A compelling non-Catholic argument

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My friend, you still have yet to have read the reference in the Catechism I gave you before on Authority or you haven’t absorbed it yet as you still speak w/ some inaccuracies. For example, teaching authority really rests in the College of Bishops (ala Apostles) with the Pope (Peter) at the head.

I also discussed the end of Mathew about Christ being with us until the end of time. We take that literally and more than just in Spirit. You don’t have to agree but it would be helpful if your comments gave an indication that you had an accurate understanding of what we teach.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not trying to admonish you. I just want you to have an accurate understanding of what we teach and the Catechism is a good source. Then at least we will be arguing with us both being in the same field.
Have read, and am desperately trying to understand. It is difficult to fully understand a belief that differs fom the one that I have. It constantly tries to conflict. I know that this is the work of my sinfull nature. So I beg that you bear with me in my ignorance.
 
Jesus left but sent the Holy Spirit to act in his place. The Holy Spirit is still among us.
The Holy Spirit acts through the Church in a corporate manner. He doesn’t give special revelations to private individuals regarding matters of doctrine and morality. First of all, this would be extremely inefficient, since there is only one Truth. Secondly, not everyone who thinks he is hearing the Holy Spirit actually is. We can easily be deceived.

In fact, I was saddened to read just last week about a group of women who believe themselves to be led by the Holy Spirit to help people have “natural abortions.” And because they deny the existence of any human authority in the Church, they are impervious to any kind of human correction, since, of course, the Holy Spirit is above human beings in authority.

What they don’t, and can’t possibly ever, “get” is that they are not hearing the Holy Spirit; they are hearing something else, instead - but this possibility does not occur to them, because they read in the Bible that Jesus gave authority to “you” (meaning the Apostles) and assume that this is referring to themselves, personally.
P.S. I have posted a new thread concerning Testimonies, and would be honored to hear yours.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3371693#post3371693
You can link to my testimony from the link in my signature. 🙂
 
Protestantman,

I believe that there is clear evidence in Scripture that Jesus gave authority to his Apostles.

Matt 16:17-19
Matt 18:18
John 20:22-23

Act 1:15-26 Peter leads the Apostles in picking a successor to Judas.

Act 15 Peter leads and gives the final decision on doctrine using no Scripture as reference.

1 Tim 3:1-13 Paul is instructing Timothy on how to select individuals to the office of Bishop and Deacon.

2 Tim 2:1-2 Paul prepares Timothy to replace him.

God Bless
 
Have read, and am desperately trying to understand. It is difficult to fully understand a belief that differs fom the one that I have. It constantly tries to conflict. I know that this is the work of my sinfull nature. So I beg that you bear with me in my ignorance.
Feel free to start a thread w/ questions. Or you can send me a personal message w/ a question.

Maybe as a introductory, this might help you put some of our references in context.

My brother is in law enforcement. He always talks about how different people will always see the same event differently with different things more prominently. So it is with the difference in how Catholics and non-Catholics see the Life of Christ.

While most of us see Christ’s life with three principle components (Passion, Death & Resurrection; public ministry, and birth), we have different perspectives.
  1. Passion, Death & Resurrection: Catholics see the entire period in one integrated whole beginning with the institution of the Priesthood and Mass, Passion & Death as atonement for our sins, descent into the Dead to free those souls, and Resurrection to show power over death. Non-Catholics generally see greater significance in a particular component. Some focus on the Resurrection, others on the Passion and Death, and few on the events in the upper Supper Room except as part of His teaching ministry.
  2. Birth: This doesn’t make #2 on most non-Catholics list but is a very close second for Catholics. Books have been written on this but I’ll try to give a short explanation. The reality that God chose to assume our nature says alot about humanity. That it is a good nature and not a corrupt nature for nothing of God can be corrupt. That our bodies are not just useful vessels but sacred in and of themselves. And that the combination of fully man and fully God is eternal.
Most importantly, when Christ says “He” is with us until the end of the time in Mathew at His Assumption, it is not just His spirit but His entire nature (Body, Soul & Divinity). This in turn affects how we see Christ in the Eucharist, Church, Priests/Bishops/Pope and in the faithful. And it impacted why we will have religious convents like Mother Theresa’s to just solely tend to the physical needs of the people. They are like the Holy Women who cared for Christ’s body when He came down from the cross. In effect, this is caring for the poor is a great form of worship of Jesus and we believe that worship is a greater call than evangelization or at least a prerequisite.

