O
Ortho
Guest
How are the lies different?
All people don’t lie? Who doesn’t?
A Concern About A British Airline Policy - For Chistians Only (Important)!!
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All people don’t lie? Who doesn’t?
B
Booklover
Guest
Great post!
Vickie
D
discipleofJesus
Guest
You’ve gotta be kidding. You can’t see the the difference between
a Muslim lying **in accordance with his religion **
and a **Christian ** lying going against his religion.
?
Obviously that, at least, makes religous Christians more trustworthy than religous Muslims.
O
Ortho
Guest
No. I don’t see the difference. Both groups lie. What makes the lies different?
If Christians lie, why should they be considered trustworthy?
D
discipleofJesus
Guest
Your post quoting Islamic scholar Imam Ghazali and Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369 was a great post tooGreat post!
Vickie
R
r.gonzales
Guest
i think it’s just his/her habit. neverland reminds me an awful lot of one particular member from this board (deExupry/boa constrictor/etc) who would address me as such every now and then. perhaps something common with indonesians?
your assertion is a lie. bring one explicit statement from the prophet that says unrestricted lying regardless of the circumstances is ok.
al-imam al-ghazalee was a sufi mystic who said many things contrary to islam’s teachings and the reference provided was a book translated by one of the biggest sufi heretics around today, nuh ha meem keller.
D
discipleofJesus
Guest
How do you know that Christians lie?
If Islam allows Muslims to lie, while Christianity forbids Christians to lie, obviously that, at least, makes religious Christians more trustworthy than religious Muslims. It also makes Muslims who lie deceptive and dishonest.
Ibn Kathir (the Sunni scholar) comments that
“Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships… Allah warned against such behavior when He said, ‘O you who believe! Take not my enemies and your enemies as friends, showing affection towards them. And whosoever of you does that, then indeed he has gone astray from the straight path.’ And, ‘O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends of each other. And whoever befriends them, then surely, he is one of them.’. Allah said next, ‘Unless you indeed fear a danger from them,’ meaning, except those (Muslims) who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda’ said, ‘We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.’”
Ibn Kathir’s Tafsir -Surah 3:28 www.tafsir.com - cited in answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/ch16_understanding_dishonesty.htm) emphasis in answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/ch16_understanding_dishonesty.htm ]
"**Sunni Muslims and taqiya **
However, although taqiya is usually seen as a Shia doctrine only, it is practiced and taught also by Sunni Muslims, cf. the discussion of *friendship with unbelievers * in the entry on FRIENDS. Here just one quotation from a Sunni website, Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)), advising in regard to making friends with non-Muslims:
“Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Awliyaa’ (supporters, helpers) instead of the believers, and whoever does that, will never be helped by Allaah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them” [Aal 'Imraan 3:28]
This verse explains all the verses quoted above which forbid taking the kaafirs as friends in general terms. What that refers to is in cases where one has a choice, but in cases of fear and TAQIYAH it is permissible to make friends with them, as much as is essential to protect oneself against their evil. That is subject to the condition that one’s faith should not be affected by that friendship and the one who is behaves in that manner out of necessity is not one who behaves in that manner out of choice.
Shaykh Muhammad al-Saalih al-'Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about the ruling on mixing with the kuffaar and treating them kindly hoping that they will become Muslim. He replied:
Undoubtedly the Muslim is obliged to HATE the enemies of Allaah and to disavow them, because this is the way of the Messengers and their followers…
Based on this, it is not permissible for a Muslim to feel any love in his heart towards the enemies of Allaah who are in fact his enemies too…
But if a Muslim treats them with KINDNESS and gentleness in the hope that they will become Muslim and will believe, there is nothing wrong with that, because it comes under the heading of opening their hearts to Islam.** But if he despairs of them becoming Muslim, then he should treat them accordingly**. This is something that is discussed in detail by the scholars, especially in the book *Ahkaam Ahl al-Dhimmah * by Ibn al-Qayyim … (Question #59879: What is meant by taking the kuffaar as friends? Ruling on mixing with the kuffaar; bold and capital emphasis ours)"
Taken from answering-islam.org/Index/T/taqiya.html
cont…
D
discipleofJesus
Guest
…
This also means that your advice
Ortho:
As I said on another thread (where i responded to a Muslim who suggested that people should learn about Islam only from Muslims)
discipleofJesus:
This also means that your advice
is not very good advice.
