A Contradiction?

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On this day of all days, on Divine Mercy Sunday, some choose to dig in their heels and insist on the strictest justice to the point of denying (or ignoring) the Church’s teachings regarding Baptism in its varied forms. It’s almost firghtening to contemplate it.
 
catharina said:
On this day of all days, on Divine Mercy Sunday, some choose to dig in their heels and insist on the strictest justice to the point of denying (or ignoring) the Church’s teachings regarding Baptism in its varied forms. It’s almost firghtening to contemplate it.
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:rolleyes: I know, I just don’t get this at all. The Church has many in depth teachings regarding all these things, but everyone chooses to ignore the vast majority of them for their own pet version of Truth.

Maybe that’s the catch word right there, depth. :rolleyes:
 
Jeanette_L said:
:rolleyes: I know, I just don’t get this at all. The Church has many in depth teachings regarding all these things, but everyone chooses to ignore the vast majority of them for their own pet version of Truth.

Maybe that’s the catch word right there, depth. :rolleyes:
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Maybe that is the keyword: depth. Yet it’s just as likely that invincible Simplicity (opposite of duplicity) would lead one to an embrace of the truth. Perhaps some like their “depth” soaked in confusion, anger, confrontation and angst?
 
JReducation said:
Mother Teresa publically said and wrote, as well as included it in the rule for the Sisters:

“It doesn’t make a difference if one is Mulsim, Hindu, Christian or Communist. We are all brothers and sisters. We are called to see Jesus in everyone. Jesus says ‘I thirst’ for food, shelter, love, dignity and God’s love. The Missionaries of Charity are to bring Christ’s love to anyone who is among the poorest of the poor, no matter who they are or what they believe. We leave those things up to God.”
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I do not believe I ever stated that we as Catholics are to withhold help to those outside the Church.

Here is the homily by Pope Benedict then Card – just before he was elected to the papacy.

VATICAN CITY, APRIL 19, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Here is a translation of the homily delivered Monday by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger during the Mass “for the election of the Roman Pontiff” in St. Peter’s Basilica, before the conclave.

zenit.org/article-12791?l=english

How many winds of doctrine we have known in these last decades, how many ideological currents, how many fashions of thought? The small boat of thought of many Christians has often remained agitated by the waves, tossed from one extreme to the other: from Marxism to liberalism, to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism, etc.
Every day new sects are born and we see realized what St. Paul says on the deception of men, on the cunning that tends to lead into error (cf. Ephesians 4:14). To have a clear faith, according to the creed of the Church, is often labeled as fundamentalism. While relativism, that is, allowing oneself to be carried about with every wind of “doctrine,” seems to be the only attitude that is fashionable. A dictatorship of relativism is being constituted that recognizes nothing as absolute and which only leaves the “I” and its whims as the ultimate measure.

We have another measure: the Son of God, true man. He is the measure of true humanism. “Adult” is not a faith that follows the waves in fashion and the latest novelty. Adult and mature is a faith profoundly rooted in friendship with Christ. This friendship opens us to all that is good and gives us the measure to discern between what is true and what is false, between deceit and truth.

We must mature in this adult faith; we must lead the flock of Christ to this faith. And this faith, the only faith, creates unity and takes place in charity. St. Paul offers us a beautiful phrase, in opposition to the continual ups and downs of those who are like children tossed by the waves, to bring about truth in charity, as fundamental formula of Christian existence. Truth and charity coincide in Christ. In the measure that we come close to Christ, also in our life, truth and charity are fused. Charity without truth would be blind; truth without charity would be like “a clanging cymbal” (1 Corinthians 13:1).
 
CentralFLJames said:
Dustin, you speak a lot of truth here. But this is Divine Mercy Sunday and God’s Mercy is for ALL of humanity. We Catholics can invoke this Grace for the entire planet. And just as you say, God in his infinite and timeless omnipotence can see our prayers today as if spoken just at the moment prior to death in a long past event iust as if we stood right at that person’s bedside then and prayed for their mercy. I think it would be a good Catholic gesture for you to offer JR’s family the benefit of your spiritual piety and grace to pray on their behalf.