Because many (not all) of our non-Catholic breathren don’t put this emphasis on the Incarnation, they are willing to accept Jesus is here spiritually or that missionary work is most focused on evangelization with physical care a lesser component. I don’t say that to be critical as Catholics too have such missionary work. And I don’t mean to say that you don’t have reverence for the Incarnation. Its just that we hold it in a extremely high regard and nearly as significant as what occurred during Easter.
  1. Teaching Ministry: For most non-Catholic Christians, this would be #2 on the list. And don’t get me wrong. We value this greatly. We just see it more as a prerequisite for us to understand and implement what He did at the end (establish the Mass and Priesthood) and His Passion, Death & Resurrection.
  2. This doesn’t even get into the difference of how we see the Holy Spirit’s activities, most signficantly the establishment of the Church at Pentecost.
If you read what we say thru this prism, I think it will help.

Fellow Catholics, do you have something to add or do you have disagreement. I don’t profess to be infallible or to speak for you or the Church. This is just my perspective and understanding.
 
Fellow Catholics, do you have something to add or do you have disagreement.
I think this is pretty dead on. In fact this priority-ordered and categorical approach to scripture you just summarized just helped me pick up something a little deeper than what I previously held. Namely, the sacredness of the arc/body that carries the human soul. We definitely have a different forward looking reverence for the body than Protestants do. Thanks by the way - it helps me deal with some troubling issues that have been in the back of my mind lately over the loss of a friend.

This is just another example of how we get to much different views on scripture than Protestants do by relying on traditional aspects and insights of the early church to form a locus of perspective. There are just too many facets in scripture to go try and tackle it without some kind of contextual road map to get us started. I think tradition gets us centered and “out of the weeds” of endless exegesis on things that may be interesting but are not core concepts.

In this area of the human body for example I think some Protestants are doctrinally predisposed to think of the human body as a worthless and empty shell that is “evil flesh”. This doctrinal predisposition naturally discourages the study of scripture along these lines. This is just another example of how a literal read of scripture while necessary is not sufficient to arrive at the same insights that Catholics have.

I think Catholics take an approach that benefits by extracting information present or inferred in the very structure of scripture itself as a holistic and indivisible “word of God”. We focus more on broad concepts verses individual sentences and words. We prefer a macro view verses a micro view. For example from a macro conceptual view we see that God in fact elected to Incarnate the living word, His most Holy Divine Son into the fleshy arc of Jesus’ human body (we see Noah’s Arc imagery as well as The Covenant Arc here). Jesus’ human body was itself held for 40 weeks in gestation within another blessed arc of human flesh (Mary - called blessed among women). We intuit the importance in the “concept of vessel” and simply can’t miss the connection to the Covenant Arc which holds God’s Commandments - The Word of God (that concept strings us along to successive discoveries). So we soon discover that when God says “I shall save you” He means ALL of ME (my body and mind and soul as an intact being). Then we see that the body is in fact glorified and made perfect on the last day at the time of 2nd Judgment. These are truths that exist in every bible yet they are often contextually missed or not held as a complete concept since they are not always spelled out literally or are overlooked and not studied since those are “Catholic beliefs”.

