A Correlation between Secularism and Tyrany

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Pretty incredible how a mindset that claims objective morality doesn’t exist always seems to find that any objection to that view is objectively evil. Whereas, any actions by themselves are perfectly relative to what they can think of in their head to step around the situation entirely.
 
Hokomai said:
Done. Please explain.
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tonyrey’s #5 states that Dawkins claimed that he would outlaw religion if he held a major political office. You subsequently argued that Dawkins is not looking to take a political office. You argued against a point that tonyrey did not make, hence “Oh beloved irony.”
 
Hokomai said:
A most interesting thread. At the risk of lowering its intellectual tone, can I ask however it would be possible, no matter how many atheist tyrants were found, for their evil deeds to even begin to match the abominable deeds carried out by theists directly for their religion, or in direct conscious implementation of them? 9/11; the recent wars in the former Yugoslavia, the atrocities of the Catholic Croatian State in World War ll, the crusades, the genocide of heretics from early times, the Hindu/Muslim atrocities accompanying Indian and Pakistan independence . . .
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The inquisition was actually quite lenient compared to civil courts and no person was ever executed by them only the civil or royal courts did that after the inquisitors did everything in their power to prevent that. (I’ll leave the discussion of other
Incidents to someone more succinct than I )
Shalom
 
abucs said:
“But there will never be any possibility of National Socialism’s setting out to ape religion by establishing a form of worship. Its one ambition must be scientifically to construct a doctrine that is nothing more than a homage to reason.”

Adolf Hitler. (page 39, Hitler’s Table Talk, 1941-1944: His Private Conversations).

I think when people have set out to create a state-based community where religion is seen as a hindrance or opponent then the historical record has been tyranny followed by either complete destruction or upon recognition of the failure of own its secular goals an eventual request of help from the religious (such as in modern China, Russia, Romania, Portugal etc).
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👍 Indisputable.
 
Alberti_Devoveo said:
tonyrey’s #5 states that Dawkins claimed that he would outlaw religion if he held a major political office. You subsequently argued that Dawkins is not looking to take a political office. You argued against a point that tonyrey did not make, hence “Oh beloved irony.”
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Thank you. 🙂
 
Alberti_Devoveo said:
tonyrey’s #5 states that Dawkins claimed that he would outlaw religion if he held a major political office. You subsequently argued that Dawkins is not looking to take a political office. You argued against a point that tonyrey did not make, hence “Oh beloved irony.”
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You are wrong. Toneyrey said:
Evidence of such intolerance is the claim by Richard Dawkins that religious education is child abuse - and would therefore be abolished and forbidden by law if he and/or those who agree with him were in power.
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I said:
Richard Dawkins claims not that religious education is child abuse, but that telling children that certain beliefs are true (such as that their non-believing parent will go to hell) are child abuse, because of the terror inflicted on children by the infliction of such beliefs, without evidence. I think I have read everything Dawkins has published on religion, and I do not recall him ever saying that he sought power, or sought power for those ‘like him’. I have also never read him saying anything other than that he sought a democratic majority on his ideas. Dawkins says a lot that Catholics can disagree with. Why not criticise him for things he actually says?
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This directly addresses the point made by Toneyrey, which is inaccurately summarized above by you. A ‘straw man’ argument is not created by making any comment wider than the point being responded to.
 
Hokomai said:
You are wrong.
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To set the record straight here is my original statement:

Speaking to the American Humanist Association, Dawkins once said, “I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world’s great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate.” salon.com/2006/10/13/dawkins_3
Such fanaticism is likely to lead to tyranny if it gets the opportunity… Do you think he would hesitate to do his best to eradicate religion if he had the opportunity?

There is not the slightest doubt about the answer to that question! In the UK Christians have lost their jobs for wearing a tiny cross. The Catholic Adoption Society has been forced to close because it is opposed to the adoption of Catholic babies by homosexual couples. These are just two examples of secular intolerance on the pretext of freedom of expression!
 
tonyrey said:
To set the record straight here is my original statement:

Speaking to the American Humanist Association, Dawkins once said, “I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world’s great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate.” salon.com/2006/10/13/dawkins_3
Such fanaticism is likely to lead to tyranny if it gets the opportunity… Do you think he would hesitate to do his best to eradicate religion if he had the opportunity?

There is not the slightest doubt about the answer to that question! In the UK Christians have lost their jobs for wearing a tiny cross. The Catholic Adoption Society has been forced to close because it is opposed to the adoption of Catholic babies by homosexual couples. These are just two examples of secular intolerance on the pretext of freedom of expression!
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Ummm - no - your original post was the one you made prior to this, to which I responded.
 