All of us have regrets that we did not have more influence or said more prayers for a departed loved one. It is AGONIZING to think of a loved one who may have been denied Heaven and cast away for eternity becuase they did not have an exterior indications of accepting Jesus. But ONLY God knows the heart as I am sure you are aware. And ONLY God can project His saving grace to help such people. Let’s TRUST in God to “do the right thing”. Let’s do what Sister Faustina told us we must do today - Let’s invoke Jesus’ Infinite Divine Mercy and TRUST in Him.

Please today join your prays to mine for JR’s family that God saw into the future at the time of their deaths to see our prayers for Divine Mercy today. Let us bring God’s Mercy to others. JR is committed 100% to God and Jesus and is vibrant part of Christ’ Church. He is a brother. Let us pray for Him and His beloved family.

Peace,
James
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Thank you James. Knowing how much my family loved God and how faithful they were, I can’t imagine God not showing them any mercy at the last moment of life. Above all, I can’t believe that God would allow a little boy who was brain dead to die without his merciful embrace.

Apparently some people here have never had to pull the plug on their seven-year old son. I hope that you never have to go through that. I did.

To hear even the most remote suggestion that such a child is not in Christ’s arms is so beneath everything that I embraced when I became a Catholic, that I find it frightening.

The one thing that I always remember was how many Jews were martyrs for their faith and how our Holy Father John Paul II recognized this martyrdom. It was such a blessing to hear the Pope acknowledge that these were martyrs. I gave me a sense of faith and trust i the mercy of God as he poured it out through his Church.

I am also remnded of Mother Teresa who said to her sisters, “It does not matter whether a person is a Christian, Muslim, Jew or Hindu as long as they are good Christians, Muslims, Jews or Hindus.” If this were heresy, why are we canonizing her?

JR 🙂
 
Walking_Home said:
Mercy and Truth go hand in hand.
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You need to answer to your conscience why are we Catholics canonizing someone who said

"It doesn’t matter if one is a Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Jew. What matters to Christ is that you are a good Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Jew. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The rest we leave up to God’s mercy. Our mission is to take care of Christ’s sufferings here on earth?

Was she a heretic or a saint?

JR 🙂

You can find this quote on youtube or in her writings.
 
Walking_Home said:
I do not believe I ever stated that we as Catholics are to withhold help to those outside the Church.
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Here is what you said
To feed the flesh without feeding the soul is an error. The flesh dies – the soul continues to live. We cannot feed the flesh and leave the soul in starvation of Christ. It is not about only embracing our Lord for our own — but it teaching to others the true light and freedom they gain by embracing Christ.
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To which I have posted three times that Mother Teresa said and I repeat

It doesn’t matter if one is a Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Jew. What matters is that one be a good Christian, Mulim, Hindu or Jew. The rest is up to God’s mercy.

I asked you, why are we canonizing her?

Is she a saint or heretic?

I know what the Cardinal Ratzinger said at the mass. However, he’s has not been beatified and is not about to be canonize. Mother Teresa is and it looks like he’s the one who’s goiing to do it. He has already made clear his intention to speeding up the process for Mother Teresa and John Paul II or John Paul the Great as he has dubbed him.

Is she a saint or a heretic?

JR 🙂
 
Walking_Home said:
I do not believe I ever stated that we as Catholics are to withhold help to those outside the Church.

Here is the homily by Pope Benedict then Card – just before he was elected to the papacy.

VATICAN CITY, APRIL 19, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Here is a translation of the homily delivered Monday by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger during the Mass “for the election of the Roman Pontiff” in St. Peter’s Basilica, before the conclave.

zenit.org/article-12791?l=english

How many winds of doctrine we have known in these last decades, how many ideological currents, how many fashions of thought? The small boat of thought of many Christians has often remained agitated by the waves, tossed from one extreme to the other: from Marxism to liberalism, to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism, etc.
Every day new sects are born and we see realized what St. Paul says on the deception of men, on the cunning that tends to lead into error (cf. Ephesians 4:14). To have a clear faith, according to the creed of the Church, is often labeled as fundamentalism. While relativism, that is, allowing oneself to be carried about with every wind of “doctrine,” seems to be the only attitude that is fashionable. A dictatorship of relativism is being constituted that recognizes nothing as absolute and which only leaves the “I” and its whims as the ultimate measure.

