A Contradiction?

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billpenn

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Dear Friends,

I am struggling greatly with the following, and was hoping you would all be kind enough to share your opinions on it.

The following is from the Vatican’s website, the page on the International Catholic-Jewish Liaison Committee’s 17th meeting (the italics and underlining are mine for emphasis).

Here is the link: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/relations-jews-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20010504_new-york-meeting_en.html

"One of the difficult issues addressed by this 17th ILC meeting was the publication of Dominus Iesus. “Dominus Iesus”, Cardinal Kasper said, "is an intra-Catholic document about interreligious dialogue addressed to Catholic theologians concerning problems with relativism, syncretism, universalism and indifferentism. It does not enter into the JewishCatholic dialogue. It must be noted first that the relationship between the church and the Jewish people is unique. Second, Dominus Iesus does not call into question the salvation of Jews. Third, the Jewish covenant has not been revoked and remains salvifically effective for Jews. Fourth, Dominus Iesus must be understood properly within the context of Nostra Aetate, papal encyclicals and other official documents of the church regarding Judaism. Fifth, there is no missionary activity on the part of the church directed toward converting the Jews. Dominus Iesus is not the end of our dialogue. It is a challenge for our dialogue."

The underlined/italicized statement seems, to me, to be in direct contradiction to this:

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels…"

Also from Cantate Domino:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic Law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time (the promulgation of the Gospel) observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors.”

You can find the document from the Council of Florence here:

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#2

Since this was promulgated by an ecumenical council of the Church, the above doctrine is therefore infallible…

Why then, was something put forth during the Liaison Committee’s 17th meeting that is in plain contradiction to this infallible doctrine? A doctrine that, due to its infallibility, I am bound to believe as Catholic, just as I am bound to believe that the Virgin Mary was assumed bodily into Heaven?

The Jews are discussed at the end of Nostrae Aetate of the Second Vatican Council, and I note that Nostrae Aetate does not set aside the pronouncements of the Council of Florence that I included above…therefore, where did Cardinal Kasper come-up with his statements? Surely, he too is bound to believe the Council of Florence’s pronouncements because of their infallibility.
 
Statements by an eccumenical council are not automatically infallible statements. What you’re reading in the ancient church is a form of anti-semitism. The Church understands itself better now.

These restrictions only apply to those who know the Church is necessary for salvation and reject it…to folks like certain Jews who converted to Catholicism, but then went back to Judaism…having probably converted for economic reasons. The 1441 pronouncement would also condemn all Orthodox.

However, to state the Mosaic Law is salvicly affective is also a misstatement, Christ alone saves.

What the problem is is that we have lay people trying to interpret documents of the Church…why not ask the CHURCH how it understands these earlier statements? The tradionalists are always big on sticking to what the Church SAID, but not what it SAYS.
 
Cardinal Kasper has on numerous occasions made heretical statements. His statement has no authority and yes it does contradict infallible teachings. Asking why he’s still around is a very valid question and the fact that he is is quite scandalous. The best thing do at this point is just ignore him and move on, as nothing else can really be done.
 
The Jews are discussed at the end of Nostrae Aetate of the Second Vatican Council, and I note that Nostrae Aetate does not set aside the pronouncements of the Council of Florence that I included above…therefore, where did Cardinal Kasper come-up with his statements? Surely, he too is bound to believe the Council of Florence’s pronouncements because of their infallibility.
I beleive that Cardinal Kasper is a loose canon. He recently refused to accept 400,000 Anglicans into the Church. He has repeatedly said that
“God’s grace, which is the grace of Jesus Christ according to our faith, is available to all. Therefore, the Church believes that Judaism, i.e. the faithful response of the Jewish people to God’s irrevocable covenant,** is salvific for them**, because God is faithful to his promises.”

"Thus, while the Catholic Church regards the saving act of Christ as central to the process of human salvation for all, it also acknowledges that **Jews already dwell in a saving covenant **with God.
Cardinal Kasper- Reflections on Covenant and Mission
bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/resources/documents/interreligious/ncs_usccb120802.htm

He also has dismissed ecumenism of the return.

" Today we no longer understand ecumenism in the sense of the ecumenism of a return, by which the others would ‘be converted’ and return to being ‘Catholics.’ This was expressly abandoned by Vatican II"
geocities.com/militantis/falseecumenism.html
 
Cardinal Kasper has on numerous occasions made heretical statements. His statement has no authority and yes it does contradict infallible teachings. Asking why he’s still around is a very valid question and the fact that he is is quite scandalous. The best thing do at this point is just ignore him and move on, as nothing else can really be done.
Here we go …

So for some reason, the Vatican doesn’t see a need to remove him, and you know better than them how heretical he is?
 
Here we go …

So for some reason, the Vatican doesn’t see a need to remove him, and you know better than them how heretical he is?
So you will blindly accept the fact that he hasn’t time and again made heretical statements? You’re sticking your head in the sand when there’s a perfect example in this very thread. Cardinal Ratzinger himself called Kasper a heretic in 2001 when John Paul II was considering making him a Cardinal. Wake up and smell the coffee.
 
