A Concern About A British Airline Policy - For Chistians Only (Important)!!

[Neverland]

Dear Gonzales,

You said:
like i said, seems like you don’t know the difference between a question and an assertion.

So, when you said that apostates must be killed than I ask you: So does every molsem thinking of killing apostates?
Well, that’s in the eye of the beholder, anyway.

You then said:
never implies that, doesn’t it? what does my ever attending church have to do with anything? i never said i was one of those protestants.

Do you know about Sunday School? Dio you know about the steps of religious teaching in Protestant? That’s why I ask you have you ever gone to the Church because when you said that you know Christians who go to the Church but NEVER read Bible, suddenly I doubt that you have ever become a Christian or go the Church. Because honestly, everyone who make themselves go to the Church must have ever read Bible.
Oh. Or you may try to say about blind man or some men with deficiencies?

You said:
he never said you “only” said that, did he? he made a statement in accordance with what you said. he didn’t limit it to that, nor did he mention anything about its sufficiency.

So if I cut only a part of your sentence to support my case, then it’s honest, as long as I didn’t comment anything more. Ok, I will keep that in mind when discussing with you. Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut.

You also said:
the need for explanitory notes shows that something is lost in translation. supplimentary notes are not part of the actual translation, they are supplimentary notes to the translation.

here is an examples for you:
the phrase: al-hamdu lillahi ar-rabb il-'aalameen.
translation: the praise is for Allah, Lord of the worlds.

ar-rabb – the Lord. the word “lord” does not convey the full meaning of the word rabb, which also includes “cherisher”, “sustainer”, “someone who rears, raises, cultivates”. these meanings are all lost when the word rabb is translated as lord.

The Explanatory Note is a part of Translation, unless if it’s not attached to the translation. But a good translator will make a note on every word that he thought may confuse readers. Like the word Ar-rabb in your example. A good translator will include the explanation like you do above. Thanks for proving my case that the word ar-rabb is able to be translated without losing its meaning with your notes.
Then only thing lost in translation in my opinion is the poetic sense or things like that.

Neverland

 

[Neverland]

Dear Gonzales,

you said:
uhhh . . . not quite. arabic and hebrew are sister languages; similarities are expected. al-maseeh is not borrowed or assimilated from hebrew. it’s derived from the arabic root word masaha, which means “to wipe, to annoint”. if you want an example of an arabic word that was borrowed or assimilated from another language, then ديموقراطية (deemooqraatiyyah) is a perfect example.

Oh. Really. So tell me is there anyone beside Isa Almasih who is called Al Masih in Quran? And as you know the character comes from the Jews and Christian.

Neverland

 

[r.gonzales]

Neverland:

So, when you said that apostates must be killed than I ask you: So does every molsem thinking of killing apostates?

you’re asking a question, not making an assertion.

Neverland:

Do you know about Sunday School? Dio you know about the steps of religious teaching in Protestant?

yes, i know of these things. i used to be a protestant, i used to go to church, i used to attend sunday school, and i used to read the bible. it still has nothing to do with the fact that i knew of some protestants who went to church and never read the bible.

Neverland:

The Explanatory Note is a part of Translation, unless if it’s not attached to the translation.

explanatary notes are explanatary notes. they are not part of the translation itself. they are supplimentary to the translation and the reason why they are included is because the translation is not sufficient.

Neverland:

Oh. Really. So tell me is there anyone beside Isa Almasih who is called Al Masih in Quran? And as you know the character comes from the Jews and Christian.

yes, really. you fail to make the distinction between the origin of a particular word in a language and a title given to a particular individual. the fact that no other individual in the Quran is referred to as “the annointed one” means nothing with respect to a language borrowing or assimilating words from other languages. maseeh is an arabic word derived from the verb masaha (to wipe/annoint). it is not a hebrew word.

 

[Neverland]

Dear Gonzales,

you said:
you’re asking a question, not making an assertion.

So be it.

you also said:
yes, i know of these things. i used to be a protestant, i used to go to church, i used to attend sunday school, and i used to read the bible. it still has nothing to do with the fact that i knew of some protestants who went to church and never read the bible.