So the observation I want to add is that there is generally speaking a huge difference in how Protestants and Catholics focus on studying scripture. We can admire how Protestants really get in and look at a micro level to study specific verses of scripture in minute detail. But I almost get the impression many Protestants construct study vignettes around the things that *differentiate *themselves from Catholics rather than going in from a context of traditional emphasis (since they see tradition as “too Catholic” and therefore evil) or even from scientific objective ideal to discover truth. So it seems that many Protestants try to use scripture to reinforce their own convictions for why they separated from Catholics in the first place rather than to understand it objectively. It would be more fruitful I think if they put that all aside and instead tried to construct study cases around holistic and broad concepts. Catholics I think tend to take a breadth approach to get the big macro perspective of what is going on from Old to New Testament and then dig down vertically to focus in on deeper micro level views as they evolve their faith and gain an appetite for greater spiritual dimension.We don’t get distracted thinking we have to prove our faith all the time and others as wrong.

So I tend to think that Protestants tend to dice up scripture into very fine granules and actually over-study in the micro view. I really think this approach causes them to lose a lot of context and a huge amount of information that is present in the structure itself of scripture at a macro and holistic view. In other words I think that many Protestant’s inject “artifacts” or “accidentals” by over sampling at a fine level and lose the framework of structure to give it all proper semantic context. It’s almost as if Protestant’s are searching for “magic formulas” of truth that are easy to remember rather than searching for a holistic truth present in the “bible story”; a story that has amazing reciprocity, progression and revelation with repeating themes from cover to cover.

Don’t mean to over generalize here - but its just what I have observed.

James
 
Does anyone know of forums such as these that are almost exclusively Protestant? Would be interesting to see more of their thoughts.
 
To answer Jmcrae

I beleive that the authority Christ gave the Apostles, was to teach. Christ commanded them to feed his sheep. The Bible also commandes me to live by the Spirit. It tells me that my body, is a Temple. I know that the Spirit of God is in me (Romans 8) and that he does teach me doctrine and morality. 1 corintheans 2: 6-16, especially verse 15
“The spiritual man makes judgements about ALL things.”

The bible also teaches that if I am living in the spirit, If I ask for anything in Gods name, it will be given unto me. Does this exclude doctrine or morality? I can do ALL things through Christ who gives me streangth. Ask and it will be given, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened. In none of the scriptures does it ever say there are limitations to what the Spirit will reveal to me. If that were the case, what value does the Holy Bible hold for me? Should I not discard it in exchange for the teaching of the Pope? Absolutely not
Paul commanded us to search the scriptures so that the spirit would discern that his teaching was of the spirit.

How would this be ineficient? If the Spirit reveals truth to me in 1 way and to you in another, Is it still true? Does not Romans 14 show that some men will be convicted to understand truth differently, based on their faith? Isnt this why Christ spoke in Parables? To teach a Farmer, you must explain it differently then if you are teaching a Fisherman. This method of teaching is so efficient that even Peter said,“To win the Jews I became like a Jew.”
Is it inefficient or individual?

You are absolutely right in regards to your second point. Especially today, many use that to feign authority. Others, who are not capable of discerning spiritual matters, are easily mislead by Satan. Most common it is found in the Religions that do not seek Christ, but false Gods and Prophets. This was addressed many times in the New Testament. The Bible warns us to be carefull of these things. When you say these people read the Bible, was it not Satan who quoted scripture to tempt Christ? Satan twists the truth so that the weak are led away from Christ.
 
So, if we take your interpretation of scripture (which is not without merit), from the eyes of a Catholic we can also believe something similar. May we assume that God hardened Luther’s heart or turned him over to his rebellious proclivity to force the Church to correct some abuses; while at the same time He pruned away those who were not loyal to the Church’s authority?

James
This is absoulutely true. I agree 100%. We will know for sure when Christ returns, right?

About the qoutes, I do apologize and will work on correcting that. Still kinda figuring everything out here. In the past I have only viewed forums, so I am a newbie:o
 
Protestantman,

I believe that there is clear evidence in Scripture that Jesus gave authority to his Apostles.

Matt 16:17-19
Matt 18:18
John 20:22-23

Act 1:15-26 Peter leads the Apostles in picking a successor to Judas.

Act 15 Peter leads and gives the final decision on doctrine using no Scripture as reference.