Hokomai said:
Speaking to the American Humanist Association, Dawkins once said, “I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world’s great evils
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You are evading the issue:

If “faith is one of the world’s great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate” then religious education must also "one of the world’s great evils" which should be eradicated by every possible means.

There is abundant evidence of this mentality on this very forum in the aggressive statements made by some atheists.

It is clear from the examples I have given that there is a distinct correlation between secularism and tyranny - which is not surprising because the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity are based on the teaching of Jesus that we are all children of the same Father.
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tonyrey said:
You are evading the issue:

If “faith is one of the world’s great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate” then religious education must also "one of the world’s great evils" which should be eradicated by every possible means.

There is abundant evidence of this mentality on this very forum in the aggressive statements made by some atheists.

It is clear from the examples I have given that there is a distinct correlation between secularism and tyranny - which is not surprising because the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity are based on the teaching of Jesus that we are all children of the same Father.
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Ummm - ‘liberty, equality and fraternity’ is the famous slogan of the French revolution, an event not usually much liked by Catholics, and rarely attributed to Jesus.

If you would like to clearly state an issue I should address I would be happy to do so, but I cannot understand from your post which issue(s) you feel are being evaded.
 
Hokomai Ummm - ‘liberty, equality and fraternity’ is the famous slogan of the French revolution, an event not usually much liked by Catholics, and rarely attributed to Jesus.
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What people dislike and fail to do has no bearing on the truth! The only rational basis of the principles of liberty, equality and **fraternity **is the teaching of Jesus that we are all children of the same Father.
If you would like to clearly state an issue I should address I would be happy to do so, but I cannot understand from your post which issue(s) you feel are being evaded.
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It seems pellucidly clear enough to me:

1.“faith is one of the world’s great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate”.
  1. Religious education promotes and promulgates faith.
  2. Therefore religious education also** “one of the world’s great evils**, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate”.
  3. Therefore religious education should also be eradicated - even by using evil methods if they are considered to be lesser evils than faith.
 
tonyrey said:
What people dislike and fail to do has no bearing on the truth! The only rational basis of the principles of liberty, equality and **fraternity **is the teaching of Jesus that we are all children of the same Father.

It seems pellucidly clear enough to me:

1.“faith is one of the world’s great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate”.
  1. Religious education promotes and promulgates faith.
  2. Therefore religious education also** “one of the world’s great evils**, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate”.
  3. Therefore religious education should also be eradicated - even by using evil methods if they are considered to be lesser evils than faith.
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I’m sure it does seem clear to you, but it is not clear to me. You appear to be saying that because someone wants to eradicate religion, they must accept the use of evil means to do so. That is not clear to me, and I cannot see why it should be clear to anyone.

You might assist me understand your position if you pointed to advocacy of liberty, fraternity and equality, in the sense it was coined in the French revolution, in the teaching of Jesus, or in scripture, or the teaching of the Church.
 
Hokomai said:
What people dislike and fail to do has no bearing on the truth! The only rational basis
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If you are confronted with one of the world’s great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus what would you do if you were in power?
You might assist me understand your position if you pointed to advocacy of liberty, fraternity and equality, in the sense it was coined in the French revolution, in the teaching of Jesus, or in scripture, or the teaching of the Church.
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The meaning of fraternity (brotherhood) and Father are unequivocal.
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aragonjohn1 said:
The inquisition was actually quite lenient compared to civil courts and no person was ever executed by them only the civil or royal courts did that after the inquisitors did everything in their power to prevent that. (I’ll leave the discussion of other
Incidents to someone more succinct than I )
Shalom
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It seems to me one can’t escape noticing Yahweh’s directive in Exodus 22:18 (which commands the execution of witches) when trying to understand the mentality that existed during the period of religious inquisitions.

Unfortunately, those who were burnt are unable to voice an opinion about your claim of leniency.

Forgive me, but positions such as these, which attempt to ameliorate atrocious actions against what were presumably victimless crimes (in the case of witchcraft) is somewhat akin to those who try every yoga trick in the book to twist the idea that biblically-sponsored slavery wasn’t so bad either.

I’m not buying it. Secular humanist values says burning people for thought crimes is always wrong and slavery is always wrong.
 
Sample said:
It seems to me one can’t escape noticing Yahweh’s directive in Exodus 22:18 (which commands the execution of witches) when trying to understand the mentality that existed during the period of religious inquisitions.

Unfortunately, those who were burnt are unable to voice an opinion about your claim of leniency.

Forgive me, but positions such as these, which attempt to ameliorate atrocious actions against what were presumably victimless crimes (in the case of witchcraft) is somewhat akin to those who try every yoga trick in the book to twist the idea that biblically-sponsored slavery wasn’t so bad either.

I’m not buying it. Secular humanist values says burning people for thought crimes is always wrong and slavery is always wrong.
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:clapping:
 
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