This key point that makes me doubt you:

1. Go to the church.
2. Never read bible.
   As a Protestant, when you go to the Church, there’s a part where you recite together verses from Bible. I become curious if your Protestant Church NEVER did such a thing. Care to let me know from what church were you? I have some evangelist friend and we can check for sure.

You then said:
explanatary notes are explanatary notes. they are not part of the translation itself. they are supplimentary to the translation and the reason why they are included is because the translation is not sufficient.

I told you, when the explanatory notes are attached together with the translation, THEY ARE part of the translation. And so do footnotes. They are meant so we can understand passages we read. That’s the essense of translation, right?

You end your conclusion:
yes, really. you fail to make the distinction between the origin of a particular word in a language and a title given to a particular individual. the fact that no other individual in the Quran is referred to as “the annointed one” means nothing with respect to a language borrowing or assimilating words from other languages. maseeh is an arabic word derived from the verb masaha (to wipe/annoint). it is not a hebrew word.

Care to prove it? This character was a Jew, not an Arab. And only this Character was called as Al Masih in Quran. So while you believe in borrowing between languages, why you insist that the term Al Masih is ORIGINALLY from Arab. Do you have a proof that the word was used before the time of Isa Al Masih?

Neverland

 

[r.gonzales]

Neverland:

As a Protestant, when you go to the Church, there’s a part where you recite together verses from Bible.

firstly, not all protestant churches are of the same denomination or conduct their services in the same manner. secondly, not every person who attends church does so out of choice. youth are often forced to go by their parents. thirdly, doubt all you want. speculate all you want. run whatever checks you want with your evangelist friends. makes no difference and has doesn’t really have anything to do with the topic.

Neverland:

I told you, when the explanatory notes are attached together with the translation, THEY ARE part of the translation. And so do footnotes. They are meant so we can understand passages we read. That’s the essense of translation, right?

what you fail to understand is that footnotes, endnotes or any other comments made in the margins, any additions added in brackets, even within the body of the text itself, are supplementary to the translation of a text. translating a text is rendering it into another language – any comments or explanatory notes added by the translator to help explain something is not part of the original text.

Neverland:

Care to prove it? This character was a Jew, not an Arab. And only this Character was called as Al Masih in Quran. So while you believe in borrowing between languages, why you insist that the term Al Masih is ORIGINALLY from Arab. Do you have a proof that the word was used before the time of Isa Al Masih?

i don’t have to prove anything. you don’t seem to know the difference between the title given to someone and the meaning of a particular word some language. al-maseeh is a title given to jesus. maseeh is a derivative from an arabic root word. it is a passive participle that means “annointed/wiped/cleaned”. it is an arabic word, derived from an arabic root verb. if you want to talk about something borrowed from hebrew, you should use jesus’s actual name as an example. 'eesaa is the arabized version of jesus’s name in hebrew. 'eesaa is not a word of arabic origin.

 

[discipleofJesus]

r.gonzales:

if you want to talk about something borrowed from hebrew, you should use jesus’s actual name as an example. 'eesaa is the arabized version of jesus’s name in hebrew. 'eesaa is not a word of arabic origin.

Actually, Jesus’ name in Hebrew is Yeshua. Jesus’ name in Arabic is Yasou’. Christians who speak Arabic refer to Jesus as Yasou’ not 'Eesaa. However, the name the Qur’an gives to Jesus is 'Eesaa, for some reason?

 

[r.gonzales]

discipleofJesus:

Actually, Jesus’ name in Hebrew is Yeshua. Jesus’ name in Arabic is Yasou’. Christians who speak Arabic refer to Jesus as Yasou’ not 'Eesaa. However, the name the Qur’an gives to Jesus is 'Eesaa, for some reason?

yasoo’ is not a word of arabic origin either. it’s a direct transliteration of the hebrew. from what’s mentioned in this article: ynca.com/Mini%20Studies/mistaken_j.htm it seems as 'eesaa is an arabic transliteration of the greek iesous, which is the greek transliteration of yehoshua and yeshua.

reason for this is probably due to what’s mentioned here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language. hebrew was “dead” as a spoken language up until fairly recently.

