A compelling non-Catholic argument

[protestantman]

The Apostles were not yet under the New Covenant; the New Covenant came into effect at Pentecost.

There was also a transition period - those who converted before Christ’s death and resurrection were joined to the Church through the baptism of John the Baptist (see John 1:19-42) and by being in Christ’s presence throughout His 3-year ministry, and those who joined afterwards were brought into the Church through Christian baptism - immersion in water, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, as Christ commanded in Matthew 28:16–20.

I disagree. This would mean that the thief on the cross was not under the New Covenant. He was neither under the old covenant. So how is it that he was saved? If you say that God made an acception, you are saying that the covenants are incomplete. IT IS BY FAITH ALONE THAT WE ARE SAVED,(Romans 3:21 and following) this leaves no room for exceptions. The New covenant came into effect the minute Christ died. Christ’s blood is the sign of the new covenant. Where does scripture say that Pentacost was the sign?

 

[mlchance]

…(Romans 3:21 and following)…

Romans 3:21 and following does not say we are saved by faith alone. In fact, there is nowhere in the Bible that says we are saved by faith alone.
Romans 3:21 and Following

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

We are saved by grace, not by faith alone. Faith alone means faith without works, and faith without works is dead.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[jmcrae]

I disagree. This would mean that the thief on the cross was not under the New Covenant.

He wasn’t. He was saved without baptism. (Nobody in the Old Testament was ever saved without Christ, or without faith.)

IT IS BY FAITH ALONE THAT WE ARE SAVED,(Romans 3:21 and following)

This is not the correct translation of that verse; it was Martin Luther (the first Protestant) who added the word “alone” to that verse in Protestant Bibles. The original translation into English from the Latin Vulgate says,

“But now the justice of God has been made manifest independently of the Law, being attested by the Law and the Prophets; the justice of God through faith in Jesus Christ upon all who believe.”

Faith is necessary - indeed, it is foundational since nothing else can exist without faith - but it is not alone. St. James tells us (James 2:24), “You see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

 

[protestantman]

True, the Church should not place itself above Christ. And thank Christ it won’t because the Church is headed by Christ Himself. He protects it from error via the Holy Spirit. If the Church ceases to teach what Christ’s wants it to…then Christ broke His promise that the “Gates of Hell shall not prevail…” But I am inclined to believe that Christ can keep his Word.

No. this is not true. Notice it says “The gates of Hell.”
It does not say sin or corruption. Also, it says “…will not prevail” The church can fall into error and still prevail. Why did Christ use the word “prevail” in this promise?
pre·vail (pr-vl)
intr.v. pre·vailed, pre·vail·ing, pre·vails

1. To be greater in strength or influence; triumph: prevailed against the enemy.
2. To be or become effective; win out: hoped justice would prevail.
3. To be most common or frequent; be predominant: a region where snow and ice prevail.
4. To be in force, use, or effect; be current: an ancient tradition that still prevails.
5. To use persuasion or inducement successfully. Often used with on, upon, or with.

In Baseball, if you let the other team score points, can you still prevail? God’s was promising that the church would Ultimately overcome the gates of hell. He made no promise that the journey would be without error.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I disagree. This would mean that the thief on the cross was not under the New Covenant. He was neither under the old covenant. So how is it that he was saved? If you say that God made an acception, you are saying that the covenants are incomplete. IT IS BY FAITH ALONE THAT WE ARE SAVED,(Romans 3:21 and following) this leaves no room for exceptions. The New covenant came into effect the minute Christ died. Christ’s blood is the sign of the new covenant. Where does scripture say that Pentacost was the sign?

Yet, scripture does not tell us DIRECTLY if the good thief died before Jesus or after Jesus - although it could be inferred. Would you go so far as to say Mary was under the Old Covenant simply because the Incarnation occurred under the Old Covenant? It seems to me that something important happened when Mary first consented and said “Let it be done to me according to thy WORD”. The Good Thief was saved by what the Church now calls The Baptism Of Desire.

Pardon me for saying but you are starting to sound a little like a pharisee all hung up on legal interpretation. I think Jesus can save whoever He wants to independent of any covenant rules just as He can cure the blind man on the sabbath.

James

 

[protestantman]

Romans 3:21 and following does not say we are saved by faith alone. In fact, there is nowhere in the Bible that says we are saved by faith alone.

We are saved by grace, not by faith alone. Faith alone means faith without works, and faith without works is dead.

– Mark L. Chance.

Ephesians 2:8
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves

Galations 3:1-5
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Are not works a result of faith? Even Abrahams works were credited as faith.

6Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”** 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.**

 

[mlchance]

Ephesians 2:8

Galations 3:1-5

Delightful reading. I agree with every word of it.