So you will blindly accept the fact that he hasn’t time and again made heretical statements? You’re sticking your head in the sand when there’s a perfect example in this very thread. Cardinal Ratzinger himself called Kasper a heretic in 2001 when John Paul II was considering making him a Cardinal. Wake up and smell the coffee.
Is Kasper a heretic? If he is then he is no longer a Catholic.

Do you think he says these things by mistake? That he does not believe them (contrary to Catholic doctrine) with a pertinacious will? He knows Catholic teaching and he denies it with his statements…these are not mistakes made out of ignorance.

If you don’t believe this then why do you say he has no authority?

Who took away his authority?

SFD
 
Here we go …

So for some reason, the Vatican doesn’t see a need to remove him, and you know better than them how heretical he is?
If some Catholic friend of yours denied the Trinity…and you knew he knew the Catholic teaching on the Trinity…would you consider him a heretic? Would you let him teach your children? Or would you wait for the local Bishop to censure him before you “judged” him a heretic?

SFD
 
. . .

If you don’t believe this then why do you say he has no authority?

Who took away his authority?

SFD
Does he have any authority? I think his position is an advisory one with no power to state or enforce policy.
 
Does he have any authority? I think his position is an advisory one with no power to state or enforce policy.
He’s President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. Are you saying he has no authority at all? Do you think that just because he’s not the Pope, he has no authority in the Church?

SFD
 
Two points on your response…firstly, you mention the “ancient” church…ancient or not, if something is put forth as truth (and that raises the question about whether or not these are infallible statements) it is truth for all time. Truth transcends time, space and context…I believe arguing otherwise is to adopt a relatavist position.

Regarding your assertion that these statements concern those that know that Church is necessary for salvation and reject it…if they do not know that the Church is necessary for salvation, I assume they are in invincible ignorance. However, Matthew 10:14-15:

***And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. ***

The cities that Christ speaks of above would not listen to the Gospel…they could have been in invincible ignorance as well…yet, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha on Judgment day. I don’t know that I put much stock in the invincible ignorance argument because of this bit of Scripture.

In your last paragraph you talk about interpretation…the sentences I underlined are very explicit…I don’t see much latitude at all there for interpretation. Seems pretty black-and-white to me.

Lastly, I am of course very interested in what the Church says, and want to be faithful to its teachings…I get concerned when what it SAYS contradicts what it SAID INFALLIBLY.
Statements by an eccumenical council are not automatically infallible statements. What you’re reading in the ancient church is a form of anti-semitism. The Church understands itself better now.

These restrictions only apply to those who know the Church is necessary for salvation and reject it…to folks like certain Jews who converted to Catholicism, but then went back to Judaism…having probably converted for economic reasons. The 1441 pronouncement would also condemn all Orthodox.

However, to state the Mosaic Law is salvicly affective is also a misstatement, Christ alone saves.

What the problem is is that we have lay people trying to interpret documents of the Church…why not ask the CHURCH how it understands these earlier statements? The tradionalists are always big on sticking to what the Church SAID, but not what it SAYS.
 
All things being equal, I think at the minimum he causes scandal, because he contradicts infallibly defined doctrine.
He’s President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. Are you saying he has no authority at all? Do you think that just because he’s not the Pope, he has no authority in the Church?

SFD
 
Is Kasper a heretic?
I would say it’s pretty certain. However, I’ll let the Pope decide when he should go or not. Are you implying that there have never been heretical cardinals, bishops, priests, etc. and that the Church has not allowed them to remain in their positions even after they have become public heretics? What of St. Gregory of Nyssa who taught Apocatastasis, a heresy, and not only never lost his office as bishop, but was later declared a saint?
 
**Statements by an eccumenical council are not automatically infallible statements. What you’re reading in the ancient church is a form of anti-semitism. ** The Church understands itself better now.

These restrictions only apply to those who know the Church is necessary for salvation and reject it…to folks like certain Jews who converted to Catholicism, but then went back to Judaism…having probably converted for economic reasons. The 1441 pronouncement would also condemn all Orthodox.

However, to state the Mosaic Law is salvicly affective is also a misstatement, Christ alone saves.

What the problem is is that we have lay people trying to interpret documents of the Church…why not ask the CHURCH how it understands these earlier statements? The tradionalists are always big on sticking to what the Church SAID, but not what it SAYS.

You’ve gone over the edge.
 
So you will blindly accept the fact that he hasn’t time and again made heretical statements? You’re sticking your head in the sand when there’s a perfect example in this very thread. Cardinal Ratzinger himself called Kasper a heretic in 2001 when John Paul II was considering making him a Cardinal. Wake up and smell the coffee.
But the fact remains that John Paull II did so anyway - and Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict, has not removed him from office or censured him. He therefore retains teaching authority.