 

[Neverland]

Dear Gonzales,

You said:
firstly, not all protestant churches are of the same denomination or conduct their services in the same manner. secondly, not every person who attends church does so out of choice. youth are often forced to go by their parents. thirdly, doubt all you want. speculate all you want. run whatever checks you want with your evangelist friends. makes no difference and has doesn’t really have anything to do with the topic.

Hmm, so you care to tell me from what denomination that never do the Bible reading. So I can check with my friends, who come from different denominational. Because this is interesting that while you claim to be an ex-Protestant, it seems that you are not what you said.

You also said:
what you fail to understand is that footnotes, endnotes or any other comments made in the margins, any additions added in brackets, even within the body of the text itself, are supplementary to the translation of a text. translating a text is rendering it into another language – any comments or explanatory notes added by the translator to help explain something is not part of the original text.

What you don’t understand, a translation is NOT an original text. A translation is meant to make the ORIGINAL text to be understood by people who don’t understand the languange of the original text. Thus, the supplement, foot notes, and so are part of Translation.

You end your comment by saying:
i don’t have to prove anything. you don’t seem to know the difference between the title given to someone and the meaning of a particular word some language. al-maseeh is a title given to jesus. maseeh is a derivative from an arabic root word. it is a passive participle that means “annointed/wiped/cleaned”. it is an arabic word, derived from an arabic root verb. if you want to talk about something borrowed from hebrew, you should use jesus’s actual name as an example. 'eesaa is the arabized version of jesus’s name in hebrew. 'eesaa is not a word of arabic origin.

I just say that since you are sure that the term Al Masih which is used by a Jewish Character does stem from arabic word, it must be used BEFORE the Jewish Character (namely Isa/Jesus) got the title. So proof me.
A word comes into a language when you need a definition of something that hasn’t been in that language. I have given you the example. Before, American doesn’t have a box that can accompany singing, it was created by Japanese. The Japanese calls it Karaoke. That’s why, American absorbed the word and calls it Karaoke. But for languange which has already had synonim, why should making up one? For example, German people called “city” as “der staadt”. Since Englishmen has already had the term for “der staadt” as “city”, they don’t need to absorb it.
So the only explanation that you can by refusing the notion that “Al Masih” comes from “Messiah” is by showing that the word has been commonly used before it was used as Isa’s Title. Is it hard for you to understand?

Neverland

 

[r.gonzales]

Neverland:

Because this is interesting that while you claim to be an ex-Protestant, it seems that you are not what you said.

yeah . . . sure. stating that i knew protestants who went to church but never read the bible now suddenly puts doubt upon my being an ex-protestant or that my being an ex-protestant puts doubt on the fact that i knew protestants who went to church but never read the bible. great logic there.

Neverland:

What you don’t understand, a translation is NOT an original text. A translation is meant to make the ORIGINAL text to be understood by people who don’t understand the languange of the original text. Thus, the supplement, foot notes, and so are part of Translation.

we’re going to have to agree to disagree here. you obviously don’t know the difference between supplimentary commentary and notes to the translated text and the translated text itself.

Neverland:

I just say that since you are sure that the term Al Masih which is used by a Jewish Character does stem from arabic word, it must be used BEFORE the Jewish Character (namely Isa/Jesus) got the title. So proof me . . . . Is it hard for you to understand?

that’s a good question; ask yourself that. is it so hard to understand between a title used for a person and the actual word’s meaning in the langauge? the fact that it is derived from a root word is proof that it was not borrowed from another language. arabic words that are borrowed or assimilated from another language are not derivatives of root words. how hard is that for you to understand, as well?

it was nice “conversing” with you. this is my last reply to you concerning this topic as it seems we’re going nowhere.

 

[Han_Ji_Hye]

LOL… the best joke I ever read from an ex protestant. Just because you knew ‘some’ protestants who went to church never read the bible so you doubt your faith in Jesus? You were not believing in Jesus from the first place that is why you are a Muslim. Great logic for those Christians who never read the bible? how many muslims who never read the Quran? Uncountable. Do you doubt their faith just because some of them are not reading the Quran? Your claim to be an ex protestant are weak Gonzales, please stop playing taqqiya. That is not good to lie to the people here. Find a modest way rather than crying out loud you were an ex protestant. Some christians here I know are ex muslims but they never mentioned it just to prove that Islam is wrong.