But did you notice how not a bit of it said we are saved by “faith alone”? In fact, the only place in the New Testament the words “faith alone” appear next to each other is in the Epistle of James, where we are told that “faith alone” is not enough.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[protestantman]

Faith is necessary - indeed, it is foundational since nothing else can exist without faith - but it is not alone. St. James tells us (James 2:24), “You see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

James was writing that if faith is alive, that it produces works. Did Christ not say that If we have faith that we will bear the fruits of the Spirit. This scripture is telling us that faith and works go hand in hand. Simply put, If I am saved by faith, then my works will bear witness that my faith is alive. Adversily, if I say that I have faith, but have not works, then I am a liar.

This does not mean that my salvation has anything to do with works. Works are merely a testimony of my faith.

 

[mlchance]

This does not mean that my salvation has anything to do with works. Works are merely a testimony of my faith.

Point accepted. But notice there’s still nowhere in Scripture that claims salvation is by “faith alone” (contra your earlier claim and misquotation of Romans 3:21).

That ought to be at least pause for thought.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Delightful reading. I agree with every word of it.

But did you notice how not a bit of it said we are saved by “faith alone”? In fact, the only place in the New Testament the words “faith alone” appear next to each other is in the Epistle of James, where we are told that “faith alone” is not enough.

– Mark L. Chance.

I agree. My KJV Bible reference says the same thing:

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY.

Is there a new teaching tradition in some of the Protestant sects that are ignoring this part of sola scriptura? I thought if one believed in scripture they had to believe in ALL of scripture and could not assault one rampart of truth with another part of truth to divide truth against itself. What is with this Protestant teaching - anyone??

James

 

[protestantman]

I think Jesus can save whoever He wants to independent of any covenant rules just as He can cure the blind man on the sabbath.

James

Jesus was not in violation of the Old Covenant when he healed the blind man on the Sabbath. This is the point he argued with the Pharisees. The Pharisees had twisted the words of the old covenant. Remember, it was the Pharisees who were in violation of the covenant, Not Christ. To say that Christ can save a man outside of the covenant is impossible. Christ’s actions never violate his covenants. The New Covenant says that we must have faith in Christ in order to be saved.

 

[protestantman]

Point accepted. But notice there’s still nowhere in Scripture that claims salvation is by “faith alone” (contra your earlier claim and misquotation of Romans 3:21).

That ought to be at least pause for thought.

– Mark L. Chance.

Lets provide a simple analogy for this.
Faith is like a tree. If the tree is alive, then it will produce good fruit. Likewise if a tree does not produce fruit, then it is obviously dead.
Does the fruit make the tree alive? Does the absence of fruit cause the tree to die?
Therefore, if I have faith, then I will have works also. So what is the problem of saying that we are saved by faith alone.

Another analogy:
In School you pass or fail depending only on your final grades.
Not by my attendance. But I can say that if I do not attend class, I will fail.

 

[protestantman]

Thus, I believe that faith alone is the determining factor. Yet how can I say that I have Faith without works? The answer to that is, I cannot. Can we agree on this?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Thus, I believe that faith alone is the determining factor. Yet how can I say that I have Faith without works? The answer to that is, I cannot. Can we agree on this?

No, because you admit that faith and works are inseparable yet you only choose to focus on faith. Why is that? Is it because it happens to be a key Protestant teaching that tries to ignore the inseparable nature through a fundamentalist lens? This is an INCOMPLETE teaching. It’s like saying when we die we go to heaven and not mentioning that some go to hell. It’s like inventing a new teaching not for the benefit of the student but rather to differentiate one school from another. It’s like applying the sword of Solomon on the baby to split the baby in half as a matter of compromise justice just to avoid admitting someone is wrong.

Sorry - truth can’t be divided against itself nor left incomplete and ambiguous.

Protestant touchstones of teaching tradition and doctrine constantly compete with each other in a contradictory way. This is not the fruit of the Holy Spirit this is the wild fruit born of rebellion.

Sola Scriptura (by scripture alone) as deficient as it is, is sufficient to utterly defeat Sola Fide (by faith alone) in the follow scriptures that all require WORKS: John 5:28-29: John 5:28-29, Romans 2:5-13, Galatians 6:7-9, 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 - 3:10, Rev. 22-11-14, James 2:14-2- 14

James

 

[protestantman]

No, because you admit that faith and works are inseparable yet you only choose to focus on faith. Why is that?

James

If I say I have faith then it is merely redundant to say I have works. Faith is judged by Chirst. The method of judging my faith is by my works. Not the other way around.

When Christ spoke of the tree and the fruits, understand the way a tree works. A tree is rooted to the soil and water by its branches and the trunk. The fruit developes because of this connection. The fruit does not supply the tree with life. The fruit is completely dependent on the roots. Fruit is the product of good roots. Likewise, we our rooted in Christ(the living water, and the good soil) by faith. Christ then uses our faith to produce works. Works are therefore completely dependent on faith. Works are the product of Faith.
How can you explain it any other way?