As for the argument about whether or not we should wait for someone to be formally censured to make a judgement, I do believe that in a case such as this, yes we should! This is not Joe Pewsitter from the street, who is not likely to ever be noticed and censured by a bishop. This is a high ranking cardinal who operates in full view of the Vatican and works at the pleasure of the Holy Father. If they don’t see a problem with him, at least not one they are willing to do anything about, then neither do I.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SemperFidelis View Post
So you will blindly accept the fact that he hasn’t time and again made heretical statements? You’re sticking your head in the sand when there’s a perfect example in this very thread. Cardinal Ratzinger himself called Kasper a heretic in 2001 when John Paul II was considering making him a Cardinal. Wake up and smell the coffee.

But the fact remains that John Paull II did so anyway - and Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict, has not removed him from office or censured him. He therefore retains teaching authority.

As for the argument about whether or not we should wait for someone to be formally censured to make a judgement, I do believe that in a case such as this, yes we should! This is not Joe Pewsitter from the street, who is not likely to ever be noticed and censured by a bishop. This is a high ranking cardinal who operates in full view of the Vatican and works at the pleasure of the Holy Father. If they don’t see a problem with him, at least not one they are willing to do anything about, then neither do I.

Lemmings follow blindly – until they fall off a cliff.
 
I would say it’s pretty certain. However, I’ll let the Pope decide when he should go or not. Are you implying that there have never been heretical cardinals, bishops, priests, etc. and that the Church has not allowed them to remain in their positions even after they have become public heretics? What of St. Gregory of Nyssa who taught Apocatastasis, a heresy, and not only never lost his office as bishop, but was later declared a saint?
Was he really a heretic? What is the source for this idea?

And are you suggesting that he compares with Cardinal Kasper? Do you think Kasper could actually be a Saint?

Do you have any other examples…maybe more recent?

SFD
 
The following is from the Vatican’s website**… Cardinal Kasper said…*****"**** the Jewish covenant has not been revoked and remains salvifically effective for Jews*."
One thing to understand in Catholic ecclesiology, “Cardinal Kasper said…” does not constitute very weighty authoritative force, especially since other cardinals have publically disputed what Cardinal Kasper said.

I recommend the following rebuttal article by Cardinal Avery Dulles, “Covenant and Mission,” America, October 21, 2002. Keep in mind, this too is “Cardinal Dulles said…”, which is theological opinion, not a doctrinal statement of ecclesial force. But you can see that it disagrees with what Cardinal Kasper said.

Moreover, it is well known that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) and Cardinal Kaspar have disagreed with regard to how Dominus Iesus is to be properly understood, Cardinal Ratzinger’s interpretation being more convincing to me as it was authored under his authority as prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith. Dominus Iesus is a text of ecclesial authority, not simply theological opinion.
 
One thing to understand in Catholic ecclesiology, “Cardinal Kasper said…” does not constitute very weighty authoritative force, especially since other cardinals have publically disputed what Cardinal Kasper said.

I recommend the following rebuttal article by Cardinal Avery Dulles, “Covenant and Mission,” America, October 21, 2002.

Moreover, it is well known that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) and Cardinal Kaspar have disagreed with regard to how Dominus Iesus is to be properly understood, Cardinal Ratzinger’s interpretation being more convincing to me as it was authored under his authority as prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith.
Dave,

If we can’t listen to Cardinal Walter Kasper (as he has no authority)…then why can we listen to Cardinal Avery Dulles?

There’s nothing but confusion here…but it is not confusion from Rome…it’s confusion between what Rome says and what Catholics who favor tradition believe. Let Benedict XVI sort this out…he should be pressed to clarify this issue.

SFD
 
Dave,

If we can’t listen to Cardinal Walter Kasper (as he has no authority)…then why can we listen to Cardinal Avery Dulles?

There’s nothing but confusion here…but it is not confusion from Rome…it’s confusion between what Rome says and what Catholics who favor tradition believe. Let Benedict XVI sort this out…he should be pressed to clarify this issue.

SFD
Sorry, I was still editing my post when you replied to it. Please read it again.

Dominus Iesus was an Act of the Apostolic See. Not everything a cardinal says is to be understood as an Act of the Apostolic See. As you know, doctrine and dogma differs from theological opinion.

The ordinary teaching of the Church comes to me from the 1) Roman Pontiff, 2) my diocesan bishop, and 3) my parish priest. These are who I am bound to submit to (cf. Heb 13:17). When neither Cardinal Dulles nor Cardinal Kaspar are acting in this ecclesiastical “chain of command,” their “quotes” may (or may not be) edifying, but they are certainly not doctrinally binding.

Those who present this as “confusion from Rome” ought to have a better understanding of Catholic theology before making such absurd claims. There has always been confusion in the Church, as was pointed out by the early father’s and their teaching on apokatastasis. However, the writings of clergy do not constitute the deposit of faith. One ought to understand and assent to Catholic doctrine according to the mind of the Roman Pontiff, who can never promulgate heresy as an Acta Apostolicae Sedis.
 
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