 

[MStreeter]

I have met some very nice Islamic people and some very bad “Christians.” Unless you’re devoutly religious, your religious choice doesn’t seem to really affect your behavior.

However, the last suicide bomber I heard of blowing themselves up in the name if Allah was a Muslim. This isn’t something I made up. They’re blowing themselves up and killing innocent people. But, I guess if they’re not Muslim… then they’re not innocent. Death to the infidels, right? I am confused as to why when a non-Muslim person dies they cheer in the streets and when a Muslim is killed they riot. It’s not the rioting when a Muslim dies that gets me… it’s the cheering when a non-Muslim dies that gets me.

Can anyone explain why they cheer and parade through the streets when non-Muslims die? If Islam is such a peaceful religion, why the cheering… why the celebration?

Keep the Faith

 

[exoflare]

discipleofJesus:

Actually, Jesus’ name in Hebrew is Yeshua. Jesus’ name in Arabic is Yasou’. Christians who speak Arabic refer to Jesus as Yasou’ not 'Eesaa. However, the name the Qur’an gives to Jesus is 'Eesaa, for some reason?

Sounds a heck of a lot more like it would be “Esau” from Genesis…?

 

[r.gonzales]

Han Ji Hye:

LOL… the best joke I ever read from an ex protestant. Just because you knew ‘some’ protestants who went to church never read the bible so you doubt your faith in Jesus? You were not believing in Jesus from the first place that is why you are a Muslim. Great logic for those Christians who never read the bible? how many muslims who never read the Quran? Uncountable. Do you doubt their faith just because some of them are not reading the Quran? Your claim to be an ex protestant are weak Gonzales, please stop playing taqqiya. That is not good to lie to the people here. Find a modest way rather than crying out loud you were an ex protestant. Some christians here I know are ex muslims but they never mentioned it just to prove that Islam is wrong.

uhhh . . . you’ve totally missed the mark on this one, bud.

firstly, i never said in any of my posts that knowing protestants who never read the bible caused me to doubt my faith in christianity.

secondly, i never mentioned this in order to prove christianity wrong.

thirdly, implying that i am lying is a form of slander, especially when you don’t have any grounds to base your hidden accusations.

lastly, advice to you . . . try reading the conversation that’s transpired. it will prevent you from making retarded baseless comments in the future.

 

[r.gonzales]

MStreeter:

I have met some very nice Islamic people and some very bad “Christians.” Unless you’re devoutly religious, your religious choice doesn’t seem to really affect your behavior.

However, the last suicide bomber I heard of blowing themselves up in the name if Allah was a Muslim. This isn’t something I made up. They’re blowing themselves up and killing innocent people. But, I guess if they’re not Muslim… then they’re not innocent. Death to the infidels, right? I am confused as to why when a non-Muslim person dies they cheer in the streets and when a Muslim is killed they riot. It’s not the rioting when a Muslim dies that gets me… it’s the cheering when a non-Muslim dies that gets me.

Can anyone explain why they cheer and parade through the streets when non-Muslims die? If Islam is such a peaceful religion, why the cheering… why the celebration?

Keep the Faith

firstly, killing innocent lives is wrong and a sin in islam. those who commit these acts deserve punishment.

secondly, the death of innocent people is tragic and should not be celebrated.

thirdly, there is a long history that precedes what’s going on in the middle east that has culminated in what we see today; years of imperialist oppression, unfair foreign policies and many other factors that have resulted deep seeded anger and hatred. this does not justify the killings and the deaths, but it does help one to understand what’s caused the situation to be as it is.

 

[Neverland]

Dear Gonzales,

You said:
yeah . . . sure. stating that i knew protestants who went to church but never read the bible now suddenly puts doubt upon my being an ex-protestant or that my being an ex-protestant puts doubt on the fact that i knew protestants who went to church but never read the bible. great logic there.