 

[mlchance]

Works are the product of Faith.

Which does nothing to demonstrate that salvation is by “faith alone”, especially given the unavoidable fact that not only does Scripture never make this claim, but Scripture explicity refutes it.

So, no matter how you slice it, the (mis)statement that passages such as Romans 3:21 say salvation is by “faith alone” is, at best, incomplete.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[ni8_shadow]

No. this is not true. Notice it says “The gates of Hell.”
It does not say sin or corruption. Also, it says “…will not prevail” The church can fall into error and still prevail. Why did Christ use the word “prevail” in this promise?
pre·vail (pr-vl)
intr.v. pre·vailed, pre·vail·ing, pre·vails

1. To be greater in strength or influence; triumph: prevailed against the enemy.
2. To be or become effective; win out: hoped justice would prevail.
3. To be most common or frequent; be predominant: a region where snow and ice prevail.
4. To be in force, use, or effect; be current: an ancient tradition that still prevails.
5. To use persuasion or inducement successfully. Often used with on, upon, or with.

In Baseball, if you let the other team score points, can you still prevail? God’s was promising that the church would Ultimately overcome the gates of hell. He made no promise that the journey would be without error.

What gates does one have to pass through to get to “Hades” or “Sheol?” Death…and what was the cause of death? Sin. Who is the origin of Sin? Satan. How did Satan tempt Eve and bring forth the fall? False teaching contrary to God’s Word. The powers of Satan shall not prevail over the Church. That includes false teachings. Does that mean the human members of Christ’s body are impeccable? Nope. What it does mean is that the Church, despite it’s human members, shall never fall victim to Satan’s influence of false teaching.

You must also read the “gates” verse in light of the “whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven” verse. Jesus states in the “gates” verse that the Church will not fall into false teaching as Satan would want it to. And in the “binding” verses, Jesus states that WHATEVER His Church will declare, Heaven will back up! WHATEVER is a powerful word. Jesus guard’s His Church from false doctrine in order to keep His promises.

 

[ni8_shadow]

Forgot to mention that Christ in His “Gates of Hades” verse is not talking about tallying up the total number of false errors at the end of time and comparing them to the good doctrines. If Satan somehow creeps in some false teaching, he has prevailed against the Spirit of God guarding the Church. You used the analogy of a baseball game. Well how bout this…each run scored by the “at bat team” means that they have PREVAILED over the defense of the fielding team. And team Christ will not allow any runs…period.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Forgot to mention that Christ in His “Gates of Hades” verse is not talking about tallying up the total number of false errors at the end of time and comparing them to the good doctrines. If Satan somehow creeps in some false teaching, he has prevailed against the Spirit of God guarding the Church. You used the analogy of a baseball game. Well how bout this…each run scored by the “at bat team” means that they have PREVAILED over the defense of the fielding team. And team Christ will not allow any runs…period.

I agree. Some here would think a .300 batting average was good. All it takes is one mortal sin and every good work and every positive thing one ever did counts for nothing - end of ballgame forever.

Heretics and defiant sects should take to heart the profound power that the Church has in loosing and binding. Mother Church has zero tolerance for deliberate heretical teaching and challenges to Her Authority. All it takes is an Excommunication of a sect leader or an official ruling from The Chair to declare a teaching invalid, heretical, and anathema. The followers of that false teaching who persist in that error are automatically CUT OFF from the forgiveness of sins through the authority of the Church. Being cut off from the Church sacraments of reconciliation is essentially a spiritual death penalty since the continued disobedience is a grave sin. Unless such come back to The Church and request forgiveness and repent they don’t stand a snow balls chance in Hell of making it to Heaven.

A few 1500’s people who were excommunicated:
Henry of Navarre
**Henry VIII of England, in 1533 **
Andreas Karlstadt, in 1520
**Martin Luther, in 1521 **
Martin Bucer, in 1523
**Elizabeth I of England, in 1570 **
Jakub Uchański primate of Poland, in 1558
Alfonso d’Este, in 1510
Charles d’Amboise, in 1510
Giovanni II Bentivoglio, in 1506
Pietro Colonna, in 1501

More here:List of People Excummunicated

Protestants are on gravely thin ice and really are heretical in the traditional sense. Vatican II softened how we deal with Protestants as “seperated brothers” in a spirit of ecumenicalism but I tell you - its time to get real since your sins are not forgiven unless you confess to a priest.

James

 

[protestantman]

The followers of that false teaching who persist in that error are automatically CUT OFF from the forgiveness of sins through the authority of the Church. Being cut off from the Church sacraments of reconciliation is essentially a spiritual death penalty since the continued disobedience is a grave sin. Unless such come back to The Church and request forgiveness and repent they don’t stand a snow balls chance in Hell of making it to Heaven.

So by what you say, I am not truly saved?
Then what do you say to Colossians 2

6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,** God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.**