1 Tim 3:1-13 Paul is instructing Timothy on how to select individuals to the office of Bishop and Deacon.

2 Tim 2:1-2 Paul prepares Timothy to replace him.

God Bless
I am not contesting that at all. He definately gave the Apostles authority to teach.
 
Originally Posted by CentralFLJames:
So, if we take your interpretation of scripture (which is not without merit), from the eyes of a Catholic we can also believe something similar. May we assume that God hardened Luther’s heart or turned him over to his rebellious proclivity to force the Church to correct some abuses; while at the same time He pruned away those who were not loyal to the Church’s authority?

James
This is absolutely true. I agree 100%. We will know for sure when Christ returns, right?
I agree with this too.

I have always felt bad for the Protestants who were pruned away from The Church just because of Luther. It does not seem fair that so many could be led astray by one man. But of course I suppose your perspective is much different and you don’t see that the Protestants as the a pruned away branch at all but rather the thinned out tree. Right? 😉

James
 
A little explanation of my belief here, so that you understand where it might differ from yours. In Matthew 16, I believe that Christ was telling Peter, that the church would be built on his teaching. When Peter said “you are Christ, the son of God.” Jesus acknowledged that Peter had just adressed the single most important aspect of the New Covenant. It was on this truth that Christ sent the Apostles to teach. Up to this point, Peter was the kind of person who was constantly putting his foot in his mouth. Like when he told Christ not to wash his feet, then to wash his whole body. He was also the quickest of the apostles to answer Christ or act, evident with being the first to walk on water and strike at Jesus’s captors. His behavior was rash and he often misspoke. I believe that when Christ said,"you are now called Peter (the rock or also translated to mean head) he was also adressing that Peter had become wiser in the use of his words(because his words were from God). Notice he was still the first Apostle to answer Christ. Peters boldness was now accompanied with great wisdom.
I do not believe that he was made greater than the other Apostles. I believe that If a minister or priest(whether catholic or Protesant) preaches the Gospel as written by the Apostles, that his teaching comes from the same authority. I do not believe that Christ intends for us to argue whether we are Catholic or Baptist or Lutheran, but to instead acknowledge each other as brothers in Christ. I have seen the Holy Spirit at work in many denominations. In reference to the reformation, I believe that it was Gods will. (NOT SAYING THAT IT WAS RIGHT as it is possible that Luthers actions were from a hardened heart.) I bellieve that the reformation servse an important purpouse. I think that the different denominations are important because they can reach different people through their varying beliefs. I think that as long as a church preaches based on the teaching of the apostles, then the other things are merely based on differing levels of faith, and equally holy and glorifying to God (Romans 14). Peter also adressed this when he spoke of becoming like a Jew to win the Jews.
 
This all said, I do not understand why the denominations are so bitter toward each other and sometimes like bitter enemies. I believe that body of Christ should be fully united. And I dont believe that the Catholics have to give up sola scriptura or Papal infallabity. Nor would the pentacostals have to accept it.
I think of it in the way that Christ calls us a body. My hands dont have toes and my feet dont have fingers, yet they are both equally a part of my body. I beleive that our inability to be unified is the biggest reason that Hindu and other religions are growing faster. Thus one of the reasons I post here.
It seems to me(Please correct me if Im wrong) that when I attend a mass, that the Catholic church does not fully accept me unless I am a member of the Catholic Church. Often when I take communion with them(being not a member of that church) I have been told that it is inappropriate. It would This does not seem to be biblical to me.

~There are two mountains of faith, one protestant, and the other Catholic. God wants us to pull them together. So if you look in the middle, thats where youll find me with veins popping out of my neck.~
 
This all said, I do not understand why the denominations are so bitter toward each other and sometimes like bitter enemies. I believe that body of Christ should be fully united. And I dont believe that the Catholics have to give up sola scriptura or Papal infallabity. Nor would the pentacostals have to accept it.
*Sola scriptura *is a Protestant doctrine isn’t it?
 