My logic comes from an experience as a Protestant which knows that in every Protestant Church that I go so far, People who go to the Church must read Bible, at least during the reciting together.
So care to let me know from WHICH PROTESTANT CHURCH were you? So I can check it for sure. Is this question so hard for you to understand with your capability and logic?

You then said:
we’re going to have to agree to disagree here. you obviously don’t know the difference between supplimentary commentary and notes to the translated text and the translated text itself.

And friend, you don’t know the difference between original text and translated text. Translation is meant to make the original text understandable to the reader, including footnotes, and such.
Let me take a very easy example. Bible translation has footnotes and glossary and explanation, and that’s part of that TRANSLATION Bible. You got it now?

Then you continue saying:
that’s a good question; ask yourself that. is it so hard to understand between a title used for a person and the actual word’s meaning in the langauge? the fact that it is derived from a root word is proof that it was not borrowed from another language. arabic words that are borrowed or assimilated from another language are not derivatives of root words. how hard is that for you to understand, as well?

it was nice “conversing” with you. this is my last reply to you concerning this topic as it seems we’re going nowhere.

Since when the usage of that word? If you are so sure that the word had been present before the word was used for Isa, care to give me the link of orignial text with the words BEFORE Isa was born, in Arabic?

Neverland

P.S. Huh, are you going to leave like you did in Pararellism? And I don’t even do ad hominem or tu quo que here.

 

[Huguenot]

Neverland:

Dear Gonzales,

You said:
yeah . . . sure. stating that i knew protestants who went to church but never read the bible now suddenly puts doubt upon my being an ex-protestant or that my being an ex-protestant puts doubt on the fact that i knew protestants who went to church but never read the bible. great logic there.

My logic comes from an experience as a Protestant which knows that in every Protestant Church that I go so far, People who go to the Church must read Bible, at least during the reciting together.

I am a Protestant ( from France ) ; in my church and in other churches I’ve been to ( in the same denomination or other ones ) we never “recite” the Bible together : we read a passage together --or sometimes the minister reads a passage aloud, and those who want read in their Bibles at the same time-- and then the minister explains it, preaches on it … (on Sundays )

We also have Bible study hours, I don’t know what you call them in the USA, then we can ask questions, or the minister asks questions, I mean we can share on the passage that has been read.

In Sunday schools, the children often have a few verses to learn for the following Sunday, and then they sometimes recite them together, or one after another, I don’t know exactly because I’ve not been brought up as a Protestant, my parents don’t believe in God, I was nearly adult when I became a Christian…

.

 

[Neverland]

Dear Hugenot,

You said:
I am a Protestant ( from France ) ; in my church and in other churches I’ve been to ( in the same denomination or other ones ) we never “recite” the Bible together : we read a passage together --or sometimes the minister reads a passage aloud, and those who want read in their Bibles at the same time-- and then the minister explains it, preaches on it … (on Sundays )

We also have Bible study hours, I don’t know what you call them in the USA, then we can ask questions, or the minister asks questions, I mean we can share on the passage that has been read.

In Sunday schools, the children often have a few verses to learn for the following Sunday, and then they sometimes recite them together, or one after another, I don’t know exactly because I’ve not been brought up as a Protestant, my parents don’t believe in God, I was nearly adult when I became a Christian…

I mean reciting as “read aloud together” one or two verse mentioned by the Preacher (sorry my English, mon ami). My Church does that.
My key point of objection to Gonzales is that he mentioned:

1. He was an ex Protestant (born again, he said) turning Moslem.
2. He mentioned that there are some protestants he knew who went to the church and NEVER read Bible.
   I have asked him what he meant. I even asked him “NOT EVEN ONE OR TWO VERSES?” And he was positive that NEVER means NEVER.
   That’s why I doubt he ever became a protestant in the first place, for he doesn’t seem to know much about what the Protestants do in the Church.
   I have asked him the name of his Church, but he avoided this simple question so far, while in fact I want to ask this to confirm to my friends that it’s possible a person goes to that Church but NEVER read Bible, even a single verse.

