast majority are enamored of the long dead empiricism/verification/falsification statements?
I second that! Whether it makes me a ‘militant’ atheist, my personal reaction is “Why platonism?” because I am indeed enamored with the very much alive empiricism (upon which the claims of the New Testament rest).
 
…alive empiricism …
“A statement can only be proven true by empirical/verification/falsification means.” Is a logical contradiction because the act of holding it true makes it false. Therefore it is necessarily false…It been a dead idea for more than 50 years now.
 
I think evidence is better than faith. There are so many things that can be done with evidence that it is most definitely ‘alive’
 
What happened 50 years ago?
In the 1920’s up to the 50’s there was the Logical Empiricism movement. It presumes an empirical proposition is true or meaningful, if it can be empirically verifiable (sound familiar?). In addition, it handles empirically verifiable propositions as uncertain and probable. The issue with this philosophical approach is that it does not consign itself to a metaphysical position and tenets are difficult to formulate. It became an exceptionally disappointing theory of knowledge and is now largely consigned to the trash bin of philosophy.
 
His examples with the rocks, fingers, and other drawings just seem to represent exactly what the forumla is saying.
Yes, they do. There is a mapping between the mathematics and physical actions. He described the physical actions that some one could do with words. This allows us to confirm that 2+2=4 through experimentation.

Adults have presumably gone through years of education and with little effort recognize a mapping between a math problem and a set of actions. We also learn how to map sentences to math equations through word problems. By the time some one has finished high school they have enough experience with equations of this type to be able to do them with little effort.

To make more sense of this if you have a young child or relative that has just started with their education in school. If that child has already learned numbers and counting and is starting to learn math then the child may be able to demonstrate this for you. I have a young relative that is learning math and as an aid he is given a collection of objects (usually coins) that he can use to test whether or not his math is right.

When he writes down an answer to a question like 6 + 7 then he count perform a task similar to what evid3nce to experiment and see whether or not his result is correct. When I was in elementary school when we started with multiplication we did similar operations. How did we know what 3 * 4 was? We would draw 3 coliniar series of 4 dots and then count them.
In effect, what I saw was akin to this:

Me: Prove this proposition: “All t-shirts are blue”

Evid3nc3: writes All t-shirts are blue in 5 different languages and shows them to me

I could be mistaken, but that seems to be the way he implements his verification style epistemology.
I think he labeled it as “evidential rationalism”. But that example is different entirely. (I’m going to look past the fact that you could evaluate such a proposition as false by producing a non-blue shirt). In your example you are providing 5 different equivalent expressions. It would be like writing “2 + 3 = 5”, “3 + 2 = 5”, “5 = 2 + 3”, “5 = 3+2” Those all evaluate to the same thing, but are different expressions, but that isn’t an experiment. I pulled a few definitions of experiment from a few sources. Some relevant definitions:

The process of testing (Merriam Websters, def 3)
An operation employed to resolve an uncertainty(Answers.com)

If I count out two objects and set them aside, and then count out two more objects and set them aside, and then count out all the objects that I have set aside and they add up to 4 then I have done an experiment, or a test, demonstrating that 2+2 is 4.

There are some unspoken assumptions I’ve made in writing this that I will summarize by saying that I’m assuming we are talking about the type of math that is usually taught to children. I can formally define the rules of such mathematics in terms of set theory and cardinalities, defining integers, the base 10 number system, and so on. But I’m trying to keep the discussion in grasp of the general public and avoid concepts that may be esoteric when ever possible. (it may sound unnecessary to qualify this but I’ve been in discussion where some one will throw out something like “what if we are not using a base 10 number system!”).

As you move into more abstract forms of mathematics that are further removed from having relationships to reality then you may start to approach a point where physical experiments may not be an appropriate form of verification. But 2+2=4 is something that is in the realm of being confirmable through an experiment.
 
I think evidence is better than faith.
I don’t know anyone who has faith without evidence, so its a bit of a false dichotomy there.
There are so many things that can be done with evidence that it is most definitely ‘alive’
The utility of “evidence” isn’t at question. The idea that things can only be true if they are empirical/verifiable/falsifiable is, and as a logical contradiction it is clearly false. Statements are not meaningful or true on that basis and any one who says different reveals that their cherished beliefs are not justified by reason or evidence. In other words they just have a non-evidenced religion of their own. The four horsemen amount to the high priests of their very own little religion. In other words, the new atheism is completely destroyed by the exhibition of this contradiction. A fact our friend, JonPHeretic, probably knows and hence has developed a Platonism that skirts the issue. Of course admitting abstracta is dangerous in its own right, but I will tackle that when he presents the argument.

You may be tempted to find a reason to accept a logical contradiction as true, no matter how impossible that is. Almost every atheist confronted with this bare fact of logic does. However, accepting a logical contradiction as true is the definition of irrationality. The truth is more important than our cherished beliefs, that is the mantra that new atheism lives by right?
 
But it does entail the ability to observe any event in the past. I cannot do that.
It entails the ability to take the past, present and future into account. The success of science is proof that our power of reason enables us to surpass and control physical objects in a way that is impossible for any other physical object.
 
Warpspeedpetey,

We agree that Christianity rests on empiricism then? Or at least on evidence.

I do not hold that only what is evidenced can be true, but that only statements about truth which have evidence for them ought to be taken seriously. These have the best track record.

Still don’t get how what happened 50 years ago changes this…😛
 
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