This all said, I do not understand why the denominations are so bitter toward each other and sometimes like bitter enemies. I believe that body of Christ should be fully united. And I dont believe that the Catholics have to give up sola scriptura or Papal infallabity. Nor would the pentacostals have to accept it.
I think of it in the way that Christ calls us a body. My hands dont have toes and my feet dont have fingers, yet they are both equally a part of my body. I beleive that our inability to be unified is the biggest reason that Hindu and other religions are growing faster. Thus one of the reasons I post here.
It seems to me(Please correct me if Im wrong) that when I attend a mass, that the Catholic church does not fully accept me unless I am a member of the Catholic Church. Often when I take communion with them(being not a member of that church) I have been told that it is inappropriate. It would This does not seem to be biblical to me.

~There are two mountains of faith, one protestant, and the other Catholic. God wants us to pull them together. So if you look in the middle, thats where youll find me with veins popping out of my neck.~
Protestantman, it is highly inappropriate for you to be receiving the Eucharist if you are not fully united with the Catholic church. Would you be able to vote in another country just by visiting there? No, of course not. You are not in union with the Catholic church, you haven’t received the Sacrament of Holy Communiion, and you have no business reaching Communion in our churches. If you truly want to be united with the Catholics, then go through the procedures to do so. Otherwise, we welcome you at our Masses, but not to receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord into your body. It’s very Biblical not to. Read 1 Corinthians 11:27.
 
I believe that Christ was telling Peter, that the church would be built on his teaching. When Peter said "you are Christ, the son of God." Jesus acknowledged that Peter had just adressed the single most important aspect of the New Covenant. It seems to me(Please correct me if Im wrong) that when I attend a mass, that the Catholic church does not fully accept me unless I am a member of the Catholic Church. Often when I take communion with them(being not a member of that church) I have been told that it is inappropriate. It would This does not seem to be biblical to me.
Thanks Protestantman, I appreciate your perspective and there are some truths we can find common ground on. For clarification, the Catholic Church does not hold Peter as “greater” than the other Apostles since as Christ spoke ‘let the greatest among you be the least [by serving]’. God may judge Peter greater by his service but we have no insight or reason to believe even God makes that distinction since all of God’s disciples save John (who was cruelly tortured and imprisoned) died martyrs. And we know "greater Love has no man than to give up his life for a friend (ref: ‘I no longer call you slaves but friends’). So we Catholics treat each others as equal in God’s eyes and Satan certainly makes no distinction either since we are all tempted and sin. But we do see Peter as having a unique authoritative role as final spokesperson for Jesus (as His Vicar) on matter’s of unity of teaching and common faith. Peter’s Chair is similar to The Chair of Moses in this regard - the difference being where the Jews yielded the priestly line to Judges and Kings The Church held firm on the Rock of Peter to keep all authority within the priestly lineage of Melchizedek (which is superior and senior to Aaron’s Levitical order).

On the matter of receiving Eucharist I beg you not to do this and to pray about this since it it considered a very grave sin (a sacrilege) that can cause you spiritual and physical illness/death if you take it unworthily (in grave sin). Since you are not in communion with The Catholic Church this means you do not believe that The Eucharist is the real presence of Jesus (divinity, soul, body and blood) that was manifest through the priestly authority of The Church. Only a true believer may partake of Eucharist and then only when in a state of grace clear of any grave sin.

God Bless,
James
 
To answer Jmcrae

I beleive that the authority Christ gave the Apostles, was to teach. Christ commanded them to feed his sheep.
Absolutely. But how does one teach, without the authority to discipline?
The Bible also commandes me to live by the Spirit. It tells me that my body, is a Temple.
Of course. But “by the Spirit” does not imply that you are doing it alone, or that it happens in a mysterious, unseen way.