Neverland

 

[Huguenot]

Neverland:

Dear Hugenot,

You said:
I am a Protestant ( from France ) ; in my church and in other churches I’ve been to ( in the same denomination or other ones ) we never “recite” the Bible together : we read a passage together --or sometimes the minister reads a passage aloud, and those who want read in their Bibles at the same time-- and then the minister explains it, preaches on it … (on Sundays )

We also have Bible study hours, I don’t know what you call them in the USA, then we can ask questions, or the minister asks questions, I mean we can share on the passage that has been read.

In Sunday schools, the children often have a few verses to learn for the following Sunday, and then they sometimes recite them together, or one after another, I don’t know exactly because I’ve not been brought up as a Protestant, my parents don’t believe in God, I was nearly adult when I became a Christian…

I mean reciting as “read aloud together” one or two verse mentioned by the Preacher (sorry my English, mon ami). My Church does that.
My key point of objection to Gonzales is that he mentioned:

1. He was an ex Protestant (born again, he said) turning Moslem.
2. He mentioned that there are some protestants he knew who went to the church and NEVER read Bible.
   I have asked him what he meant. I even asked him “NOT EVEN ONE OR TWO VERSES?” And he was positive that NEVER means NEVER.
   That’s why I doubt he ever became a protestant in the first place, for he doesn’t seem to know much about what the Protestants do in the Church.
   I have asked him the name of his Church, but he avoided this simple question so far, while in fact I want to ask this to confirm to my friends that it’s possible a person goes to that Church but NEVER read Bible, even a single verse.

Neverland

Sure , we can have language problems since English is not my native language, and it isn’t yours either !!!

I understand what you mean by “reciting” verses, thank you for this precision …

Maybe Gonzalez referred to Protestants that never read the Bible personally, I mean , at home ???

At church it also seems impossible for me to have a service without a passage from the Bible …

But I haven’t “followed” all the discussion with Gonzalez to know ; why should he be lying ???

 

[r.gonzales]

i hoping that my last post was to be my last post, so Allah willing, this will be my final post addressing your side topics here in this thread.

Neverland:

I mean reciting as “read aloud together” one or two verse mentioned by the Preacher (sorry my English, mon ami). My Church does that.
My key point of objection to Gonzales is that he mentioned:

1. He was an ex Protestant (born again, he said) turning Moslem.
2. He mentioned that there are some protestants he knew who went to the church and NEVER read Bible.
   I have asked him what he meant. I even asked him “NOT EVEN ONE OR TWO VERSES?” And he was positive that NEVER means NEVER.
   That’s why I doubt he ever became a protestant in the first place, for he doesn’t seem to know much about what the Protestants do in the Church.
   I have asked him the name of his Church, but he avoided this simple question so far, while in fact I want to ask this to confirm to my friends that it’s possible a person goes to that Church but NEVER read Bible, even a single verse.

neverland, you really need to read more carefully because you seem to have a number of misunderstandings and misconceptions. they are highlighted in this last post of yours.

firstly, i was born into a protestant family, baptised when i was born and raised as a christian from childhood up until my teenage years. i was not a “born-again”, nor did i ever say i was.

secondly, i said i knew protestants who went to church and never read the bible. i did not specify what church they went to, mine or any other.

thirdly, your reasoning prevents you from realising that (a) while i’m sure that pretty much every church i know and have attended sings hymns, none of them recited biblical verses in congregation, in unison—which is what you seem to be suggesting takes place in the services you’ve attended, (b) not all those in attendance are there by choice—heck, not all everyone in attendance is paying attention the the sermon or service being held (believe it or not, there are some children, teenagers and even adults who are forced to go to church by their parents or other family members and end up sleeping through the service); and (c) not all children that attend church go with the other children to sunday school when they leave the service to do so.

lastly, i choose not to answer your question regarding the church i used to go to because (a) i do not believe that it is of any relevance to what i said about those i knew who went to church and never read the bible, and (b) because details such as those from my personal life are none of your business, nor does it matter to me if you believe that i was really protestant or not. speculate and doubt all you want, makes no difference to me.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread has drifted FAR off topic.

It is now closed.