As I said on another thread (where i responded to a Muslim who suggested that people should learn about Islam only from Muslims)
O
Ortho
Guest
"**Sunni Muslims and taqiya **
However, although taqiya is usually seen as a Shia doctrine only, it is practiced and taught also by Sunni Muslims, cf. the discussion of friendship with unbelievers in the entry on FRIENDS. Here just one quotation from a Sunni website, Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)), advising in regard to making friends with non-Muslims:
“Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Awliyaa’ (supporters, helpers) instead of the believers, and whoever does that, will never be helped by Allaah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them” [Aal 'Imraan 3:28]
This verse explains all the verses quoted above which forbid taking the kaafirs as friends in general terms. What that refers to is in cases where one has a choice, but in cases of fear and TAQIYAH it is permissible to make friends with them, as much as is essential to protect oneself against their evil. That is subject to the condition that one’s faith should not be affected by that friendship and the one who is behaves in that manner out of necessity is not one who behaves in that manner out of choice.
Shaykh Muhammad al-Saalih al-'Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about the ruling on mixing with the kuffaar and treating them kindly hoping that they will become Muslim. He replied:
Undoubtedly the Muslim is obliged to HATE the enemies of Allaah and to disavow them, because this is the way of the Messengers and their followers…
Based on this, it is not permissible for a Muslim to feel any love in his heart towards the enemies of Allaah who are in fact his enemies too…
But if a Muslim treats them with KINDNESS and gentleness in the hope that they will become Muslim and will believe, there is nothing wrong with that, because it comes under the heading of opening their hearts to Islam.** But if he despairs of them becoming Muslim, then he should treat them accordingly**. This is something that is discussed in detail by the scholars, especially in the book *Ahkaam Ahl al-Dhimmah * by Ibn al-Qayyim … (Question #59879: What is meant by taking the kuffaar as friends? Ruling on mixing with the kuffaar; bold and capital emphasis ours)"
Taken from answering-islam.org/Index/T/taqiya.html
I know Christians lie because I have observed it. I have observed it in religious Christians, so I conclude they don’t care what their religion teaches. I have seen nothing in the behavior of Christians that shows they have any greater respect for the truth than any other group. They act just like everybody else.
I also note you are not providing accurate information about Islam’s teaching on lying. It is limited to very specific circumstances where one is in perilous danger. I will leave it to R. Gonzales to explain because I suspect he knows more than I do.
O
Ortho
Guest
Christians lie. Muslims lie. Hindus lie. Atheists lie. Everybody lies. Christians even lie about their propensity to lie.
Maybe I can find a good book on Catholicism by James White?
D
discipleofJesus
Guest
Nice try to appeal to Catholics by comparing my advice
(that Catholics/Christians read both books by Muslims on Islam and by Catholics/Christians on Islam)
to finding a good book on Catholicism by James White.
Logical fallacies of faulty analogy and *appeal to emotion *
O
Ortho
Guest
I just love it when people name fallacies.
And here I thought Christians didn’t lie. James White is a Christian.
D
discipleofJesus
Guest
- straw man fallacy who said there isn’t even one Christian who lies?
- not that I want to discuss if James White is a liar or not, I haven’t read his books. but you haven’t actually shown that he is a liar (not that it really matters if he is or isn’t, in regards to the main topic being discussed here)
- red herring fallacy
O
Ortho
Guest
discipleofJesus said:1) straw man fallacy
- not that I want to discuss if James White is a liar or not, I haven’t read his books. but you haven’t actually shown that he is a liar (not that it really matters if he is or isn’t, in regards to the main topic being discussed here)
- red herring fallacy
I know I haven’t shown White is a liar. Is he?
I do love seeing fallacies named in posts.