I am teaching a Confirmation class over the next few weeks, and one of the things I am teaching the children is how to recognize the action of the Holy Spirit in the Sacraments of the Church. They understood perfectly when I told them this morning that the Holy Spirit will give them seven special gifts when the Bishop anoints them. They also understand that this anointing will be something like the anointing that David received from Samuel. (We were reading I Samuel 16:1-13 in our Bibles this morning, because it was one of the readings at Mass. We especially liked verse 13. 🙂 )
I know that the Spirit of God is in me (Romans 8) and that he does teach me doctrine and morality. 1 corintheans 2: 6-16, especially verse 15
“The spiritual man makes judgements about ALL things.”
The bible also teaches that if I am living in the spirit, If I ask for anything in Gods name, it will be given unto me. Does this exclude doctrine or morality? I can do ALL things through Christ who gives me streangth. Ask and it will be given, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened. In none of the scriptures does it ever say there are limitations to what the Spirit will reveal to me. If that were the case, what value does the Holy Bible hold for me? Should I not discard it in exchange for the teaching of the Pope? Absolutely not
Nor would anybody ever ask you to. There is no conflict between the Pope and the Holy Spirit - they are not competitors. The Holy Spirit actually makes use of the Pope as a kind of a “microphone” for His message, from time to time.
Paul commanded us to search the scriptures so that the spirit would discern that his teaching was of the spirit.
St. Paul was commanding St. Timothy to do this, directly after ordaining him to the Episcopate. (If Timothy is the Bishop, then he can’t exactly ask the Bishop what it means, can he? 😉 )
How would this be ineficient? If the Spirit reveals truth to me in 1 way and to you in another, Is it still true? Does not Romans 14 show that some men will be convicted to understand truth differently, based on their faith? Isnt this why Christ spoke in Parables? To teach a Farmer, you must explain it differently then if you are teaching a Fisherman. This method of teaching is so efficient that even Peter said,“To win the Jews I became like a Jew.”
Is it inefficient or individual?
The Church is the instrument most often used by the Holy Spirit to teach with. And you’re right, the Church teaches Africans using different methods than for Americans, and teaches children with different methods than for adults, etc.
You are absolutely right in regards to your second point. Especially today, many use that to feign authority. Others, who are not capable of discerning spiritual matters, are easily mislead by Satan. Most common it is found in the Religions that do not seek Christ, but false Gods and Prophets. This was addressed many times in the New Testament. The Bible warns us to be carefull of these things. When you say these people read the Bible, was it not Satan who quoted scripture to tempt Christ? Satan twists the truth so that the weak are led away from Christ.
🙂
 
It seems to me(Please correct me if Im wrong) that when I attend a mass, that the Catholic church does not fully accept me unless I am a member of the Catholic Church. Often when I take communion with them(being not a member of that church) I have been told that it is inappropriate. This does not seem to be biblical to me.
The Sacrament of Holy Communion is the third Sacrament of Initiation into the Catholic Church, for adults. Prior to an adult receiving First Holy Communion, he first needs to be Baptised, or to have his baptism recognized by the Catholic Church (which is normally done by means of a Profession of Faith and a transfer of paperwork from the Protestant church where the baptism took place to the Catholic Church where the person is making his Profession of Faith), and he also needs to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation.

It is entirely Biblical, since the Apostles did not distribute Holy Communion to anyone except those who had been baptized and confirmed in Christian churches that were doctrinally and organizationally united with themselves.
 
Protestantman, it is highly inappropriate for you to be receiving the Eucharist if you are not fully united with the Catholic church. Would you be able to vote in another country just by visiting there? No, of course not. You are not in union with the Catholic church, you haven’t received the Sacrament of Holy Communiion, and you have no business reaching Communion in our churches. If you truly want to be united with the Catholics, then go through the procedures to do so. Otherwise, we welcome you at our Masses, but not to receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord into your body. It’s very Biblical not to. Read 1 Corinthians 11:27.
So your saying that because Im not Catholic, that I am unworthy? Carefull when you make these kinds of claims. What yu are implying is neither biblical, nor does it hold any weight. When does the bible say that only catholics are worthy? If Christ lives in me, my worth is well spoken for.
 
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