We have another measure: the Son of God, true man. He is the measure of true humanism. “Adult” is not a faith that follows the waves in fashion and the latest novelty. Adult and mature is a faith profoundly rooted in friendship with Christ. This friendship opens us to all that is good and gives us the measure to discern between what is true and what is false, between deceit and truth.

We must mature in this adult faith; we must lead the flock of Christ to this faith. And this faith, the only faith, creates unity and takes place in charity. St. Paul offers us a beautiful phrase, in opposition to the continual ups and downs of those who are like children tossed by the waves, to bring about truth in charity, as fundamental formula of Christian existence. Truth and charity coincide in Christ. In the measure that we come close to Christ, also in our life, truth and charity are fused. Charity without truth would be blind; truth without charity would be like “a clanging cymbal” (1 Corinthians 13:1).
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Pope Bendict XVI would clearly agree that any would take it upon himself or herself to pass God’s judgment on another soul is promoting the very antithesis of Christian faith.

Truth without charity - so obvious.
God’s mercy is incomprehensible. Truth and charity - together.
 
JReducation said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post
Mercy and Truth go hand in hand.

You need to answer to your conscience why are we Catholics canonizing someone who said

"It doesn’t matter if one is a Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Jew. What matters to Christ is that you are a good Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Jew. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The rest we leave up to God’s mercy. Our mission is to take care of Christ’s sufferings here on earth?

Was she a heretic or a saint?

JR 🙂

You can find this quote on youtube or in her writings.
Click to expand...
Here is an interview with Mother Teresa–you apparently missed. Seems Mother Teresa’s objective – was to lead others to Christ.

time.com/time/reports/motherteresa/t891204.html

Q. Friends of yours say you are disappointed that your work has not brought more conversions in this great Hindu nation.

A. Missionaries don’t think of that. They only want to proclaim the word of God. Numbers have nothing to do with it. But the people are putting prayer into action by coming and serving the people. Everywhere people are helping. There may not be a big conversion like that, but we do not know what is happening in the soul.

QWhat do you think of Hinduism?

A.I love all religions, but I am in love with my own.

Q .And they should love Jesus too?

A. **Naturally, if they want peace, if they want joy, let them find Jesus. **If people become better Hindus, better Muslims, better Buddhists by our acts of love, then there is something else growing there. They come closer and closer to God. When they come closer, they have to choose.
 
catharina said:
Pope Bendict XVI would clearly agree that any would take it upon himself or herself to pass God’s judgment on another soul is promoting the very antithesis of Christian faith.

Truth without charity - so obvious.
God’s mercy is incomprehensible. Truth and charity - together.
Click to expand...
More likely he would agree–that teaching the Truth is not judgment and he would have a big problem with relativism and indifferentism.
 
Jeanette_L said:
If Christ has chosen to save a soul at the moment of death without our being able to perceive a conversion prior to, is it not presumptuous of us to say this cannot be?
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Jeanette,

We agree with the Church that the Good Lord can save a soul by a special extraordinary grace of conversion at the last moment of their lives.

The error we argue against, and I’m getting the idea that you might agree, is the notion that a special extraordinary grace of conversion is not needed.

This is a dreadful, damnable heresy. And many a soul has been caught in its snare.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
Walking_Home said:
Here is an interview with Mother Teresa–you apparently missed. Seems Mother Teresa’s objective – was to lead others to Christ.

time.com/time/reports/motherteresa/t891204.html

Q. Friends of yours say you are disappointed that your work has not brought more conversions in this great Hindu nation.

A. Missionaries don’t think of that. They only want to proclaim the word of God. Numbers have nothing to do with it. But the people are putting prayer into action by coming and serving the people. Everywhere people are helping. There may not be a big conversion like that, but we do not know what is happening in the soul.

QWhat do you think of Hinduism?

A.I love all religions, but I am in love with my own.

Q .And they should love Jesus too?