R
r.gonzales
Guest
saying that taqiyyah, which refers to concealing the truth as a means of protection, is limited to very specific circumstances is right on the mark. a concession for lying is given if one fears some sort of danger or tribulation that might befall him and in situations of war (literally, not figuratively as some have tried to assert).
N
Neverland
Guest
Dear Gonzales,
You said:
firstly, no one said religion was only about language.
Agree with that.
You then said:
secondly, religion is more than just a relationship between God and mankind; it’s is a way of life, a set of beliefs, morals, ethics, tenets, personal conducts, and mutual interactions.
Agree, but manily religion is the relationship between God and mankind. It may contain the beliefs, moral, conducts that God WANTS.
You also said:
thirdly, in order to learn about a religion, one must return to that religion’s source: its scriptures and religious literature. in islam, that source is written in the arabic language; the language the Quran was revealed in, the language that prophet muhammad and his companions spoke and that their statements and teachings have been recorded in, the language that the overwhelming majority of islam’s scholars spoke and wrote with. arabic is an integral key to understanding the Quran, and also to understanding the religion’s other major source texts. arabic is the key to islamic knowledge, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
lastly, translations are always lacking, hence the old idiom “lost in translation.” as someone who is fluent in english and can also understand arabic, i can honestly say without any sort of exaggeration, that translating arabic to english and maintaining the exact understanding and full import of what’s being said is near impossible. many of the islamic texts available in english are in need of serious revision and in some cases, retranslation. to say that the number of works available in english as compared to the works available in arabic is miniscule would be an understatement. even with respect to some of the major works that have been translated into english (such as the taareekh of at-tabaree), they are mostly only abridgements of the originals. those made by non-muslim scholars and translators often suffer from the fact that they do not know how to distinguish between what is correct and authentic from what is incorrect and weak. sometimes, as i’ve often seen, these works are translated by those who are hostile towards islam, and end up clipping, distorting, and adding to the text in order to present the text in whatever manner they wish to present it. as for those made by muslim translation and publication houses, with the exception of a small few, many of these are also lacking, but mainly because some the translators are not fluent in both languages, which is a must in translating. so in the end, the best and most reliable way to gain knowledge of islam is to actually take the time to learn the language the religion’s knowledge is found in.
In the past, it may be true. But the problem is, you state as though it’s a KEY CRITICAL FACTOR to understand about Islam and that their translation is not at all sufficient. My main objection to this is that although there are a very few words may not be able to be translated properly, but overally ALL LANGUAGES can be translated and understood by other people. If not, then we may not be able to read Socrates, we may not read ancient scripts from different cultures. And we must be very thankful to the experts who spend their time understanding cultures and languages. And the very few words that is not being able to be translated properly can be understood by reading their context. That’s my opinion.
Dear Ortho,
You said:
Sorry. I thought you were a Catholic. So, do protestants normally address each other as “My Dear?” (I’m all atwitter now.)
Do most protestants think Jesus is the Son of God?
I guess we agree that Muslims are good sources to learn about Islam. That’s good. We wouldn’t want to be reduced to the situation where we must learn about Christianity from Hindus.
Dear is a common calling. You may say that you don’t like being called dear then.
Jesus is the Son of God anyway, based on Bible.
Actually, learning should come from all sources, to avoid the biass. When you learn Islam only from what moslems says, it’s not enough. You need to use your own thinking, read Islamic books, compare it with other books like history will be very invaluable.
That’s my opinion.
Neverland.
You said:
firstly, no one said religion was only about language.
Agree with that.
You then said:
secondly, religion is more than just a relationship between God and mankind; it’s is a way of life, a set of beliefs, morals, ethics, tenets, personal conducts, and mutual interactions.
Agree, but manily religion is the relationship between God and mankind. It may contain the beliefs, moral, conducts that God WANTS.
You also said:
thirdly, in order to learn about a religion, one must return to that religion’s source: its scriptures and religious literature. in islam, that source is written in the arabic language; the language the Quran was revealed in, the language that prophet muhammad and his companions spoke and that their statements and teachings have been recorded in, the language that the overwhelming majority of islam’s scholars spoke and wrote with. arabic is an integral key to understanding the Quran, and also to understanding the religion’s other major source texts. arabic is the key to islamic knowledge, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
lastly, translations are always lacking, hence the old idiom “lost in translation.” as someone who is fluent in english and can also understand arabic, i can honestly say without any sort of exaggeration, that translating arabic to english and maintaining the exact understanding and full import of what’s being said is near impossible. many of the islamic texts available in english are in need of serious revision and in some cases, retranslation. to say that the number of works available in english as compared to the works available in arabic is miniscule would be an understatement. even with respect to some of the major works that have been translated into english (such as the taareekh of at-tabaree), they are mostly only abridgements of the originals. those made by non-muslim scholars and translators often suffer from the fact that they do not know how to distinguish between what is correct and authentic from what is incorrect and weak. sometimes, as i’ve often seen, these works are translated by those who are hostile towards islam, and end up clipping, distorting, and adding to the text in order to present the text in whatever manner they wish to present it. as for those made by muslim translation and publication houses, with the exception of a small few, many of these are also lacking, but mainly because some the translators are not fluent in both languages, which is a must in translating. so in the end, the best and most reliable way to gain knowledge of islam is to actually take the time to learn the language the religion’s knowledge is found in.
In the past, it may be true. But the problem is, you state as though it’s a KEY CRITICAL FACTOR to understand about Islam and that their translation is not at all sufficient. My main objection to this is that although there are a very few words may not be able to be translated properly, but overally ALL LANGUAGES can be translated and understood by other people. If not, then we may not be able to read Socrates, we may not read ancient scripts from different cultures. And we must be very thankful to the experts who spend their time understanding cultures and languages. And the very few words that is not being able to be translated properly can be understood by reading their context. That’s my opinion.
Dear Ortho,
You said:
Sorry. I thought you were a Catholic. So, do protestants normally address each other as “My Dear?” (I’m all atwitter now.)
Do most protestants think Jesus is the Son of God?
I guess we agree that Muslims are good sources to learn about Islam. That’s good. We wouldn’t want to be reduced to the situation where we must learn about Christianity from Hindus.
Dear is a common calling. You may say that you don’t like being called dear then.
Jesus is the Son of God anyway, based on Bible.
Actually, learning should come from all sources, to avoid the biass. When you learn Islam only from what moslems says, it’s not enough. You need to use your own thinking, read Islamic books, compare it with other books like history will be very invaluable.
That’s my opinion.
Neverland.
J
Josephene
Guest
Found the conversion account of neverland rather touching!
Wondering though, having had good veneration to the Bl. mother, from the islamic background , and now being Protestant , do you not miss having her motherly presence in your life …
Hope you would look up www.ewtn.com, doc. library , to read about the Fatima apparitions and miracles , that have world wide significance, has a Moslem connection and hope would help you to bring the truth of God’s Love and Presence to others out there …
God bless!
Wondering though, having had good veneration to the Bl. mother, from the islamic background , and now being Protestant , do you not miss having her motherly presence in your life …
Hope you would look up www.ewtn.com, doc. library , to read about the Fatima apparitions and miracles , that have world wide significance, has a Moslem connection and hope would help you to bring the truth of God’s Love and Presence to others out there …
God bless!
O
Ortho
Guest
But my question was, "Do protestants normally address each other as “My Dear.” That’s two words.
I didn’t ask if Jesus was the Son of God. I asked if most protestants think he is the son of God. Do they?
Glad you think Islamic books are a good source to learn about Islam. They are written by Muslims.
O
Ortho
Guest
This doesn’t sound very differnt from Christian teachings.
R
r.gonzales
Guest
key words bolded. while all languages can be “translated” to other languages, there is always something lost in translation. this is a fact. there is also the fact that translators will sometimes add their own interpretation of what they’re translating into their translations; sometimes these personal interpretations differ from the intended meaning of the material being translated. so while you may get a basic understanding of what is said in a particular text, you are still not being conveyed all the information that is contained within the original text due to the fact that certain meanings and contexts of words and phrases are lost when translated from one language to another.
the best way to learn about islam is still to learn arabic so that you can refer to the source texts.
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