A. **Naturally, if they want peace, if they want joy, let them find Jesus. **If people become better Hindus, better Muslims, better Buddhists by our acts of love, then there is something else growing there. They come closer and closer to God. When they come closer, they have to choose.
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So obviously Mother never felt the need that you feel to shove Christian truths down people’s throats. She allowed Christ to work through her charity and mercy and eventually the final choice was between the soul and Christ.

In the meantime, she and her missionaries just served.

You may want to be quiet for a while and take up serving like Mother did.

You would probably do more good and less harm to the Catholic faith than you are doing now. Right now, you’re making the Catholic faith look like a faith of arrogant bullies.

Mother made presented it as it truly is, a faith of love and mercy. Like her father St. Francis, she was prudent. She knew the right way to bring souls to Christ.

Some people don’t have the same degree of prudence.

Take some lessons from her.

JR 🙂
 
Walking_Home said:
More likely he would agree–that teaching the Truth is not judgment and he would have a big problem with relativism and indifferentism.
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It seems you like to argue for the sake of argument. You’ve made that clear so many times. You call Mother Teresa’s holiness into question although she lived a life of charity in a vowed life. Now you are her spokesman.

Your need to criticize others for any reason, for no reason, is deadly. I support Benedict’s statements. I don’t think you do.

Rather you seem to have embraced relativism and indifferentism.

“Walking Home” as the authority.
Not in my life. (Deo gratias.)
 
DustinsDad said:
Jeanette,

We agree with the Church that the Good Lord can save a soul by a special extraordinary grace of conversion at the last moment of their lives.

The error we argue against, and I’m getting the idea that you might agree, is the notion that a special extraordinary grace of conversion is not needed.

This is a dreadful, damnable heresy. And many a soul has been caught in its snare.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
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re this: “The error we argue against, and I’m getting the idea that you might agree, is the notion that a special extraordinary grace of conversion is not needed.” NO ONE has argued this notion here except you. You seem to imagine such error is everywhere.
 
JReducation said:
So obviously Mother never felt the need that you feel to shove Christian truths down people’s throats. She allowed Christ to work through her charity and mercy and eventually the final choice was between the soul and Christ.

In the meantime, she and her missionaries just served.

You may want to be quiet for a while and take up serving like Mother did.

You would probably do more good and less harm to the Catholic faith than you are doing now. Right now, you’re making the Catholic faith look like a faith of arrogant bullies.

Mother made presented it as it truly is, a faith of love and mercy. Like her father St. Francis, she was prudent. She knew the right way to bring souls to Christ.

Some people don’t have the same degree of prudence.

Take some lessons from her.

JR 🙂
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She said **proclaim **the word of God and putting it into action .
I guess by your definition – our own Lord and God —“shoved” the truth down peoples throats. And the Apostles and Saints kept on “shoving”.
 
catharina said:
It seems you like to argue for the sake of argument. You’ve made that clear so many times. You call Mother Teresa’s holiness into question although she lived a life of charity in a vowed life. Now you are her spokesman.

Your need to criticize others for any reason, for no reason, is deadly. I support Benedict’s statements. I don’t think you do.

Rather you seem to have embraced relativism and indifferentism.

“Walking Home” as the authority.
Not in my life. (Deo gratias.)
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No – I don’t argue for the sake of argument — you have taken that spot well enough.
 
catharina said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post
No – I don’t argue for the sake of argument — you have taken that spot well enough.

Ahhhh - you just did so.

You poor soul.
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I am not the one following protestant theology and divorcing our Lord from the Church. So go take a look in the mirror.
 
DustinsDad said:
Jeanette,

We agree with the Church that the Good Lord can save a soul by a special extraordinary grace of conversion at the last moment of their lives.

The error we argue against, and I’m getting the idea that you might agree, is the notion that a special extraordinary grace of conversion is not needed.

This is a dreadful, damnable heresy. And many a soul has been caught in its snare.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
Click to expand...
I’m not sure I understand where you think that any of us here have ever thought or proclaimed that this act of grace is anything but extraordinary. It is for all of us. For you, for me for every soul who receives it, no matter when or where.

I think you completely misunderstand any and all of our positions on grace and mercy. It is only by way of Christ Crucified and that one saving act alone that any of the world will be given grace unto salvation.

Maybe you have been arguing with us for no good reason at all. 🤷
 
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